Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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psyreporter
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by psyreporter »

My argument is primarily that eugenics and the history of Big Pharma is a factor to consider. There is a strong push to 'reduce world population'. On a political forum that I visited many users were communicating messages like "there are to many people, they need to die" (in general/as if a shared perspective).
users on a political forum in 2021 wrote:It is common knowledge that there are too many people on this planet. And it is also generally known that it is taboo to do something about it...
...
Simply reducing humanity to 500 000 000 would be a very good step in the right direction.
...
there are so many too many
It may be applicable to consider that groups of people can be targeted. Perhaps you (as being scholars / higher educated people) are part of a social environment that is more likely to be excluded as target for 'disadvantage'.

My post earlier provides a substantiation why the above consideration may be plausible.

I just intended to share my perspective. I hope that it is respected and I hope that you are right, and that the vaccine will have been most beneficial!
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chewybrian
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by chewybrian »

Steve3007 wrote: June 25th, 2021, 5:58 am
chewybrian wrote:I can tell you that your experience of most people you know becoming vaccinated is not the case here in the US. I thought to post this thread after the discussion at work yesterday. We heard on the news that there was a very rare complication from the vaccine, in which young people might get a temporary inflammation of the heart. My response was "Great; one more excuse for the nut jobs not to get the vaccine!"

Well, it turned out the woman to whom I made that statement was one of the nut jobs. I went to someone else and relayed that experience, without naming the woman, and the second person turned out to be another nut job. When I say nut job, I mean that they had accepted some story about a danger of the vaccine, or thought they should wait a year or two before getting it to make sure there were not unknown side effects....
That's interesting. As you've acknowledged, though, your sample size in your straw poll is small. If I take a look at some published stats on the percentage of various countries' populations that have been vaccinated, it looks like vaccination rates in the UK rose quite rapidly near the start of this year, compared to the US, but that the gap has got narrower and now there's not a huge amount of difference between the two countries, in terms of the percentage of the population who have had one and two shots.

If I do my own straw poll of my own workplace (a small company of about 25 people) everybody I've talked to seems fully on board with the vaccine, and all have had whatever shots they've been offered when they were offered them. So that means all the middle aged types (like me) have had two shots and the 20 somethings have so far had one. But the difference may be at least partly between the cultures of different companies than the cultures of different countries. Most of the people I work with are engineers. Maybe, due to the nature of their work and the education they've had to do it, they tend to have a slightly better understanding of statistics than the average for the population.
You prompted me to check the stats for the US. I looked at the CDC, and they say that my straw poll was fairly accurate, as a bit more than half had at least one dose, and a bit less than half of people in the US are considered fully vaccinated. The numbers increase with age, as those over 65 are much more likely to be vaccinated.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Steve3007 wrote: June 25th, 2021, 7:05 am Very similar experience with me, minus the physical and the gym. (You're clearly more responsible about taking care of your health than I am!)
I'm usually very bad about going to doctors/getting check-ups, etc.--I try to avoid it if at all possible, as I have a bit of a phobia about it, but I was having an issue that bothered me enough that I had been to the doctor a number of times over a few months. As far as we can tell, it turned out to be me very slowly developing and then very slowly getting rid of at least one kidney stone.

But aside from that, I've always been fairly athletic and I've always exercised a lot--partially out of enjoyment. For example, I bike and hike a lot, as much just because I enjoy it as for any health benefits. And I've done martial arts off and on since I was a little kid. But I also go to the gym a lot, and I was in the military for awhile (the U.S. Marine Corps), which helped instill the discipline to work out regularly--but I also feel much better when I work out regularly, so that helps keep me motivated at my age.

I like a fair amount of junk food--and I'm especially a pizza fan, but I try to balance it with eating very healthy most of the time. 90-something percent of the food I eat I eat (and prepared the way I prepare it) is as much for its health benefits as for any other reason.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Gertie »

chewybrian wrote: June 25th, 2021, 4:58 am
LuckyR wrote: June 25th, 2021, 2:54 am
chewybrian wrote: June 24th, 2021, 7:31 pm Do you think people have a moral obligation to get the vaccine for covid? Don't the benefits to you outweigh the risks to you? More importantly, aren't you protecting others without any net cost to yourself, on balance? Why are so many people resistant to getting vaccinated? Are they getting bad information?

