To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

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Empiricist-Bruno
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To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

The COVID-19 pandemic has transformed the way that I see a lot of the people that I thought I knew but really did not.

As a vegan for over 12 years, it became important to me to know how the COVID-19 vaccine had been made, and when I heard that monkeys had died in the process, the fact that this product could not be used by me, a vegan, became instantly clear.

But then lots of people that I thought were vegans and environmentalists reported getting their vaccines. Vegan organizations came out in support of vegans who took the vaccine.

I am also a frequent candidate in elections for animal parties. And the people within this party were not eager to say, "Well, it is at a time like this that we see who truly cares about animals, who the real vegans are." meaning those who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine.

A client of mine asked me if I had been vaccinated after telling me he got both his shots. I told him I couldn't because I was a vegan. He told me he would tell this to his daughter who is also a vegan and who got her covid vaccine shots, and then he revised himself saying, "Maybe not, she might not like to hear about that".

And then a mostly vegan friend of mine told me, "...the vaccine is here, it is a done deal" as if we couldn't fight the animal abuse that came with it anymore.

And then the obvious (obvious to me at least) struck me. There are lots of fake vegans around, even fake vegan organizations, and animal protection parties are not all that different from other democratic parties who don't really believe in anything but to use issues to try and become more popular themselves hoping for an eventual egoistical trip as head of government.

I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself. Yet, I understand that when I take the bus, I use a non-vegan product. However, that product is for the public non-vegan community of which I remain a part mostly involuntarily. I can't select the type of community (vegan/non vegan) that I want to be a part of.

But the COVID-19 shot is different; it will definitely be your own as it enters your body and will be no one else's. A vegan can take the non-vegan bus and claim to remain a vegan while using it because he/she doesn't have a choice but to live in a community that isn't vegan. The city bus is shared and unlike with the COVID-19 vaccine, no parts of it becomes part of you as you use it.

It is clear to me that a vegan will not use an animal tested product for his/her own benefit, especially so when others are looking at what we are doing with interest (if we don't take the vaccine, we may kill them inadvertently and so we have people's attention for a change). So, not taking the vaccine must be pretty fundamental to any real vegan and an easy decision. Since vegans represent maybe 2% of the population we can easily be protected from the virus through herd immunity.

Given that most deadly viruses come from non vegan activities, it is only fair that of all those who shouldn't need to protect themselves from a disease should be those who didn't invite the disease in the first place.

As I look around, I am learning of the systematic dishonesty of quite a few so-called vegans, and I remain astounded by that. What do you think? Perhaps the diluted values of so-called vegans is responsible for the lack of progress for animal rights? How come we don't hear in the news people encouraging every non- vegan to get their vaccines because the vegans won't and so they can't count on heard immunity for their protection?
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm The COVID-19 pandemic has transformed the way that I see a lot of the people that I thought I knew but really did not.

As a vegan for over 12 years, it became important to me to know how the COVID-19 vaccine had been made, and when I heard that monkeys had died in the process, the fact that this product could not be used by me, a vegan, became instantly clear.

But then lots of people that I thought were vegans and environmentalists reported getting their vaccines. Vegan organizations came out in support of vegans who took the vaccine.

I am also a frequent candidate in elections for animal parties. And the people within this party were not eager to say, "Well, it is at a time like this that we see who truly cares about animals, who the real vegans are." meaning those who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine.

A client of mine asked me if I had been vaccinated after telling me he got both his shots. I told him I couldn't because I was a vegan. He told me he would tell this to his daughter who is also a vegan and who got her covid vaccine shots, and then he revised himself saying, "Maybe not, she might not like to hear about that".

And then a mostly vegan friend of mine told me, "...the vaccine is here, it is a done deal" as if we couldn't fight the animal abuse that came with it anymore.

And then the obvious (obvious to me at least) struck me. There are lots of fake vegans around, even fake vegan organizations, and animal protection parties are not all that different from other democratic parties who don't really believe in anything but to use issues to try and become more popular themselves hoping for an eventual egoistical trip as head of government.

