To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

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Gertie
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Gertie »

Sculptor
Meat eating directly reduces animal suffering.
Killing a human animal directly reduces human suffering. It also deprives them of every other experience they might have had, which is why it's wrong.
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LuckyR
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 7th, 2021, 9:12 am
LuckyR wrote: July 7th, 2021, 2:01 am Saving animals and not eating animals are not synonymous.
Yes and 3+4 isn't synonymous with 5+2 but if you know maths, you understand that there is an equivalence there.
LuckyR wrote: July 7th, 2021, 2:01 am Only a small minority of folks view the descriptor "vegan" as anything more than a dietary choice.
Yes, ignorance is a problem, and I feel that some people go out of their way to propagate it. Capitalists, liberal elitists, fake vegans have all an interest in the proliferation of lies and the mental and moral decripitude that comes with it. You can't tell the truth in a capitalistic society without seeing people and even organizations rushing out to try and bury it. I consider this post as evidence of that.
Very true, we are in agreement that choosing what to eat is a subset of the human activity that impacts animals.

Personally, I have no problem if you or anyone chooses to forgo dairy and meat foodstuffs. Though it is an oversimplification to suppose that any one person impacts overall animal welfare in only one way and thus their decisions in this one arena justifies labeling them. We all make numerous, simultaneous decisions that positively and negatively impact animals every day. Just do the best you can and don't beat yourself (or others) up about it.

Speaking specifically about domesticated farm animals (as opposed to wild animals), since they exist specifically to be culled for their resources, it is completely logical to use them for the purpose for which they were created. I have no problem with lowering their numbers, perhaps to zero, as the need for their products become less and less in demand. OTOH I have a greater problem with culling wild animals especially when there is a domesticated alternative.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 8th, 2021, 2:06 am. I have no problem with lowering their numbers, perhaps to zero, as the need for their products become less and less in demand. OTOH I have a greater problem with culling wild animals especially when there is a domesticated alternative.
I have a big problem with this since pasture is the one type of agriculture that is closest to nature, all others are destructive or hopelessly labour intensive.
As I look out of my window there are two key types of agriculture.
1) Wheat. occaisionally Barley, or Rape.
2) Sheep farming. Occaisionally cattle.
Wheat/Rape/Barlet fields require insecticies, fertilisers, deep ploughing and heavy machinery. Each year the soil is posioned to maintain monoculture, and the fertiliser finds its way into the water supply. In winter the soil is left bare to the elements. Since WW2 the fields around me have lost all the soil that was patiently placed their after the receeding iceburgs, by the wind. What took thousands of years to build up has been blown away in two generations. There is next to zero species diversity. What few worms try to survive in the chalk soil are eaten by ravening flocks of gulls each time the plough cuts up the land.

Nearby. There are sheep. The grass is allow to grow for most of the year and provides a home for millions of small creatures from nematodes to ants to worms. These feed birds, and it provides for a wade range of species from fox to badger and even deer..Wild flowers, herbs (seen as weeds by arable farmers) all make great feed for the animals. The impact in the land is small. Some farmers even leave copses and wood and hedgerows for the sheep to shelter. But the biggest contribution is that the sheep drop their excrement everywhere providing the starting ground for many living things as well as gently bourishing the soil - not just NPK but humus. None of this is possible with the plough.
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LuckyR
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 11th, 2021, 9:20 am
LuckyR wrote: July 8th, 2021, 2:06 am. I have no problem with lowering their numbers, perhaps to zero, as the need for their products become less and less in demand. OTOH I have a greater problem with culling wild animals especially when there is a domesticated alternative.
I have a big problem with this since pasture is the one type of agriculture that is closest to nature, all others are destructive or hopelessly labour intensive.
As I look out of my window there are two key types of agriculture.
1) Wheat. occaisionally Barley, or Rape.
2) Sheep farming. Occaisionally cattle.
Wheat/Rape/Barlet fields require insecticies, fertilisers, deep ploughing and heavy machinery. Each year the soil is posioned to maintain monoculture, and the fertiliser finds its way into the water supply. In winter the soil is left bare to the elements. Since WW2 the fields around me have lost all the soil that was patiently placed their after the receeding iceburgs, by the wind. What took thousands of years to build up has been blown away in two generations. There is next to zero species diversity. What few worms try to survive in the chalk soil are eaten by ravening flocks of gulls each time the plough cuts up the land.

Nearby. There are sheep. The grass is allow to grow for most of the year and provides a home for millions of small creatures from nematodes to ants to worms. These feed birds, and it provides for a wade range of species from fox to badger and even deer..Wild flowers, herbs (seen as weeds by arable farmers) all make great feed for the animals. The impact in the land is small. Some farmers even leave copses and wood and hedgerows for the sheep to shelter. But the biggest contribution is that the sheep drop their excrement everywhere providing the starting ground for many living things as well as gently bourishing the soil - not just NPK but humus. None of this is possible with the plough.
Even if what you observed is 100% accurate, no one is supposing that much unused grazing land (if ranching stopped tomorrow) would be converted to cropland. Obviously if domesticated sheep are not needed, wild sheep can fertilize the soil just as well.

