Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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BobS
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by BobS »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:49 pmYou got straight to the evidence twice? I see.
My, you generate a lot of messages without saying anything.

It’s a good thing that you consider OCD a disparaging term only as applied to word counts, and not message counts. Otherwise your self-esteem would take a serious hit.
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LuckyR
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:15 am
LuckyR wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:00 am You are correct vaccines are 98% effective, not 100%. However only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective. But where you lose your train of logic, is the part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune. BTW there are about as many post infection immune as there are vaccinated immune, though how folks get their immunity doesn't really matter, immune systems don't look at CDC cards.
It bloody well does matter. For folks to get their immunity through infection, some percentage of them must get very sick and some must die in the process, and society must suffer the economic and emotional toll of those illnesses and deaths. By contrast, virtually nobody dies from getting the vaccine. And the unvaccinated are the breeding ground for variants of covid like the new Delta variant, that tend to be more deadly, more easily transmitted, and may be resistant to current vaccines or methods of treatment. Keeping a large pool of unvaccinated people available for easy infection keeps the virus alive and able to change and get stronger.

We lost more people to covid already than we lost to WWII. Did it "not really matter" that we lost all those soldiers in the war? Say that using ration cards or making other small sacrifices on the home front held a serious prospect of ending the war? Would it have been too much imposition on our freedoms to ask those who had not yet had a bomb fall on their head to make those sacrifices? Can you imagine people back then protesting that they had a right to use resources that were needed for the soldiers at the front? Yet, we face a greater toll in lost lives today, and you want to argue that we shouldn't make a small sacrifice that has a good chance of removing the threat?
We are failing to communicate. You are referring to future infections and I am speaking of past infections.

There are already about 150 million post infection immune people in the US, if you believe the experts that 3 out of 4 infections were never documented with a positive test result.

Add to that 150 million, another 150 million fully vaccinated and 20 million partially vaccinated. Subtract several 10s of millions who overlap the groups and we are at a very high percentage of the total population of 332 million who are currently immune (one way or another). Thus there just isn't a huge population of the nonimmune right now. There are some, but too few to make new variants here. Those are going to come from overseas, where the numbers of post infectious immune is small and the vaccinated are few, say like Japan.
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:16 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am You opined that "you're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself)", and that is untrue. A pool of unvaccinated people opposes the gains we make by having everyone vaccinated. It allows the virus to circulate, and to mutate. Vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the continuing presence of the virus, sustained by a pool of unvaccinated people, allows it to spread back into the vaccinated population more quickly and easily than if everyone was vaccinated. So the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
LuckyR wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:00 am You are correct vaccines are 98% effective, not 100%. However only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective. But where you lose your train of logic, is the part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune. BTW there are about as many post infection immune as there are vaccinated immune, though how folks get their immunity doesn't really matter, immune systems don't look at CDC cards.
"The part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune" is my fault: I wasn't clear. I was referring to the virus moving from the unvaccinated magically back to the vaccinated people. As you said, quite rightly, "only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective". Our current vaccines are around 95% effective against the alpha variant, which means that 1 in 20 of the people who would otherwise have become infected actually become infected.

The existence of a pool of vulnerable people, even if they suffer no symptoms themselves, enables the virus to remain in our population. It also (maybe) nurtures the development of vaccine-resistant variants. The longer the virus is alive and in our communities, the more likely this is:
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am ...the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
Several things:

First, we have both mentioned that the vaccines are less than 100% in preventing infection. Numbers vary with sources but depending on whether the endpoint is test positivity, clinical infection, serious infection or death the numbers vary fron the mid 90s to greater than 99%.

It just isn't worth chasing that last fraction of a percentage point, remember when this started zero percentage of the population were immune.