I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself. Yet, I understand that when I take the bus, I use a non-vegan product. However, that product is for the public non-vegan community of which I remain a part mostly involuntarily. I can't select the type of community (vegan/non vegan) that I want to be a part of.

But the COVID-19 shot is different; it will definitely be your own as it enters your body and will be no one else's. A vegan can take the non-vegan bus and claim to remain a vegan while using it because he/she doesn't have a choice but to live in a community that isn't vegan. The city bus is shared and unlike with the COVID-19 vaccine, no parts of it becomes part of you as you use it.

It is clear to me that a vegan will not use an animal tested product for his/her own benefit, especially so when others are looking at what we are doing with interest (if we don't take the vaccine, we may kill them inadvertently and so we have people's attention for a change). So, not taking the vaccine must be pretty fundamental to any real vegan and an easy decision. Since vegans represent maybe 2% of the population we can easily be protected from the virus through herd immunity.

Given that most deadly viruses come from non vegan activities, it is only fair that of all those who shouldn't need to protect themselves from a disease should be those who didn't invite the disease in the first place.

As I look around, I am learning of the systematic dishonesty of quite a few so-called vegans, and I remain astounded by that. What do you think? Perhaps the diluted values of so-called vegans is responsible for the lack of progress for animal rights? How come we don't hear in the news people encouraging every non- vegan to get their vaccines because the vegans won't and so they can't count on heard immunity for their protection?
Well, unfortunately for you, you don't get to define the term "vegan" for anyone other than yourself. Go ahead and skip the vaccine with my blessing, but your attempt to shoehorn the actions of others into self described pigeonholes is somewhere between ridiculous and insulting.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by AverageBozo »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm But the COVID-19 shot is different; it will definitely be your own as it enters your body and will be no one else's. A vegan can take the non-vegan bus and claim to remain a vegan while using it because he/she doesn't have a choice but to live in a community that isn't vegan. The city bus is shared and unlike with the COVID-19 vaccine, no parts of it becomes part of you as you use it.
What about a pair of shoes? Can a vegan own a pair of leather shoes?

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm It is clear to me that a vegan will not use an animal tested product for his/her own benefit, especially so when others are looking at what we are doing with interest (if we don't take the vaccine, we may kill them inadvertently and so we have people's attention for a change). So, not taking the vaccine must be pretty fundamental to any real vegan and an easy decision. Since vegans represent maybe 2% of the population we can easily be protected from the virus through herd immunity.
What is the vegan position re human animals? Shouldn’t there be a priority concerning which species will be harmed for the sake of another? Is there no ranking of species? Should consideration be given to the number of individuals who will be harmed in one species or another (eg, number of animals killed by research v number of humans killed by Covid)?

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm Given that most deadly viruses come from non vegan activities, it is only fair that of all those who shouldn't need to protect themselves from a disease should be those who didn't invite the disease in the first place.
In what way did non-vegans invite Covid?

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm What do you think? Perhaps the diluted values of so-called vegans is responsible for the lack of progress for animal rights? How come we don't hear in the news people encouraging every non- vegan to get their vaccines because the vegans won't and so they can't count on heard immunity for their protection?
If vegans comprise about 2% (your estimate) of population, why would you expect to hear anything about them in the news or expect non-vegans to take the protection of vegans into account re herd immunity?
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm The COVID-19 pandemic has transformed the way that I see a lot of the people that I thought I knew but really did not.

As a vegan for over 12 years, it became important to me to know how the COVID-19 vaccine had been made, and when I heard that monkeys had died in the process, the fact that this product could not be used by me, a vegan, became instantly clear.

But then lots of people that I thought were vegans and environmentalists reported getting their vaccines. Vegan organizations came out in support of vegans who took the vaccine.

I am also a frequent candidate in elections for animal parties. And the people within this party were not eager to say, "Well, it is at a time like this that we see who truly cares about animals, who the real vegans are." meaning those who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine.

A client of mine asked me if I had been vaccinated after telling me he got both his shots. I told him I couldn't because I was a vegan. He told me he would tell this to his daughter who is also a vegan and who got her covid vaccine shots, and then he revised himself saying, "Maybe not, she might not like to hear about that".