More importantly, just as it is a fool's errand to "force" someone to be a vegetarian through argument, it is identically so to try to convince someone to eat meat/dairy using your reasoning.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 11th, 2021, 1:31 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 11th, 2021, 9:20 am
LuckyR wrote: July 8th, 2021, 2:06 am. I have no problem with lowering their numbers, perhaps to zero, as the need for their products become less and less in demand. OTOH I have a greater problem with culling wild animals especially when there is a domesticated alternative.
I have a big problem with this since pasture is the one type of agriculture that is closest to nature, all others are destructive or hopelessly labour intensive.
As I look out of my window there are two key types of agriculture.
1) Wheat. occaisionally Barley, or Rape.
2) Sheep farming. Occaisionally cattle.
Wheat/Rape/Barlet fields require insecticies, fertilisers, deep ploughing and heavy machinery. Each year the soil is posioned to maintain monoculture, and the fertiliser finds its way into the water supply. In winter the soil is left bare to the elements. Since WW2 the fields around me have lost all the soil that was patiently placed their after the receeding iceburgs, by the wind. What took thousands of years to build up has been blown away in two generations. There is next to zero species diversity. What few worms try to survive in the chalk soil are eaten by ravening flocks of gulls each time the plough cuts up the land.

Nearby. There are sheep. The grass is allow to grow for most of the year and provides a home for millions of small creatures from nematodes to ants to worms. These feed birds, and it provides for a wade range of species from fox to badger and even deer..Wild flowers, herbs (seen as weeds by arable farmers) all make great feed for the animals. The impact in the land is small. Some farmers even leave copses and wood and hedgerows for the sheep to shelter. But the biggest contribution is that the sheep drop their excrement everywhere providing the starting ground for many living things as well as gently bourishing the soil - not just NPK but humus. None of this is possible with the plough.
Even if what you observed is 100% accurate, no one is supposing that much unused grazing land (if ranching stopped tomorrow) would be converted to cropland. Obviously if domesticated sheep are not needed, wild sheep can fertilize the soil just as well.

More importantly, just as it is a fool's errand to "force" someone to be a vegetarian through argument, it is identically so to try to convince someone to eat meat/dairy using your reasoning.
It is fully accurate. I was walking the land today, and counted at least 8 species of grass, daffodils, daisies, dandylions, Dock, plainatain, 3 types of thistle, 4+ types of clover, bramble, nettles, chamomile, two species of orchid, and at least a dozen other wild flowers I do not know the names of. I also saw a kestrel hunting mice which I know to be common here because my dog finds them. And wow there were Bees!!
The field to my left has Wheat with some hybrid grasses at the margins, That's it.

I am not saying that all the pasture would go under the plough, but one thing is for certain there is no way a vegan world is going to keep the animals on it. And there is no way wild sheep are going to be introduced- Every acre is accounted for and there is no scope for wilding the land. Too many people. They would probably sell it off for building to serve a new generation of human population boom made possible by cheap land whilst Vegans flew in more french beans from Nigeria.
You may not recognise this reality in the USA, but wait a little while longer. 442 Million acres are already monoculture in the USA.
"Ranching"- what planet are you on?? Planet US I suppose?
What do you think would happen to all the pasture land?
AverageBozo
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by AverageBozo »

Let vegans be vegans. Their rationale may be irrational to omnivores, but it is reasonable to vegan eyes.

A vegan may tell me, while trying to convince me not to eat meat, fish, poultry, eggs or dairy, and not to make use of any product derived from or by means of any sort of animals, or just in rationalizing his/her thinking to me, that God exists, therefore being vegan is the right thing to do, or that God told people to be vegan, or even that to be vegan is why the sky is green.

No matter. Whatever the argument, it’s solid for vegans and bat-**** crazy to omnivores.

(Just for fun, re-read the above paragraphs but transpose “vegan” and “omnivore”.)
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LuckyR
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 11th, 2021, 2:39 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 11th, 2021, 1:31 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 11th, 2021, 9:20 am
LuckyR wrote: July 8th, 2021, 2:06 am. I have no problem with lowering their numbers, perhaps to zero, as the need for their products become less and less in demand. OTOH I have a greater problem with culling wild animals especially when there is a domesticated alternative.
I have a big problem with this since pasture is the one type of agriculture that is closest to nature, all others are destructive or hopelessly labour intensive.
As I look out of my window there are two key types of agriculture.
1) Wheat. occaisionally Barley, or Rape.
2) Sheep farming. Occaisionally cattle.
Wheat/Rape/Barlet fields require insecticies, fertilisers, deep ploughing and heavy machinery. Each year the soil is posioned to maintain monoculture, and the fertiliser finds its way into the water supply. In winter the soil is left bare to the elements. Since WW2 the fields around me have lost all the soil that was patiently placed their after the receeding iceburgs, by the wind. What took thousands of years to build up has been blown away in two generations. There is next to zero species diversity. What few worms try to survive in the chalk soil are eaten by ravening flocks of gulls each time the plough cuts up the land.

