Desire/empathy and subjectivism

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Liverpool
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Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Liverpool »

Quick question, can you hold that morality is subjective but that reason is born out of your desires and/or empathy?

See I'm not sure that you could that subjectivism is true and that the source of your beliefs are fundamentally influenced greatly by your desires and/or empathy, that said from what I've read it's very much up for debate whether or not David Hume was a non-cognitive or cognitive.

This is why I'm unsure about this.
Liverpool
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Liverpool »

Can reason be entirely built on the back of desire and/or empathy?
Or just mostly but no entirely.

Cos I've seen Hume say things like "moral sentiments give rise to our beliefs"
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Liverpool wrote: March 30th, 2021, 11:09 am Can reason be entirely built on the back of desire and/or empathy?

I don't think it can, no.... 🤔
Pattern-chaser

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Kaz_1983
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Kaz_1983 »

It's a good question but if you want morality to be truth-apt then it's can't be solely on desire/empathy as they are neither true nor false and means that moral statements like "x is morally good" cannot be known. Which is what you seems to be saying.
popeye1945
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by popeye1945 »

[quote=Liverpool post_id=381115 time=1617116579 user_id=49017]
Quick question, can you hold that morality is subjective but that reason is born out of your desires and/or empathy?

See I'm not sure that you could that subjectivism is true and that the source of your beliefs are fundamentally influenced greatly by your desires and/or empathy, that said from what I've read it's very much up for debate whether or not David Hume was a non-cognitive or cognitive.

This is why I'm unsure about this.
[/quote]

Liverpool, The three things that motivate us into reaction is, pain, pleasure, and desire. Morality is founded upon the desire for well-being, to minimize pain and increase if possible pleasure. All meanings are subjective, compassion and empathy are emotions, and they arise when one identifies the self in other, It really is an expanded concept of self, when one can suffer with other/self, compassion arises. I believe that pain, pleasure, and desire are all emotions, morality is what you do with them. Morality is too self-interest, that is why it is reasonable to base morality upon our common biology, a morality of the body.
Tegularius
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Tegularius »

Reason IMHO can be divided into two main functions.

The objective to discover whatever truth is out there.

The subjective which it rationalizes into providing for its own life purposes or justifications, its truth aspect being immaterial and of no consequence.

The former is rule bound; the latter is extemporary being only a matter of perspective as life itself would have it.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Kaz_1983
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Kaz_1983 »

popeye1945 wrote: March 31st, 2021, 10:42 am The three things that motivate us into reaction is, pain, pleasure, and desire. Morality is founded upon the desire for well-being, to minimize pain and increase if possible pleasure. All meanings are subjective, compassion and empathy are emotions, and they arise when one identifies the self in other, It really is an expanded concept of self, when one can suffer with other/self, compassion arises. I believe that pain, pleasure, and desire are all emotions, morality is what you do with them. Morality is too self-interest, that is why it is reasonable to base morality upon our common biology, a morality of the body.
I suppose if you believe that it's reasonable to base morality upon "common biology" - does this mean morality only applies to humans beings?

See I'm not sure what you mean exactly, when you talk about how "morality is based upon human biology" - see for me, it seems that you agree that morality is founded solely on desire - I mean you did state that "morality is founded upon the desire for well-being" Unless you don't believe moral propositions hold truth value? It doesn't make sense, as desires themselves can't be true or false. Your stating that yes we desire well-being but because "our" biology proves that we desire well-being for a reason and science can verify that well-being is worth desiring...
popeye1945
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Kaz,
By common biology I refer to one carbon-based biology, there is only one biology, and all the other creatures on this planet are you're cousins and ancestors, and it is identity with other, other/selves by which empathy and compassion arise. Desire always has an object, meaning is always the property of a conscious subject, the object of desire when empathy and compassion arise is the relief of suffering. You might say that it is an expanded concept of the self which triggers empathy and compassion, without which, there would be no morality, as indeed in nature there is not. Morality arises with biology, forms into groups for mutual self-interest, and sometimes is not expanded to any greater range than the group, tribe, community.
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Belindi »

Sympathy, by which Hume meant empathy, is necessary but not sufficient for any form of reasoning whether reason be directed at truth, beauty, or goodness.
popeye1945
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by popeye1945 »

Belindi wrote: April 2nd, 2021, 4:02 am Sympathy, by which Hume meant empathy, is necessary but not sufficient for any form of reasoning whether reason be directed at truth, beauty, or goodness.
Hi Belindi
Empathy is a realization, a recognition that you in some sense are that other entity. I am not sure I am understanding you, but are you saying empathy is not material for thought? Without thought, there would be no reaction in this case. Perhaps its just a misunderstanding of terms, a difference in definitions. For me, sympathy to means love, probably in some sense of recognition as stated above.
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Alias »

Liverpool wrote: March 30th, 2021, 11:02 am Quick question, can you hold that morality is subjective but that reason is born out of your desires and/or empathy?
Neither. Morality is social; reason is a function of the brain. (So are desires and empathy.)

Hume may have been very clever and sensible, but he didn't get the chance to know a great deal about neuroscience.

It's not a good idea to take 200+ year old ideas too literally. You have to make allowance for the state of knowledge, the prevailing attitudes and assumptions that formed any thinker's environment in his own time and place. You have to consider a man's body of work in its own context. If some ideas survive this long after their originator's death, he's done very well at thinking outside the box, but you can't expect all of any long-dead philosopher's ideas to fit into this century and your own culture.
Belindi
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by Belindi »

popeye1945 wrote: April 2nd, 2021, 6:41 pm
Belindi wrote: April 2nd, 2021, 4:02 am Sympathy, by which Hume meant empathy, is necessary but not sufficient for any form of reasoning whether reason be directed at truth, beauty, or goodness.
Hi Belindi
Empathy is a realization, a recognition that you in some sense are that other entity. I am not sure I am understanding you, but are you saying empathy is not material for thought? Without thought, there would be no reaction in this case. Perhaps its just a misunderstanding of terms, a difference in definitions. For me, sympathy to means love, probably in some sense of recognition as stated above.
By empathy I mean what you say it is . To be that other entity the best way is to have knowledge about that other entity. I can give many examples of how knowledge of that other entity is necessary for helping that other entity. To me, sympathy means less than love; sympathy is only an emotionally warm feeling which unlike the more cerebral empathy does not add to knowledge of the other and is less likely to result in helpful action or advice than the more knowledgeable empathy.

But you may object that without the subjective sympathy, knowledge of the other entity can be used by malefactors such as political dictators, and criminals.So I concede that both empathy and sympathy are necessary for love.

Hume wrote 'sympathy' and although he was reputedly a warm -hearted man with many friends , he was also very cerebral and his usage of 'sympathy' is something like the modern usage of 'empathy' like how you defined it.
popeye1945
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Re: Desire/empathy and subjectivism

Post by popeye1945 »

Excellent, I like your definition over my own so, might have watch out for what a dictionary might mean not agreeing with either of us--LOL!!
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