And then a mostly vegan friend of mine told me, "...the vaccine is here, it is a done deal" as if we couldn't fight the animal abuse that came with it anymore.

And then the obvious (obvious to me at least) struck me. There are lots of fake vegans around, even fake vegan organizations, and animal protection parties are not all that different from other democratic parties who don't really believe in anything but to use issues to try and become more popular themselves hoping for an eventual egoistical trip as head of government.

I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself. Yet, I understand that when I take the bus, I use a non-vegan product. However, that product is for the public non-vegan community of which I remain a part mostly involuntarily. I can't select the type of community (vegan/non vegan) that I want to be a part of.

But the COVID-19 shot is different; it will definitely be your own as it enters your body and will be no one else's. A vegan can take the non-vegan bus and claim to remain a vegan while using it because he/she doesn't have a choice but to live in a community that isn't vegan. The city bus is shared and unlike with the COVID-19 vaccine, no parts of it becomes part of you as you use it.

It is clear to me that a vegan will not use an animal tested product for his/her own benefit, especially so when others are looking at what we are doing with interest (if we don't take the vaccine, we may kill them inadvertently and so we have people's attention for a change). So, not taking the vaccine must be pretty fundamental to any real vegan and an easy decision. Since vegans represent maybe 2% of the population we can easily be protected from the virus through herd immunity.

Given that most deadly viruses come from non vegan activities, it is only fair that of all those who shouldn't need to protect themselves from a disease should be those who didn't invite the disease in the first place.

As I look around, I am learning of the systematic dishonesty of quite a few so-called vegans, and I remain astounded by that. What do you think? Perhaps the diluted values of so-called vegans is responsible for the lack of progress for animal rights? How come we don't hear in the news people encouraging every non- vegan to get their vaccines because the vegans won't and so they can't count on heard immunity for their protection?
Even Vegans are only human. ANd most I have known are pretty unclear about the exact reasons they have chosen this rather oddly unnnatural path of life.
I applaud their decision to take the jabs
Maybe Vegans will be less annoying in future because they can no longer sit on their high moral horse?
Those not able to bend may well succumb to the Darwin awards. Thr trouble with that and all antivaxxers is that they exist to benefit from the successes of vaccinations without ever taking any personal risk whilst at the same time remian a threat to humanity in that they might ensure the survival of the COVID virus.
Vaccines work best when humans act as one. Maybe you ought to consider that your position is less morallly valuable than theirs is?
Last edited by Sculptor1 on July 4th, 2021, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

AverageBozo wrote: July 4th, 2021, 2:07 pm
What about a pair of shoes? Can a vegan own a pair of leather shoes?
I wouldn't want to be caught wearing leather shoes while claiming to be vegan, unless it's fake leather shoes.
AverageBozo wrote: July 4th, 2021, 2:07 pm
What is the vegan position re human animals? Shouldn’t there be a priority concerning which species will be harmed for the sake of another? Is there no ranking of species? Should consideration be given to the number of individuals who will be harmed in one species or another (eg, number of animals killed by research v number of humans killed by Covid)?
If you can't test the vaccine on animals, it doesn't mean you can't test it on human volunteers and given the need for this vaccine, I am sure that some courageous people would volunteer and so you would still end up with a vaccine ethically produced and effective very quickly.
Who would you put in charge of ranking species? A dog, a bear or an elephant?
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm Given that most deadly viruses come from non vegan activities, it is only fair that of all those who shouldn't need to protect themselves from a disease should be those who didn't invite the disease in the first place.
AverageBozo wrote: July 4th, 2021, 2:07 pm In what way did non-vegans invite Covid?
Non-vegan invite pandemics in a numner of ways. 1) by sponsoring breeding grounds for pandemics. 2) by ignoring social justice issues that supports governments in areas such as war preparations, including those labs from which biological warfare is prepared.
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm What do you think? Perhaps the diluted values of so-called vegans is responsible for the lack of progress for animal rights? How come we don't hear in the news people encouraging every non- vegan to get their vaccines because the vegans won't and so they can't count on heard immunity for their protection?
AverageBozo wrote: July 4th, 2021, 2:07 pm If vegans comprise about 2% (your estimate) of population, why would you expect to hear anything about them in the news or expect non-vegans to take the protection of vegans into account re herd immunity?
With the delta variant that is more transmissible, herd immunity may require 90 % of the population to be vaccinated to stop the virus. Now, if 2% are vegans and will not get the shots, you are left with only 8% of the non vegan who can also decide not to be vaccinated for the virus to stop spreading. But the non vegans are notoriously undisciplined and will believe massively in conspiracy theories regarding the virus and thus decide not to have their shots. So if 9% of the non vegan population don't get vaccinated plus the 2% unvaccinated vegan, you get 11% of people unvaccinated and so the virus can continue to spread, so yes, I would expect some concerns from virus fearful non vegans about the unvaccinated vegans.
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by AverageBozo »