I would make a case along the lines of second hand smoking. If you want to smoke, that is your right. It's your money, your health, your life. But, we've decided as a society that you don't have the right to put others at risk by smoking indoors around people who don't wish to be exposed to the risks you've accepted. Unlike smoking, though, it's not practical to only be unvaccinated away from others. So, the only practical and fair solution is for everyone to get vaccinated.

Do you have valid reasons (beyond a weird medical exception) that any of us should not get the vaccine at this point? If we continue to allow something like 50% rates of vaccination, won't we just invite this problem to be with us indefinitely?
As long as you are paying your health insurance premium, I don't care (and society shouldn't either) if you don't get vaccinated. You're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself). Go for it, get sick, maybe really sick. At this point the caregivers are immune, you're not on Medicaid, it is really one of the truly contained self harms, without hurting society.

Don't care, after wasting energy talking to folks who don't want to listen.
You are right that people don't want to listen, but wrong not to care. These people are not only risking their own lives, but the lives of others. They are not only risking their resources and their well-being, but those of other members of society. There are a small percentage of people who can never get the vaccine who need the protection provided by those who can accept the vaccine getting vaccinated. There are costs to society when people don't get the vaccine and get sick and/or die, even if they paid their health care premiums. There are also emotional costs to their families and friends when someone is lost for no good reason. Do you have a responsibility to stay healthy for the benefit of your children, for example, if doing so is free and painless?

Perhaps more critically, there is good reason to think the virus will mutate and get more powerful the longer it is allowed the room to do so. Every unvaccinated person is another unnecessary risk for a new strand to fight in the future. The new viruses will tend to be stronger and more resistant to vaccines or treatments, and we could be stuck in that cycle indefinitely if we don't make the effort to get close to full vaccination.
Right, and that's what makes it a moral issue.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by CIN »

I'd like to make it compulsory for people who refuse to be vaccinated to wear distinctive symbols on their clothing that would make it clear to everyone that they are potential killers and should be avoided. A large skull painted on the front and back of their clothing would seem appropriate.

Yes, I am being entirely serious.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by mystery »

I get some of the complaint theories and all of that. It doesn't make sense to fight this one, many much easier ways exist if the goal is to inject something bad into people. This is simply the best attempt as what it claims to be, a vaccine for a sickness that might kill you and others. Requiring a person to have it is wrong, requiring them to have it to travel in government-controlled/owned areas is valid as is access to someone else's private property. You don't have a vaccine, then you may not leave your property unless you own the road. The crime would be attempted murder if traveling into public spaces without vaccine due to refusal. You know you may be holding the virus and you know it may kill someone.

If the person owns a large enough space to be self-sufficient then they may choose as long as they stay in that place or some other space that they also own or have an agreement with someone to cross.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: June 25th, 2021, 4:58 am
LuckyR wrote: June 25th, 2021, 2:54 am
chewybrian wrote: June 24th, 2021, 7:31 pm Do you think people have a moral obligation to get the vaccine for covid? Don't the benefits to you outweigh the risks to you? More importantly, aren't you protecting others without any net cost to yourself, on balance? Why are so many people resistant to getting vaccinated? Are they getting bad information?

I would make a case along the lines of second hand smoking. If you want to smoke, that is your right. It's your money, your health, your life. But, we've decided as a society that you don't have the right to put others at risk by smoking indoors around people who don't wish to be exposed to the risks you've accepted. Unlike smoking, though, it's not practical to only be unvaccinated away from others. So, the only practical and fair solution is for everyone to get vaccinated.

Do you have valid reasons (beyond a weird medical exception) that any of us should not get the vaccine at this point? If we continue to allow something like 50% rates of vaccination, won't we just invite this problem to be with us indefinitely?
As long as you are paying your health insurance premium, I don't care (and society shouldn't either) if you don't get vaccinated. You're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself). Go for it, get sick, maybe really sick. At this point the caregivers are immune, you're not on Medicaid, it is really one of the truly contained self harms, without hurting society.

