Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Steve3007 wrote: June 28th, 2021, 7:14 am
Terrapin Station wrote:My family actually has a bit of a military tradition, on both my dad's and my mom's side, going at least all the way back to an ancestor who fought in the U.S. Revolutionary War.
Cool. My dad has traced my own family history back quite a long way (as people tend to do when they're getting near the end of their own life!). I think the furthest back was 17th Century, but as far as I remember the earliest known example of military combat was World War I. But you never know, maybe somebody fought in the U.S. Revolutionary War on the side of King George! :lol:
Could be!

My relative who fought in the Revolutionary War, who supposedly knew George Washington, was promised free land after the War for his service, which he received (in Pennsylvania--it's greatly aided that branch of the family in being farmers; my mom's dad was born on and grew up on a farm in Ohio), but he was so late completing/filing the paperwork for it that he almost lost out on it. That's funny because there are a lot of procrastinators/very late bloomers in the family, including me--I have a bad tendency to only get motivated to do things when I can barely complete them in time via essentially a bit of panic.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Steve3007 »

Terrapin Station wrote:...who supposedly knew George Washington...
Which I guess probably isn't as unlikely as it might sound, as presumably the population was much, much smaller back then.
...That's funny because there are a lot of procrastinators/very late bloomers in the family, including me--I have a bad tendency to only get motivated to do things when I can barely complete them in time via essentially a bit of panic.
It's funny how much we (in general) tend to look for characteristics in our ancestors that we recognize in ourselves. I guess it gives us a personal connection to the past. Probably one reason why tracing family histories is so popular.

I have that tendency too, which is why getting paid a salary is not good for my work ethic (it would be better if I starved unless I got the work done) and why right now I should be finishing writing a document that we've told the customer we'll deliver by Thursday, but I'm still not working on it.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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LuckyR wrote: June 28th, 2021, 1:43 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 27th, 2021, 9:50 am
LuckyR wrote: June 25th, 2021, 2:54 am ...I don't care (and society shouldn't either) if you don't get vaccinated. You're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself).
If only that was true. The unvaccinated spread the disease. A pool of unvaccinated people allows the virus to replicate and mutate more easily. Refusing vaccination is not a victimless crime.
Uummm... what is the difference between what we two posted?
You opined that "you're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself)", and that is untrue. A pool of unvaccinated people opposes the gains we make by having everyone vaccinated. It allows the virus to circulate, and to mutate. Vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the continuing presence of the virus, sustained by a pool of unvaccinated people, allows it to spread back into the vaccinated population more quickly and easily than if everyone was vaccinated. So the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Steve3007 wrote: June 28th, 2021, 7:44 am
Terrapin Station wrote:...who supposedly knew George Washington...
Which I guess probably isn't as unlikely as it might sound, as presumably the population was much, much smaller back then.
It's amusing when you're traveling around the northeastern U.S. just how often you see historical signs about Washington being someplace. I'm both an avid hiker and someone who enjoys visiting historic sites, and you constantly run into "Washington did such and such here" markers. He seemed to truly fit that "I've Been Everywhere" song.
...That's funny because there are a lot of procrastinators/very late bloomers in the family, including me--I have a bad tendency to only get motivated to do things when I can barely complete them in time via essentially a bit of panic.
It's funny how much we (in general) tend to look for characteristics in our ancestors that we recognize in ourselves. I guess it gives us a personal connection to the past. Probably one reason why tracing family histories is so popular.