What you’ve said about shoes makes sense.
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Thank you.
However, I personally don't make a big deal of what a vegan wears. I make a bigger deal of why he /she is wearing it. If someone who wears leather shoes claims to be vegan, it could be because they were found or obtained without him/her paying for them and since this helps reduce the amount of money going into the non-vegan economy, [by saving money that would otherwise go for vegan shoes made by non-vegans] it makes sense veganwise in my opinion, so I certainly don't recognize a vegan by the type of shoes that I see him/her wearing one day. The strict adherence to a plant based diet is a much better marker of a vegan than anything else but if it's not for the animals then a person should still not make the claim to be a vegan but simply to be a follower of a strict plant based diet, as a matter of personal preference.
The guilt free ingestion of animal tested products is reserved for non-vegans and the courage to risk your life to make a powerful stance for animals is reserved for vegans.
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 4th, 2021, 2:24 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm The COVID-19 pandemic has transformed the way that I see a lot of the people that I thought I knew but really did not.

As a vegan for over 12 years, it became important to me to know how the COVID-19 vaccine had been made, and when I heard that monkeys had died in the process, the fact that this product could not be used by me, a vegan, became instantly clear.

But then lots of people that I thought were vegans and environmentalists reported getting their vaccines. Vegan organizations came out in support of vegans who took the vaccine.

I am also a frequent candidate in elections for animal parties. And the people within this party were not eager to say, "Well, it is at a time like this that we see who truly cares about animals, who the real vegans are." meaning those who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine.

A client of mine asked me if I had been vaccinated after telling me he got both his shots. I told him I couldn't because I was a vegan. He told me he would tell this to his daughter who is also a vegan and who got her covid vaccine shots, and then he revised himself saying, "Maybe not, she might not like to hear about that".

And then a mostly vegan friend of mine told me, "...the vaccine is here, it is a done deal" as if we couldn't fight the animal abuse that came with it anymore.

And then the obvious (obvious to me at least) struck me. There are lots of fake vegans around, even fake vegan organizations, and animal protection parties are not all that different from other democratic parties who don't really believe in anything but to use issues to try and become more popular themselves hoping for an eventual egoistical trip as head of government.

I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself. Yet, I understand that when I take the bus, I use a non-vegan product. However, that product is for the public non-vegan community of which I remain a part mostly involuntarily. I can't select the type of community (vegan/non vegan) that I want to be a part of.

But the COVID-19 shot is different; it will definitely be your own as it enters your body and will be no one else's. A vegan can take the non-vegan bus and claim to remain a vegan while using it because he/she doesn't have a choice but to live in a community that isn't vegan. The city bus is shared and unlike with the COVID-19 vaccine, no parts of it becomes part of you as you use it.

It is clear to me that a vegan will not use an animal tested product for his/her own benefit, especially so when others are looking at what we are doing with interest (if we don't take the vaccine, we may kill them inadvertently and so we have people's attention for a change). So, not taking the vaccine must be pretty fundamental to any real vegan and an easy decision. Since vegans represent maybe 2% of the population we can easily be protected from the virus through herd immunity.

Given that most deadly viruses come from non vegan activities, it is only fair that of all those who shouldn't need to protect themselves from a disease should be those who didn't invite the disease in the first place.