Don't care, after wasting energy talking to folks who don't want to listen.
You are right that people don't want to listen, but wrong not to care. These people are not only risking their own lives, but the lives of others. They are not only risking their resources and their well-being, but those of other members of society. There are a small percentage of people who can never get the vaccine who need the protection provided by those who can accept the vaccine getting vaccinated. There are costs to society when people don't get the vaccine and get sick and/or die, even if they paid their health care premiums. There are also emotional costs to their families and friends when someone is lost for no good reason. Do you have a responsibility to stay healthy for the benefit of your children, for example, if doing so is free and painless?

Perhaps more critically, there is good reason to think the virus will mutate and get more powerful the longer it is allowed the room to do so. Every unvaccinated person is another unnecessary risk for a new strand to fight in the future. The new viruses will tend to be stronger and more resistant to vaccines or treatments, and we could be stuck in that cycle indefinitely if we don't make the effort to get close to full vaccination.
All true. But why isn't there a thread about moral obligation to get a flu shot? Because 60,000 deaths a year isn't worth shutting down the economy, whereas over 600,000 deaths was. Well Covid at this point isn't in the 600,000 death zone anymore moving forward, it's more like the flu, statistically.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Sculptor1 »

All people have a moral obligation to get vaccinations.
But is is clear that many people flout their obligations frequently.
We all benefit from vaccinations, even those that refuse to take them.
There is no viable case against being vaccinated unless you have a demonstrable tendancy to be allergic.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

CIN wrote: June 25th, 2021, 7:03 pm I'd like to make it compulsory for people who refuse to be vaccinated to wear distinctive symbols on their clothing that would make it clear to everyone that they are potential killers and should be avoided. A large skull painted on the front and back of their clothing would seem appropriate.

Yes, I am being entirely serious.
You could do something like the star these women are wearing on their left breast.

Image
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Sculptor1 »

CIN wrote: June 25th, 2021, 7:03 pm I'd like to make it compulsory for people who refuse to be vaccinated to wear distinctive symbols on their clothing that would make it clear to everyone that they are potential killers and should be avoided. A large skull painted on the front and back of their clothing would seem appropriate.

Yes, I am being entirely serious.
Maybe you could tattoo something on their foreheads?
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Whatever you might think about obligations to get vaccinations. You cannot infringe the rights of shops, resaurants and employers to refuse service or jobs to people who refuse to be vaccinated.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by chewybrian »

LuckyR wrote: June 26th, 2021, 2:49 am All true. But why isn't there a thread about moral obligation to get a flu shot? Because 60,000 deaths a year isn't worth shutting down the economy, whereas over 600,000 deaths was. Well Covid at this point isn't in the 600,000 death zone anymore moving forward, it's more like the flu, statistically.
There are a few problems with this analysis. Covid is much more deadly than the flu, so obviously is it a bigger threat. Covid also affects younger and healthier people with more deadly results than the flu, though it is still much more dangerous the older you are when you get it. Covid seems to have some serious lingering effects that don't exist with the flu, though I think the jury is still out on that. Covid has a longer period before symptoms appear, allowing you to spread it without being aware you have it, in addition to many asymptomatic cases who can also spread the infection.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/covid-sp ... 33b24195f4
Because of all this, pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic spread are much more common with COVID-19 than the flu.
Further, you are comparing older stats from the flu to present stats for covid. The protections we put in place for covid were ridiculously, if accidentally, effective against the flu. The flu was down 90%+ this year!


https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/flu-dea ... 39181.html

So, the fact that both rates of infection are down for both the flu and covid does not negate the fact that covid is still many times more deadly, easier to spread and has other complications. The comparison is either something like 600,000 to 60,000 or 60,000 to 2,000.