As it happens, places like the US, which has a high past infection rate and a high vaccination rate, especially among the most vulnerable, just isn't going to be the place where variants are going to have enough of a foothold to occur. Variants are going to happen in places with low past infection rates and low vaccination rates, since that's where the nonimmune folks are.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: June 30th, 2021, 3:33 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:16 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am You opined that "you're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself)", and that is untrue. A pool of unvaccinated people opposes the gains we make by having everyone vaccinated. It allows the virus to circulate, and to mutate. Vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the continuing presence of the virus, sustained by a pool of unvaccinated people, allows it to spread back into the vaccinated population more quickly and easily than if everyone was vaccinated. So the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
LuckyR wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:00 am You are correct vaccines are 98% effective, not 100%. However only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective. But where you lose your train of logic, is the part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune. BTW there are about as many post infection immune as there are vaccinated immune, though how folks get their immunity doesn't really matter, immune systems don't look at CDC cards.
"The part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune" is my fault: I wasn't clear. I was referring to the virus moving from the unvaccinated magically back to the vaccinated people. As you said, quite rightly, "only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective". Our current vaccines are around 95% effective against the alpha variant, which means that 1 in 20 of the people who would otherwise have become infected actually become infected.

The existence of a pool of vulnerable people, even if they suffer no symptoms themselves, enables the virus to remain in our population. It also (maybe) nurtures the development of vaccine-resistant variants. The longer the virus is alive and in our communities, the more likely this is:
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am ...the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
Several things:

First, we have both mentioned that the vaccines are less than 100% in preventing infection. Numbers vary with sources but depending on whether the endpoint is test positivity, clinical infection, serious infection or death the numbers vary fron the mid 90s to greater than 99%.
This is not relevant.
What is clear from the data is the because the body is prepared for an infection, when it does occur the vaccine prevents SERIOUS infection. SO hospital admission rates are way down.

It just isn't worth chasing that last fraction of a percentage point, remember when this started zero percentage of the population were immune.
No idea why you are saying that.

As it happens, places like the US, which has a high past infection rate and a high vaccination rate, especially among the most vulnerable, just isn't going to be the place where variants are going to have enough of a foothold to occur.
And yet the UK which is almost the same as the US is responsible for the Delta variant.
Variants are going to happen in places with low past infection rates and low vaccination rates, since that's where the nonimmune folks are.
Variants can happen in any host. SInce vaccinations do not stop infections, even vaccinated people can harbour a variant. Having been infected is no gurantee of avoiding a new infection, it just means that the infection will not be serious. And this is the case for people who have already been infected and those vaccinated.
Obviously the big danger areas for new variants is the non vaccinated world, which is more reason for a world vaccination programme, as new variants are eventually likely to completely invalidate the usefulness of present vaccines.
The lid is currently off the jar.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

BobS wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:50 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:49 pmYou got straight to the evidence twice? I see.
My, you generate a lot of messages without saying anything.

It’s a good thing that you consider OCD a disparaging term only as applied to word counts, and not message counts. Otherwise your self-esteem would take a serious hit.
Nice to see that you can write a post that's not a display of logorrhea. How about getting straight to the evidence without editorial nonsense first?
BobS
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by BobS »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 30th, 2021, 8:05 am Nice to see that you can write a post that's not a display of logorrhea. How about getting straight to the evidence without editorial nonsense first?
Post number 5660 by a guy who complains about too much talk.

And still not responding to what's already been said.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

BobS wrote: June 30th, 2021, 2:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 30th, 2021, 8:05 am Nice to see that you can write a post that's not a display of logorrhea. How about getting straight to the evidence without editorial nonsense first?
Post number 5660 by a guy who complains about too much talk.

And still not responding to what's already been said.
Is the above easier than getting straight to the supposed evidence?
BobS
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Joined: February 12th, 2021, 2:14 pm

Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by BobS »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 30th, 2021, 4:21 pmIs the above easier than getting straight to the supposed evidence?
Up to Post No. 5662, again without saying anything of substance. Just condescension as a substitute for thought.

I've lost track. Is this the third straight post in which, in lieu of saying anything responsive, you've mumbled something about going "straight" to the evidence? Seems pretty compulsive.

Multiple messages in the past, I said that I considered our so-called "discussion" at an end, because you were refusing to say anything responsive. That still stands. What's gone on since then isn't a "discussion." All that's gone on are your continued messages that are the equivalent of a tape loop, and my amused responses. If you want to keep it up in this vein, fine. If you want to give up, fine. If you want to give me a response that actually says something, I'll respond in kind. Your choice. I'm not waiting with bated breath however this proceeds or doesn’t proceed.