As I look around, I am learning of the systematic dishonesty of quite a few so-called vegans, and I remain astounded by that. What do you think? Perhaps the diluted values of so-called vegans is responsible for the lack of progress for animal rights? How come we don't hear in the news people encouraging every non- vegan to get their vaccines because the vegans won't and so they can't count on heard immunity for their protection?
Even Vegans are only human. ANd most I have known are pretty unclear about the exact reasons they have chosen this rather oddly unnnatural path of life.
I applaud their decision to take the jabs
Maybe Vegans will be less annoying in future because they can no longer sit on their high moral horse?
Those not able to bend may well succumb to the Darwin awards. Thr trouble with that and all antivaxxers is that they exist to benefit from the successes of vaccinations without ever taking any personal risk whilst at the same time remian a threat to humanity in that they might ensure the survival of the COVID virus.
Vaccines work best when humans act as one. Maybe you ought to consider that your position is less morallly valuable than theirs is?
Most vegans I know, and I know some despite the fact that I am realizing most of the self-claimed vegans I thought I knew are fake, do know why they have chosen this natural path of life. Given that you observe otherwise, it may be just a matter of personal perspective.

The COVID 19 disease isn't a threat to humanity. Nuclear bombs certainly are but not COVID 19.

Humans have never acted as one as far as I know. Saving animals may be a greater cause to rally humanity around than to save one's self. So no, I don't think my position is less morally valuable than theirs. In my opinion, giving priority to the policy of saving one's self is a liberal and conservative objective. It doesn't work for me. Also, humanity should include animals but it can't include them if you do testing on them against their will.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Steve3007 »

Like wartime conscientious objectors, I have no objection to vegans refraining from taking the vaccine on the grounds of the ethics of animal testing. I wouldn't hand them a white feather.
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 6th, 2021, 7:05 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 4th, 2021, 2:24 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm The COVID-19 pandemic has transformed the way that I see a lot of the people that I thought I knew but really did not.

As a vegan for over 12 years, it became important to me to know how the COVID-19 vaccine had been made, and when I heard that monkeys had died in the process, the fact that this product could not be used by me, a vegan, became instantly clear.

But then lots of people that I thought were vegans and environmentalists reported getting their vaccines. Vegan organizations came out in support of vegans who took the vaccine.

I am also a frequent candidate in elections for animal parties. And the people within this party were not eager to say, "Well, it is at a time like this that we see who truly cares about animals, who the real vegans are." meaning those who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine.

A client of mine asked me if I had been vaccinated after telling me he got both his shots. I told him I couldn't because I was a vegan. He told me he would tell this to his daughter who is also a vegan and who got her covid vaccine shots, and then he revised himself saying, "Maybe not, she might not like to hear about that".

And then a mostly vegan friend of mine told me, "...the vaccine is here, it is a done deal" as if we couldn't fight the animal abuse that came with it anymore.

And then the obvious (obvious to me at least) struck me. There are lots of fake vegans around, even fake vegan organizations, and animal protection parties are not all that different from other democratic parties who don't really believe in anything but to use issues to try and become more popular themselves hoping for an eventual egoistical trip as head of government.

I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself. Yet, I understand that when I take the bus, I use a non-vegan product. However, that product is for the public non-vegan community of which I remain a part mostly involuntarily. I can't select the type of community (vegan/non vegan) that I want to be a part of.

But the COVID-19 shot is different; it will definitely be your own as it enters your body and will be no one else's. A vegan can take the non-vegan bus and claim to remain a vegan while using it because he/she doesn't have a choice but to live in a community that isn't vegan. The city bus is shared and unlike with the COVID-19 vaccine, no parts of it becomes part of you as you use it.

It is clear to me that a vegan will not use an animal tested product for his/her own benefit, especially so when others are looking at what we are doing with interest (if we don't take the vaccine, we may kill them inadvertently and so we have people's attention for a change). So, not taking the vaccine must be pretty fundamental to any real vegan and an easy decision. Since vegans represent maybe 2% of the population we can easily be protected from the virus through herd immunity.

