Morality and "the meaning of life"

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Nick_A
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by Nick_A »

popeye1945 wrote: April 14th, 2021, 12:57 pm True, but the questions remain: what is conscience, who is capable of experiencing it, and what prevents us from experiencing objective conscience?
1948
"One never goes wrong following his feeling. I don’t mean emotions, I mean feeling, for feeling and intuition are one.” Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 95. – conversation on September 14, 1948)
We can be free of the emotions of subjective morality but this doesn't mean freedom from conscience. Actually freedom from emotional morality can lead to the the experience of universal objective conscience.
Hi Nick,

You need to educate me here, I don't really have a handle on what you're talking about. What might universal objective conscience look like? It is an emotion I get that but doesn't conscience, in general, depend upon one's definition of one's self, if you do something out of character, out of your general definition of self it would be disturbing and require a re-defination--no more Mr nice guy! Are you familiar with Jung's collective unconscious, is it similar to that or would it be incorporated within that concept?
[/quote]

This is hrd to explain if you are not familiar with it. Here is a link that explains little of what I mean

http://www.scandalon.co.uk/philosophy/plato_good.htm
Like the Sun in the Allegory of the Cave, the Good illuminates the other Forms. We can see that Justice, for example, is an aspect of Goodness. And again, we know that we have never seen, with our senses, any examples of perfect goodness, but we have seen plenty of particular examples which approximate goodness, and we recognise them as ‘good’ when we see them because of the way in which they correspond to our innate notion of the Form of the Good.

By Plato’s logic, real knowledge becomes, in the end, a knowledge of goodness; and this is why philosophers are in the best position to rule. The one who has philosophical knowledge of the Good is the one who is fit to rule. Plato’s belief in the fitness to rule of the philosopher is sometimes referred to as the ‘Philosopher King’ (even though Plato himself never used it).

Plato developed his Theory of Forms to the point where he divided existence into two realms. There is the world of sense experience (the ‘empirical’ world), where nothing ever stays the same but is always in the process of change. Experience of it gives rise to opinions. There is also a world which is outside space and time, which is not perceived through the senses, and in which everything is permanent and perfect or Ideal - the realm of the Forms. The empirical world shows only shadows and poor copies of these Forms, and so is less real than the world of the Forms themselves, because the Forms are eternal and immutable (unchanging), the proper objects of knowledge.
The GOOD IS. It is not limited to Man's interpretations. It is outside the limitations of space and time and our ability to sense. It includes the qualities of objective consciousness and objective conscience as ideas. Once the GOOD manifests itself within creation, these ideas manifest as qualities of phenomenon.

Justice as an idea beyond human conception is one thing while interpretations of justice is another. Objective consciousness includes all facts while objective conscience includes all values. We can measure facts but the human condition prevents a person from measuring objective values and their relationship to our Source. This is where humanity goes wrong. It begins to argue values and opinions rather than making the attempt at experiencing objective values through noesis
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
popeye1945
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by popeye1945 »

Nick,
Yes, Plato was a mystic, personally, I believe he leads prosperity astray in this regard. There is a wealth of wisdom to be had from Plato but this area is unfortunate. Sorry to rain on your parade but I am not inclined to mysticism, but as far as Plato is concern its only one aspect, one does throw the baby out with the bathwater. One quote I remember that seems mystic, but I believe enlightening is, "Do not mistake the image for the reality." With his perfect forms and their poorer imatations here on earth, it almost seems he was touching on the concept of apparent reality versus ultimate reality, but it doesn't quite make it.
Nick_A
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by Nick_A »

popeye1945 wrote: April 14th, 2021, 4:49 pm Nick,
Yes, Plato was a mystic, personally, I believe he leads prosperity astray in this regard. There is a wealth of wisdom to be had from Plato but this area is unfortunate. Sorry to rain on your parade but I am not inclined to mysticism, but as far as Plato is concern its only one aspect, one does throw the baby out with the bathwater. One quote I remember that seems mystic, but I believe enlightening is, "Do not mistake the image for the reality." With his perfect forms and their poorer imatations here on earth, it almost seems he was touching on the concept of apparent reality versus ultimate reality, but it doesn't quite make it.
That's OK. But so I can understand your position better, let me ask if you believe there is an objective universal meaning and purpose to life as opposed to our subjective acquired beliefs? If you don't, does it bother you that there is no meaning and purpose to life? Is there any feeling of emptiness or does confidence in the human ability to reason compensate for any psychological doubts you may have?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
QuestionAll+Nothing
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by QuestionAll+Nothing »

The meaning of life is growth physical and psychological which is a result of (nature): a creative and controlling force in the universe and composing to form or put together. Yet from the aspect of (psychological): directed toward the will or toward the mind specifically in its conative function and yet related to (conation): an inclination such as an instinct, a drive, a wish, or a craving to act purposefully.
popeye1945
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by popeye1945 »