I have that tendency too, which is why getting paid a salary is not good for my work ethic (it would be better if I starved unless I got the work done) and why right now I should be finishing writing a document that we've told the customer we'll deliver by Thursday, but I'm still not working on it.
It might also be a sign of genetic tendencies. There are some very strong personality resemblances, including interests, all sorts of little quirks, even mannerisms, not to mention the usual superficial resemblances of appearance, among family members, even ones you meet that you weren't very familiar with previously.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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Terrapin Station wrote: June 28th, 2021, 6:00 am
chewybrian wrote: June 27th, 2021, 6:49 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 27th, 2021, 1:29 pm
CIN wrote: June 27th, 2021, 12:57 pm That was a morally unacceptable reason for requiring that kind of display. This is not.
Which just amounts to you personally agreeing with one and not the other.
It's much worse to force people to wear the label for something that is out of their control and not liable to cause injury to anyone else. In the case of choosing not to be vaccinated, you are making a choice along the lines of choosing to drive drunk. You are allowing your preferences to put other peoples' lives at risk. How can you even pretend these two cases are somehow equal?
First, if vaccination works, and it seems to, whose lives are you putting at risk?
Here is a great answer for the first question:
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am You opined that "you're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself)", and that is untrue. A pool of unvaccinated people opposes the gains we make by having everyone vaccinated. It allows the virus to circulate, and to mutate. Vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the continuing presence of the virus, sustained by a pool of unvaccinated people, allows it to spread back into the vaccinated population more quickly and easily than if everyone was vaccinated. So the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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chewybrian wrote: June 28th, 2021, 10:56 am
Terrapin Station wrote: June 28th, 2021, 6:00 am
chewybrian wrote: June 27th, 2021, 6:49 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 27th, 2021, 1:29 pm
Which just amounts to you personally agreeing with one and not the other.
It's much worse to force people to wear the label for something that is out of their control and not liable to cause injury to anyone else. In the case of choosing not to be vaccinated, you are making a choice along the lines of choosing to drive drunk. You are allowing your preferences to put other peoples' lives at risk. How can you even pretend these two cases are somehow equal?
First, if vaccination works, and it seems to, whose lives are you putting at risk?
Here is a great answer for the first question:
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am You opined that "you're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself)", and that is untrue. A pool of unvaccinated people opposes the gains we make by having everyone vaccinated. It allows the virus to circulate, and to mutate. Vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the continuing presence of the virus, sustained by a pool of unvaccinated people, allows it to spread back into the vaccinated population more quickly and easily than if everyone was vaccinated. So the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
Let's see evidence of this in this situation first.

Not that I'd agree that people are morally obligated to make risk as low as possible for others, by the way. But let's see evidence of enough people not being vaccinated that it's going to pose a significant risk to people who are vaccinated.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by BobS »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 28th, 2021, 11:32 amNot that I'd agree that people are morally obligated to make risk as low as possible for others, by the way. But let's see evidence of enough people not being vaccinated that it's going to pose a significant risk to people who are vaccinated.
Googling quickly told me that less than 91% of the world's population has been fully vaccinated. In the U.S. it's less than 47%.

If you're really asking for evidence that not being vaccinated doesn't increase the risk that the virus will otherwise continue to circulate more extensively and longer than whatever may be the unknown amount of time that it will take immunity to lessen in those who were intelligent and responsible enough to be vaccinated, and that it doesn't increase the risk of new variants developing, variants that may pose additional risks to those who were intelligent and responsible enough to be vaccinated, I'd say that your request is a bit excessive.

To say the least.

How do you propose that such evidence be collected? You don't see any difficulty? Predicting how long the pandemic will last and what kinds of variants may arise, and with what consequences, is really that easy in what is a life-or-death situation? Not even considering the fact that COVID-19 has been with us for only a very short time, which it's seriously to be doubted is long enough for such data to have been collected, beyond what we already know and common sense tell us?

What we know is beyond dispute is that the virus is highly contagious, that those who have not been vaccinated pose a much higher threat of spreading the virus than those who have been vaccinated, that multiple deadly and even more contagious variants have already arisen, etc., etc., etc. What common sense tells us is that there is no way to know that a new variant will not threat the health of even those were were intelligent and responsible enough to be vaccinated.

I see absolutely no justification, certainly no moral justification, for insisting on the right to be a Typhoid Mary.

I take a basically attitudinal position on ethics and morality. To the extent that objective standards may come into play, I consider that a matter of attitude in the first instance (how else to choose which objective standard to apply in the first place?) So when you phrase your preamble in terms of "moral obligation," I have to admit that by my lights, you can take whatever position you like, based on whatever the evidence is or isn't. You certainly have the right to disregard or minimize what is already known. At the same time, my personal attitude is that, outside of extremely special circumstances, given what is already known and obvious, refusing to be vaccinated absolutely stinks as a moral position.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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BobS wrote: June 28th, 2021, 3:24 pm If you're really asking for evidence that not being vaccinated doesn't increase the risk that the virus will otherwise continue to circulate more extensively and longer than whatever may be the unknown amount of time that it will take immunity to lessen in those who were intelligent and responsible enough to be vaccinated, and that it doesn't increase the risk of new variants developing, variants that may pose additional risks to those who were intelligent and responsible enough to be vaccinated, I'd say that your request is a bit excessive.

To say the least.

How do you propose that such evidence be collected? . . .
Then don't make empirical claims about it. Empirical claims require empirical evidence.