Given that most deadly viruses come from non vegan activities, it is only fair that of all those who shouldn't need to protect themselves from a disease should be those who didn't invite the disease in the first place.

As I look around, I am learning of the systematic dishonesty of quite a few so-called vegans, and I remain astounded by that. What do you think? Perhaps the diluted values of so-called vegans is responsible for the lack of progress for animal rights? How come we don't hear in the news people encouraging every non- vegan to get their vaccines because the vegans won't and so they can't count on heard immunity for their protection?
Even Vegans are only human. ANd most I have known are pretty unclear about the exact reasons they have chosen this rather oddly unnnatural path of life.
I applaud their decision to take the jabs
Maybe Vegans will be less annoying in future because they can no longer sit on their high moral horse?
Those not able to bend may well succumb to the Darwin awards. Thr trouble with that and all antivaxxers is that they exist to benefit from the successes of vaccinations without ever taking any personal risk whilst at the same time remian a threat to humanity in that they might ensure the survival of the COVID virus.
Vaccines work best when humans act as one. Maybe you ought to consider that your position is less morallly valuable than theirs is?
Most vegans I know, and I know some despite the fact that I am realizing most of the self-claimed vegans I thought I knew are fake, do know why they have chosen this natural path of life.
It's pointless if you are going to state obvious fallacies. Veganism is wholly unnatural.
We are not gorillas. In fact we are decended from a completely different branch of primate - a meat eating one. Humans omnivorousness enabled us to colonise the world. Before agriculture we were wholly dependant on eating what we could find, which has included meat in ALL preagricultural societies the world over. And before there was arable farming, humans first developed pastoralism. This was an evolution from following herds to kill to a system whereby they domesticated animals to use them for harvesting milk and blood.
Veganism is a peculiar legacy of the Disney effect, whereby animals used for food, and secondary products are confused because anthropomorphised. Veganism is a 20thC phenomenon, and requires an unnatural diet which relies on supplements not readily available without high tech solutions.
Given that you observe otherwise, it may be just a matter of personal perspective.
No. It's a matter of fact that Veganism is not natural.

The COVID 19 disease isn't a threat to humanity. Nuclear bombs certainly are but not COVID 19.
Covid is a threat to you and your kin and mine alike. I doubt it will significantly threaten the very existence, but is very likely to be continuning problem without an international concerted effort. There are variants around the corner and the next one may well completely invalidate all vaccines. Unless we act, unvaccinated persons pose a continual threat in the production of new variants. Unless covid is eradicated soon a whole new cycle of vaccine development may well have to happen.

Humans have never acted as one as far as I know. Saving animals may be a greater cause to rally humanity around than to save one's self.
There is nothing about Veganism which has anything to do with saving animals. THe best way to save animals and keep them on the land is to eat them. I do not see any campaign from Vegans to set aside millions of acres necessary to preserve sheep, goats, cattle, pigs, chickenssand so on. If the whole world were Vegan then all these species would die out and all the beautiful pastre land would go under the plough to feed the hoards of breedig vegans.
So no, I don't think my position is less morally valuable than theirs. In my opinion, giving priority to the policy of saving one's self is a liberal and conservative objective. It doesn't work for me. Also, humanity should include animals but it can't include them if you do testing on them against their will.
I don't advocate eating chimpanzees. DO you have a source for your claim that vaccines have been tested on primiates?
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 6th, 2021, 8:13 am

There is nothing about Veganism which has anything to do with saving animals. THe best way to save animals and keep them on the land is to eat them.
I am always amazed at encountering people who can have their cake and eat it too. True veganism is about saving animals but fake veganism, by pseudo vegans who rush to use animal tested products, isn't about saving animals. Please do not confuse the two.

Sculptor1 wrote: July 6th, 2021, 8:13 am

I do not see any campaign from Vegans to set aside millions of acres necessary to preserve sheep, goats, cattle, pigs, chickenssand so on. If the whole world were Vegan then all these species would die out and all the beautiful pastre land would go under the plough to feed the hoards of breedig vegans.
Hum, what do you make of people who say that eating vegetables requires less land to be ploughed because there is no need to grow food to feed the tortured animals you eat? By not eating animals, lots more land is freed up for natural animals to live their own lives so don't underestimate the vegans' delicate ecological impact.
Sculptor1 wrote: July 6th, 2021, 8:13 am
I don't advocate eating chimpanzees. DO you have a source for your claim that vaccines have been tested on primiates?
The covid vaccine was tested on monkeys. There was a news article about the problem of procuring them that I remember reading.