It shouldn't be hard for you to find the two messages in which I recited some of the evidence. The fact that those messages also discussed how I thought the evidence tied together and lead to my conclusion hardly means that evidence wasn't mentioned. Your tape loop doesn't change what's there in my messages for all to see.
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LuckyR
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 30th, 2021, 4:31 am
LuckyR wrote: June 30th, 2021, 3:33 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:16 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am You opined that "you're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself)", and that is untrue. A pool of unvaccinated people opposes the gains we make by having everyone vaccinated. It allows the virus to circulate, and to mutate. Vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the continuing presence of the virus, sustained by a pool of unvaccinated people, allows it to spread back into the vaccinated population more quickly and easily than if everyone was vaccinated. So the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
LuckyR wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:00 am You are correct vaccines are 98% effective, not 100%. However only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective. But where you lose your train of logic, is the part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune. BTW there are about as many post infection immune as there are vaccinated immune, though how folks get their immunity doesn't really matter, immune systems don't look at CDC cards.
"The part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune" is my fault: I wasn't clear. I was referring to the virus moving from the unvaccinated magically back to the vaccinated people. As you said, quite rightly, "only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective". Our current vaccines are around 95% effective against the alpha variant, which means that 1 in 20 of the people who would otherwise have become infected actually become infected.

The existence of a pool of vulnerable people, even if they suffer no symptoms themselves, enables the virus to remain in our population. It also (maybe) nurtures the development of vaccine-resistant variants. The longer the virus is alive and in our communities, the more likely this is:
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am ...the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
Several things:

First, we have both mentioned that the vaccines are less than 100% in preventing infection. Numbers vary with sources but depending on whether the endpoint is test positivity, clinical infection, serious infection or death the numbers vary fron the mid 90s to greater than 99%.
This is not relevant.
What is clear from the data is the because the body is prepared for an infection, when it does occur the vaccine prevents SERIOUS infection. SO hospital admission rates are way down.

It just isn't worth chasing that last fraction of a percentage point, remember when this started zero percentage of the population were immune.
No idea why you are saying that.

As it happens, places like the US, which has a high past infection rate and a high vaccination rate, especially among the most vulnerable, just isn't going to be the place where variants are going to have enough of a foothold to occur.
And yet the UK which is almost the same as the US is responsible for the Delta variant.
Variants are going to happen in places with low past infection rates and low vaccination rates, since that's where the nonimmune folks are.
Variants can happen in any host. SInce vaccinations do not stop infections, even vaccinated people can harbour a variant. Having been infected is no gurantee of avoiding a new infection, it just means that the infection will not be serious. And this is the case for people who have already been infected and those vaccinated.
Obviously the big danger areas for new variants is the non vaccinated world, which is more reason for a world vaccination programme, as new variants are eventually likely to completely invalidate the usefulness of present vaccines.
The lid is currently off the jar.
We're both correct, hospitalizations are way down. Why? Because of the immunity from past infections plus vaccinations. Yay.

What I meant by chasing the last percentage is: instead of twisting arms of the unwilling ignorant, why not give the vaccine doses to someone who is eagerly seeking it out? You alluded to such a plan with your world vaccination program idea. We agree.

Your red statement is misleading as written. More accurately, vaccines stop over 95% of infections and the breakthrough infections that do happen are less serious.

Glad to see that you agree that it is "Obviously" the nonimmune world where we should be focusing efforts, since that is where the real danger lies. That is essentially my whole point.
"As usual... it depends."
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

BobS wrote: June 30th, 2021, 11:15 pm
I guess you're not that interested in presenting the supposed evidence then?
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Sculptor1
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 1st, 2021, 1:48 am
Sculptor1 wrote: June 30th, 2021, 4:31 am
LuckyR wrote: June 30th, 2021, 3:33 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:16 pm



"The part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune" is my fault: I wasn't clear. I was referring to the virus moving from the unvaccinated magically back to the vaccinated people. As you said, quite rightly, "only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective". Our current vaccines are around 95% effective against the alpha variant, which means that 1 in 20 of the people who would otherwise have become infected actually become infected.