Nick,

Interesting. I guess I am a realist, I probably would be happier if I could believe in some religious fantasy but there you go, stuck with reality as I know it. No, I don't believe there is a meaning to life. I believe the various belief systems people embrace are divisive in nature and a danger to the modern world. May Ali loop off your head--lol!! What psychological doubts is it you speak of? Althrough I am in no way religious, the world itself is a wonderous place, if humanity could look upon this as sacred, it would go a long way to better the world.
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LuckyR
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by LuckyR »

popeye1945 wrote: April 14th, 2021, 5:38 am
LuckyR wrote: April 14th, 2021, 1:36 am To my mind science and morality are not competitors. One doesn't choose between them, as they are different, independent areas. The quote that science is without morality is true. Just as a hammer is neither moral nor immoral (though can be used in moral and immoral ways) science, for the purposes of this discussion, is like a tool that can be wielded.
Hi LuckR,
I agree, science and morality are not competitors, but in fact, science can be used to create a more rational morality than we presently have. The archaic systems of the past, really don't have a rational object for the focus of their moralities. Just as the physical world is meaningless, so too without the creative processes of consciousness there is no meaning to life. We bestow meaning upon the physical world as it relates to our own biology, apparent reality is a biological readout. Nothing in the world has meaning in and of itself, but only in relation to a conscious subject, this too applies to the individual, so in a very real sense, we are all we have. Seeing as we are all we have, should not the focus, the object of morality be our biology, our well-being. I find it difficult to understand how people could possibly disagree with this premise.
I agree, therefore to my mind it is legitimate to ask is the search for meaning a false trail? That is, life without a higher "meaning" shouldn't be viewed as a downgrade, rather as normal and "meaning" as a false upgrade.
"As usual... it depends."
popeye1945
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi LuckyR,
Yes, it would be a false upgrade, but I am afraid its too bitter a pill for most people to swallow. The futility of a quest for meaning in most cases just means looking for it in the wrong place, we must create it ourselves as we do all meaning.
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LuckyR
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by LuckyR »

popeye1945 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 3:56 am Hi LuckyR,
Yes, it would be a false upgrade, but I am afraid its too bitter a pill for most people to swallow. The futility of a quest for meaning in most cases just means looking for it in the wrong place, we must create it ourselves as we do all meaning.
Thus the creation of gods, religions and philosophies.
"As usual... it depends."
Nick_A
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by Nick_A »

LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 11:07 am
popeye1945 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 3:56 am Hi LuckyR,
Yes, it would be a false upgrade, but I am afraid its too bitter a pill for most people to swallow. The futility of a quest for meaning in most cases just means looking for it in the wrong place, we must create it ourselves as we do all meaning.
Thus the creation of gods, religions and philosophies.
“A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.” ~ Einstein
Yet it does seem that at the same time it is the height of hubris to assume that this extraordinary living machine functioning as an organic whole has no purpose. It is like someone seeing a car for the first time says we can't eat it and it is too big to hit someone over the head so useless as a weapon so it serves no purpose.

The logical approach would be to ask how I can understand this car and who or what it serves. It would be the same to ask what this living machine called universe which dwarfs the earth in size and scope does and who or what this living machine serves. Yet many prefer to say that since I don't understand its purpose therefore it doesn't have one. It is the modern way but I don't see the logic of it.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
popeye1945
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by popeye1945 »

Lucky,
Yes, you have a valid point, the concepts we have are rather pathetic when faced with the awe which is the universe, but we can be reasonably sure that our faint attempt to anthropomorphize the cause as our present day religions have done is an offense to ones intelligence. Even at present quantum physics tells us of the mind blowing unity of the cosmos which questions the reality of space itself, looking more like a giant thought than anything else. At present however we know what we have done to the world of objects that show us no meaning other than their relations to us, what we experience becomes their meaning to us relative to our biology. Perhaps meaning in the sense of to serve is rather pathetic concept it self, that we might be stuff growing on a damp rock circling a ball of fire is a more pathetic understanding, wonder keeps us alive and in the quest.
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by Tegularius »

To derive meaning is a form of mental incest since we can never see beyond our own boundaries. Meaning can only be derived based on what is already known and familiar or in process of becoming so. Meaning is not some cosmic edition of the Dead Sea scroll buried somewhere within the caves of a black hole to be discovered by a more advanced civilization. The value of meaning is equivalent to the type of consciousness which engenders it and, as such, is always in a state of flux.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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LuckyR
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by LuckyR »

popeye1945 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 7:09 pm Lucky,
Yes, you have a valid point, the concepts we have are rather pathetic when faced with the awe which is the universe, but we can be reasonably sure that our faint attempt to anthropomorphize the cause as our present day religions have done is an offense to ones intelligence. Even at present quantum physics tells us of the mind blowing unity of the cosmos which questions the reality of space itself, looking more like a giant thought than anything else. At present however we know what we have done to the world of objects that show us no meaning other than their relations to us, what we experience becomes their meaning to us relative to our biology. Perhaps meaning in the sense of to serve is rather pathetic concept it self, that we might be stuff growing on a damp rock circling a ball of fire is a more pathetic understanding, wonder keeps us alive and in the quest.
If I understand you correctly, meaning could be similar to spiciness in the sense that it adds interest to life, rather than the traditional, pedantic concept of "Meaning". Sort of the way I used to prefer the Latin mass, because it was so theatrical and thus interesting. Even though I don't understand latin, thus it was more about the sizzle than the steak.
"As usual... it depends."
popeye1945
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Lucky,
Meaning is a cognitive assessment of the effect of an object upon one's biology, as in apparent reality being the biological readout of the effects of the surrounding environment. ? That is why there are two concepts of physical reality, our everyday experience which is termed apparent reality and the other ultimate reality. All things are vibrations and we only perceive a certain range of vibrations, so, the reason things appear as they do is that our biology is just so, a different biology experiences apparent reality very differently. Science has moved beyond our limitations with its modern devices, yet the info thus gleaned must still be interpreted through our human biology.
popeye1945
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by popeye1945 »

Nick,
It would seem I responded to your post thinking it was lucky sorry about that!!
popeye1945
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Re: Morality and "the meaning of life"

Post by popeye1945 »

QuestionAll,

Growth physical and psychological are not what we traditionally think of a meanings we use to understand the physical world, through they are indeed meaningful. I am thinking a good book for you to read is Schopenhaur's " The world as will and representation", it seems in line with your thoughts on instinct, drive, a wish, or a craving to act purposefully.
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