I'm not saying, by the way, that there's no increased risk with people choosing to not be vaccinated. I'm saying that there's no good evidence that the additional risk would be significant, and I'm not in favor of moralizing or legislating in a manner oriented toward maximally minimizing risks at the expense of allowing people to make whatever choices they'd like to make.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by BobS »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 28th, 2021, 5:01 pm
BobS wrote: June 28th, 2021, 3:24 pm If you're really asking for evidence that not being vaccinated doesn't increase the risk that the virus will otherwise continue to circulate more extensively and longer than whatever may be the unknown amount of time that it will take immunity to lessen in those who were intelligent and responsible enough to be vaccinated, and that it doesn't increase the risk of new variants developing, variants that may pose additional risks to those who were intelligent and responsible enough to be vaccinated, I'd say that your request is a bit excessive.

To say the least.

How do you propose that such evidence be collected? . . .
Then don't make empirical claims about it. Empirical claims require empirical evidence.
What a dodgy response.

The part of my message that you didn't quote listed some of the widely known evidence. Why you thought it convenient to ignore that part is not explained.

The part of my message that you did quote was addressed to the possibility that what you required as evidence was stuff that was way over-the-top. Quoting only that part of my message, and glibly concluding that I shouldn't make empirical claims, hardly is to the point, especially since I started out merely responding to your earlier message, which said...
Terrapin Station wrote: June 28th, 2021, 11:32 am Let's see evidence of this in this situation first.
So you were the one who asked for evidence. I responded by asking what sort of evidence you required. And now you reply "don't make empirical claims about it."

Why engage in a discussion if you're simply going to dodge the issue in that manner?
Terrapin Station wrote: June 28th, 2021, 5:01 pm I'm not saying, by the way, that there's no increased risk with people choosing to not be vaccinated. I'm saying that there's no good evidence that the additional risk would be significant, ...
As mentioned, in quoting my earlier message, you left out part of what I said.
BobS wrote: June 28th, 2021, 3:24 pm Googling quickly told me that less than 91% of the world's population has been fully vaccinated [sic; a typo; 91% have not been fully vaccinated]. In the U.S. it's less than 47%.

. . .

What we know is beyond dispute is that the virus is highly contagious, that those who have not been vaccinated pose a much higher threat of spreading the virus than those who have been vaccinated, that multiple deadly and even more contagious variants have already arisen, etc., etc., etc. What common sense tells us is that there is no way to know that a new variant will not threat the health of even those were were intelligent and responsible enough to be vaccinated.
I'd say that's pretty significant evidence. Saying that there's "no good evidence" doesn't make it so. Ignoring what I said doesn't make it go away.

I asked what sort of evidence you do require in anticipation of your rejecting the widely-known stuff that I mentioned. Since you persist in your claim that there's "no good evidence," I have to ask:

Do we need to get a mutation that is so virulent that it starts killing at an even greater clip, and infects even the people who have been vaccinated, as well as the Typhoid Mary wannabes? How many such deaths would need to pile up before you'd be satisfied that there was more than "no good evidence"?
Terrapin Station wrote: June 28th, 2021, 11:32 am Not that I'd agree that people are morally obligated to make risk as low as possible for others, by the way.
The issue isn't one of making the risk "as low as possible," as though the risk were already quite low, and vaccinations merely served to make it slightly lower. From the beginning it's been made known that they are about 90% effective. On the one hand, that tells us that if everyone was vaccinated, the number of infections would be dramatically reduced. On the other had, simple arithmetic tells us that the vaccines are about 10% ineffective. Translated: even ignoring any variants that may develop, people who have been vaccinated are still at risk, mostly because of the knuckleheads who refuse to be vaccinated.

And again, the evidence is that deadly variants do continue to arise. Common sense tells us that if unvaccinated people are far more likely than vaccinated people to be infected, then unvaccinated people are the principle breeding ground for mutations. That's a risk to everyone.
Terrapin Station wrote: June 28th, 2021, 11:32 am I'm not in favor of moralizing or legislating in a manner oriented toward maximally minimizing risks at the expense of allowing people to make whatever choices they'd like to make. [Emphasis added.]
"Maximally minimizing risks" is essentially an arm-waving generality that doesn't apply. It's established that the vaccines are effective, that they significantly reduce the risk of infection and death, and that mutations continue to arise, which potentially affects us all. With that being the evidence, whether you intend it or not, what you've said so far essentially translates to this: seriously reducing the continuing death toll is not a worthy goal, not if it means infringing the freedom of all the Typhoid Mary wannabes to do what they want.