So you think I am a victim of Disney and I think you are a victim of capitalism. That's my conclusion.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Saving animals and not eating animals are not synonymous. Only a small minority of folks view the descriptor "vegan" as anything more than a dietary choice.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 6th, 2021, 7:37 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 6th, 2021, 8:13 am

There is nothing about Veganism which has anything to do with saving animals. THe best way to save animals and keep them on the land is to eat them.
I am always amazed at encountering people who can have their cake and eat it too. True veganism is about saving animals but fake veganism, by pseudo vegans who rush to use animal tested products, isn't about saving animals. Please do not confuse the two.
I'm not confused.
A world full of vegans is a world with no domestic animals.
Sculptor1 wrote: July 6th, 2021, 8:13 am

I do not see any campaign from Vegans to set aside millions of acres necessary to preserve sheep, goats, cattle, pigs, chickenssand so on. If the whole world were Vegan then all these species would die out and all the beautiful pastre land would go under the plough to feed the hoards of breedig vegans.
Hum, what do you make of people who say that eating vegetables requires less land to be ploughed because there is no need to grow food to feed the tortured animals you eat? By not eating animals, lots more land is freed up for natural animals to live their own lives so don't underestimate the vegans' delicate ecological impact.
What do you say to people who keep making more and more humans. I am going to continue to eat meat. Stop hafing more children!
The world would be a better place for having animals making manure to fertilise the land in the natural way.
Eating meant means that the land is more diverse. I don't agree that crops are grown to feed animals anymore than I agree that vegans are natural.
Not eating animals frees up land for mire houses, more cereal production. Not eatuing animals will NEVER lead to more animals on the land.
Sculptor1 wrote: July 6th, 2021, 8:13 am
I don't advocate eating chimpanzees. DO you have a source for your claim that vaccines have been tested on primiates?
The covid vaccine was tested on monkeys. There was a news article about the problem of procuring them that I remember reading.

So you think I am a victim of Disney and I think you are a victim of capitalism. That's my conclusion.
Please cite your article that COVID vaccine was tested on primates
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

LuckyR wrote: July 7th, 2021, 2:01 am Saving animals and not eating animals are not synonymous.
Yes and 3+4 isn't synonymous with 5+2 but if you know maths, you understand that there is an equivalence there.
LuckyR wrote: July 7th, 2021, 2:01 am Only a small minority of folks view the descriptor "vegan" as anything more than a dietary choice.
Yes, ignorance is a problem, and I feel that some people go out of their way to propagate it. Capitalists, liberal elitists, fake vegans have all an interest in the proliferation of lies and the mental and moral decripitude that comes with it. You can't tell the truth in a capitalistic society without seeing people and even organizations rushing out to try and bury it. I consider this post as evidence of that.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 7th, 2021, 9:12 am
LuckyR wrote: July 7th, 2021, 2:01 am Saving animals and not eating animals are not synonymous.
Yes and 3+4 isn't synonymous with 5+2 but if you know maths, you understand that there is an equivalence there.
Its more like the square root of -1
There is no equivance. Vegan has no impact on animal suffering negative or positive.
Meat eating directly reduces animal suffering.
It also has a very green consequence because wool, leather and other secondary products are much better for the environment than the high tech alternatives that Vegans have to seek.

LuckyR wrote: July 7th, 2021, 2:01 am Only a small minority of folks view the descriptor "vegan" as anything more than a dietary choice.
Yes, ignorance is a problem, and I feel that some people go out of their way to propagate it. Capitalists, liberal elitists, fake vegans have all an interest in the proliferation of lies and the mental and moral decripitude that comes with it. You can't tell the truth in a capitalistic society without seeing people and even organizations rushing out to try and bury it. I consider this post as evidence of that.
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