After saying all that, you could easily make a case that we have a moral obligation to do more to protect the vulnerable members of our population from the flu. We've done it by accident this year and probably saved tens of thousands of people. You just can't make that case by saying the threat from the flu is the same as the threat from covid, because it definitely is not.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: June 26th, 2021, 7:14 am
LuckyR wrote: June 26th, 2021, 2:49 am All true. But why isn't there a thread about moral obligation to get a flu shot? Because 60,000 deaths a year isn't worth shutting down the economy, whereas over 600,000 deaths was. Well Covid at this point isn't in the 600,000 death zone anymore moving forward, it's more like the flu, statistically.
There are a few problems with this analysis. Covid is much more deadly than the flu, so obviously is it a bigger threat. Covid also affects younger and healthier people with more deadly results than the flu, though it is still much more dangerous the older you are when you get it. Covid seems to have some serious lingering effects that don't exist with the flu, though I think the jury is still out on that. Covid has a longer period before symptoms appear, allowing you to spread it without being aware you have it, in addition to many asymptomatic cases who can also spread the infection.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/covid-sp ... 33b24195f4
Because of all this, pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic spread are much more common with COVID-19 than the flu.
Further, you are comparing older stats from the flu to present stats for covid. The protections we put in place for covid were ridiculously, if accidentally, effective against the flu. The flu was down 90%+ this year!


https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/flu-dea ... 39181.html

So, the fact that both rates of infection are down for both the flu and covid does not negate the fact that covid is still many times more deadly, easier to spread and has other complications. The comparison is either something like 600,000 to 60,000 or 60,000 to 2,000.

After saying all that, you could easily make a case that we have a moral obligation to do more to protect the vulnerable members of our population from the flu. We've done it by accident this year and probably saved tens of thousands of people. You just can't make that case by saying the threat from the flu is the same as the threat from covid, because it definitely is not.
Correction, Covid WAS much more deadly than the flu. Mostly because no one had ever had it before so no one had partial, let alone total immunity.

Currently, there have been over 36 million known infections. Most experts feel that known infections are about 25% of total infections. If true, there are over 150 million folks who got infected and are now immune, without a single vaccine being given. Most of the silent (undiagnosed) infections were likely in young people who didn't have many, or any symptoms and perhaps didn't take the precautions seriously since they were at low statistical risk of serious disease (plus they're kids!) Add to the mix 150 million folks fully vaccinated and another 20 million partially vaccinated. This is in a total population of 332 million. Of course there is some overlap, ie some people immune from recovering from infection, also got vaccinated. However, whereas the numbers of silent infections (the majority of infections) were among the young, the number of vaccinated are heavily weigjted towards the elderly and caregivers (the very people who took precautions seriously and so were probably never infected). Thus there is likely minimal to low moderate levels of overlap (folks who are naturally immune who got a vaccine).

Long story short, we are a lot closer to not having to care about large numbers of serious disease than is being talked about. Is Covid zero risk at this point? Of course not, but there are many, many health risks below pandemic level that we try to combat, but we don't use draconian measures on. Covid at this point is either in, or very close to being in such a category, statistically.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Tegularius wrote: June 24th, 2021, 10:42 pm ...not so much a moral obligation as a societal one, which, in your clearly written post, you pretty well confirmed.
I'm wholly in agreement. I wonder, though, whether "moral obligation" and "social (societal) obligation" aren't synonymous? They seem so to me.

Don't mind me; I'm just musing. Carry on.... 😉
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

arjand wrote: June 25th, 2021, 7:14 am My argument is primarily that eugenics and the history of Big Pharma is a factor to consider. There is a strong push to 'reduce world population'. On a political forum that I visited many users were communicating messages like "there are to many people, they need to die" (in general/as if a shared perspective).
users on a political forum in 2021 wrote:It is common knowledge that there are too many people on this planet. And it is also generally known that it is taboo to do something about it...
...
Simply reducing humanity to 500 000 000 would be a very good step in the right direction.
...
there are so many too many
I hope this very sensible suggestion relies on us breeding less? I can see no real need for mass executions. We've dilly-dallied for long enough that one generation is not too long to wait. But 500 million would be a huge relief for the planet, maybe even enough to allow some recovery without any further action on our behalf, which would be nice....

Meanwhile, vaccination will benefit everyone, so yes, there is a moral obligation.
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