I beg to differ.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am
LuckyR wrote: June 28th, 2021, 1:43 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 27th, 2021, 9:50 am
LuckyR wrote: June 25th, 2021, 2:54 am ...I don't care (and society shouldn't either) if you don't get vaccinated. You're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself).
If only that was true. The unvaccinated spread the disease. A pool of unvaccinated people allows the virus to replicate and mutate more easily. Refusing vaccination is not a victimless crime.
Uummm... what is the difference between what we two posted?
You opined that "you're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself)", and that is untrue. A pool of unvaccinated people opposes the gains we make by having everyone vaccinated. It allows the virus to circulate, and to mutate. Vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the continuing presence of the virus, sustained by a pool of unvaccinated people, allows it to spread back into the vaccinated population more quickly and easily than if everyone was vaccinated. So the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
You are correct vaccines are 98% effective, not 100%. However only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective. But where you lose your train of logic, is the part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune. BTW there are about as many post infection immune as there are vaccinated immune, though how folks get their immunity doesn't really matter, immune systems don't look at CDC cards.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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BobS wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:30 pm What a dodgy response.
Oy vey.
The part of my message that you didn't quote listed some of the widely known evidence.
Then just get straight to the evidence. Or does that not fulfill some OCD word count requirement?
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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LuckyR wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:00 am You are correct vaccines are 98% effective, not 100%. However only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective. But where you lose your train of logic, is the part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune. BTW there are about as many post infection immune as there are vaccinated immune, though how folks get their immunity doesn't really matter, immune systems don't look at CDC cards.
It bloody well does matter. For folks to get their immunity through infection, some percentage of them must get very sick and some must die in the process, and society must suffer the economic and emotional toll of those illnesses and deaths. By contrast, virtually nobody dies from getting the vaccine. And the unvaccinated are the breeding ground for variants of covid like the new Delta variant, that tend to be more deadly, more easily transmitted, and may be resistant to current vaccines or methods of treatment. Keeping a large pool of unvaccinated people available for easy infection keeps the virus alive and able to change and get stronger.

We lost more people to covid already than we lost to WWII. Did it "not really matter" that we lost all those soldiers in the war? Say that using ration cards or making other small sacrifices on the home front held a serious prospect of ending the war? Would it have been too much imposition on our freedoms to ask those who had not yet had a bomb fall on their head to make those sacrifices? Can you imagine people back then protesting that they had a right to use resources that were needed for the soldiers at the front? Yet, we face a greater toll in lost lives today, and you want to argue that we shouldn't make a small sacrifice that has a good chance of removing the threat?
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by BobS »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 29th, 2021, 6:37 am Then just get straight to the evidence. Or does that not fulfill some OCD word count requirement?
I've already done that. Twice. You just prefer not to address it.

Odd how you always reply with words that on the surface request a further response, yet you never reply with anything responsive yourself.

Thus, our "discussion," such as it was, obviously is at an end. Your maximum word count requirement wins.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am You opined that "you're only hurting yourself (and other unvaccinated people like yourself)", and that is untrue. A pool of unvaccinated people opposes the gains we make by having everyone vaccinated. It allows the virus to circulate, and to mutate. Vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the continuing presence of the virus, sustained by a pool of unvaccinated people, allows it to spread back into the vaccinated population more quickly and easily than if everyone was vaccinated. So the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
LuckyR wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:00 am You are correct vaccines are 98% effective, not 100%. However only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective. But where you lose your train of logic, is the part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune. BTW there are about as many post infection immune as there are vaccinated immune, though how folks get their immunity doesn't really matter, immune systems don't look at CDC cards.
"The part about virus moving from the nonimmune magically back to the immune" is my fault: I wasn't clear. I was referring to the virus moving from the unvaccinated magically back to the vaccinated people. As you said, quite rightly, "only a simpleton would expect anything biological to be 100% effective". Our current vaccines are around 95% effective against the alpha variant, which means that 1 in 20 of the people who would otherwise have become infected actually become infected.

The existence of a pool of vulnerable people, even if they suffer no symptoms themselves, enables the virus to remain in our population. It also (maybe) nurtures the development of vaccine-resistant variants. The longer the virus is alive and in our communities, the more likely this is:
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:18 am ...the unvaccinated harm all of us, not just their fellow anti-vaxxers.
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Re: Do you have a moral obligation to get vaccinated?

Post by Terrapin Station »

BobS wrote: June 29th, 2021, 2:00 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 29th, 2021, 6:37 am Then just get straight to the evidence. Or does that not fulfill some OCD word count requirement?
I've already done that. Twice.
You got straight to the evidence twice? I see.
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