The existence of a pool of vulnerable people, even if they suffer no symptoms themselves, enables the virus to remain in our population. It also (maybe) nurtures the development of vaccine-resistant variants. The longer the virus is alive and in our communities, the more likely this is:

Several things:

First, we have both mentioned that the vaccines are less than 100% in preventing infection. Numbers vary with sources but depending on whether the endpoint is test positivity, clinical infection, serious infection or death the numbers vary fron the mid 90s to greater than 99%.
This is not relevant.
What is clear from the data is the because the body is prepared for an infection, when it does occur the vaccine prevents SERIOUS infection. SO hospital admission rates are way down.

It just isn't worth chasing that last fraction of a percentage point, remember when this started zero percentage of the population were immune.
No idea why you are saying that.

As it happens, places like the US, which has a high past infection rate and a high vaccination rate, especially among the most vulnerable, just isn't going to be the place where variants are going to have enough of a foothold to occur.
And yet the UK which is almost the same as the US is responsible for the Delta variant.
Variants are going to happen in places with low past infection rates and low vaccination rates, since that's where the nonimmune folks are.
Variants can happen in any host. SInce vaccinations do not stop infections, even vaccinated people can harbour a variant. Having been infected is no gurantee of avoiding a new infection, it just means that the infection will not be serious. And this is the case for people who have already been infected and those vaccinated.
Obviously the big danger areas for new variants is the non vaccinated world, which is more reason for a world vaccination programme, as new variants are eventually likely to completely invalidate the usefulness of present vaccines.
The lid is currently off the jar.
We're both correct, hospitalizations are way down. Why? Because of the immunity from past infections plus vaccinations. Yay.

What I meant by chasing the last percentage is: instead of twisting arms of the unwilling ignorant, why not give the vaccine doses to someone who is eagerly seeking it out? You alluded to such a plan with your world vaccination program idea. We agree.
How odd that this myth has gained so much capital to the degree that you did not think you had to qualify it.
Read my lips "No one, I mean, no one's arm is being twisted, and no one is twisting any one's arm.
The right wing media love to push this myth, but it ain't happening anywhere on earth.
It is shocking the numnber of vaccine shy people there are, even in the health service. So prevalent and insidious are the antivaxx lies and conspiriacy theories that people are geuninely scared of nothing.

Your red statement is misleading as written. More accurately, vaccines stop over 95% of infections and the breakthrough infections that do happen are less serious.
My "red" statement is literally true. A vaccinated person can be infected. What the vaccine does is stop that being serious, and taking hold. The vector is usually the respiratory system, the anitbodies are in the blood. So even vaccinated person can pass on a variant id they think they do not need to wear a mask.

Glad to see that you agree that it is "Obviously" the nonimmune world where we should be focusing efforts, since that is where the real danger lies. That is essentially my whole point.
Every person where ever they are in the world needs to get a jab if this think is to be beaten.
BobS
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by BobS »

Post number 5663, and still nothing of substance.

But I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from. You're waiting for COVID to kill enough people that the virus simply burns itself out, eliminating the need for more vaccinatations to be administered.

And then you'll be right.

Nice!
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

BobS wrote: July 1st, 2021, 11:40 am Post number 5663, and still nothing of substance.

But I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from. You're waiting for COVID to kill enough people that the virus simply burns itself out, eliminating the need for more vaccinatations to be administered.

And then you'll be right.

Nice!
Conjecture isn't evidence.
BobS
Posts: 75
Joined: February 12th, 2021, 2:14 pm

Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by BobS »

Terrapin Station wrote: July 1st, 2021, 12:13 pm Conjecture isn't evidence.
Evidence of a person's intent includes that person's statements and behavior.

Post number 5665, and still nothing of substance. The evidence mounts!
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

BobS wrote: July 1st, 2021, 1:00 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: July 1st, 2021, 12:13 pm Conjecture isn't evidence.
Evidence of a person's intent includes that person's statements and behavior.

Post number 5665, and still nothing of substance. The evidence mounts!
So "COVID [will] kill enough people that the virus simply burns itself out, eliminating the need for more vaccinatations to be administered" has something to do with intent on your view?
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