Nearby. There are sheep. The grass is allow to grow for most of the year and provides a home for millions of small creatures from nematodes to ants to worms. These feed birds, and it provides for a wade range of species from fox to badger and even deer..Wild flowers, herbs (seen as weeds by arable farmers) all make great feed for the animals. The impact in the land is small. Some farmers even leave copses and wood and hedgerows for the sheep to shelter. But the biggest contribution is that the sheep drop their excrement everywhere providing the starting ground for many living things as well as gently bourishing the soil - not just NPK but humus. None of this is possible with the plough.
Even if what you observed is 100% accurate, no one is supposing that much unused grazing land (if ranching stopped tomorrow) would be converted to cropland. Obviously if domesticated sheep are not needed, wild sheep can fertilize the soil just as well.

More importantly, just as it is a fool's errand to "force" someone to be a vegetarian through argument, it is identically so to try to convince someone to eat meat/dairy using your reasoning.
It is fully accurate. I was walking the land today, and counted at least 8 species of grass, daffodils, daisies, dandylions, Dock, plainatain, 3 types of thistle, 4+ types of clover, bramble, nettles, chamomile, two species of orchid, and at least a dozen other wild flowers I do not know the names of. I also saw a kestrel hunting mice which I know to be common here because my dog finds them. And wow there were Bees!!
The field to my left has Wheat with some hybrid grasses at the margins, That's it.

I am not saying that all the pasture would go under the plough, but one thing is for certain there is no way a vegan world is going to keep the animals on it. And there is no way wild sheep are going to be introduced- Every acre is accounted for and there is no scope for wilding the land. Too many people. They would probably sell it off for building to serve a new generation of human population boom made possible by cheap land whilst Vegans flew in more french beans from Nigeria.
You may not recognise this reality in the USA, but wait a little while longer. 442 Million acres are already monoculture in the USA.
"Ranching"- what planet are you on?? Planet US I suppose?
What do you think would happen to all the pasture land?
I know you're not saying all pastureland would be ploughed under, the idea is totally ridiculous.

Right now 30 million sq km are pastureland, while only 14 million are cropland. However cropland typically yields 2 to 18 million calories per acre while pastureland typically yields 1 to 3.5

Thus it would only take about 6 million sq km (of the 30 million total) to convert to cropland to meet the calories lost ie 80% of pastureland wouldn't need to change at all.

But as I mentioned all of this is silly. Folks generally don't choose what to eat based on this type of information.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 12th, 2021, 2:33 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 11th, 2021, 2:39 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 11th, 2021, 1:31 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 11th, 2021, 9:20 am

I have a big problem with this since pasture is the one type of agriculture that is closest to nature, all others are destructive or hopelessly labour intensive.
As I look out of my window there are two key types of agriculture.
1) Wheat. occaisionally Barley, or Rape.
2) Sheep farming. Occaisionally cattle.
Wheat/Rape/Barlet fields require insecticies, fertilisers, deep ploughing and heavy machinery. Each year the soil is posioned to maintain monoculture, and the fertiliser finds its way into the water supply. In winter the soil is left bare to the elements. Since WW2 the fields around me have lost all the soil that was patiently placed their after the receeding iceburgs, by the wind. What took thousands of years to build up has been blown away in two generations. There is next to zero species diversity. What few worms try to survive in the chalk soil are eaten by ravening flocks of gulls each time the plough cuts up the land.

Nearby. There are sheep. The grass is allow to grow for most of the year and provides a home for millions of small creatures from nematodes to ants to worms. These feed birds, and it provides for a wade range of species from fox to badger and even deer..Wild flowers, herbs (seen as weeds by arable farmers) all make great feed for the animals. The impact in the land is small. Some farmers even leave copses and wood and hedgerows for the sheep to shelter. But the biggest contribution is that the sheep drop their excrement everywhere providing the starting ground for many living things as well as gently bourishing the soil - not just NPK but humus. None of this is possible with the plough.
Even if what you observed is 100% accurate, no one is supposing that much unused grazing land (if ranching stopped tomorrow) would be converted to cropland. Obviously if domesticated sheep are not needed, wild sheep can fertilize the soil just as well.

More importantly, just as it is a fool's errand to "force" someone to be a vegetarian through argument, it is identically so to try to convince someone to eat meat/dairy using your reasoning.
It is fully accurate. I was walking the land today, and counted at least 8 species of grass, daffodils, daisies, dandylions, Dock, plainatain, 3 types of thistle, 4+ types of clover, bramble, nettles, chamomile, two species of orchid, and at least a dozen other wild flowers I do not know the names of. I also saw a kestrel hunting mice which I know to be common here because my dog finds them. And wow there were Bees!!
The field to my left has Wheat with some hybrid grasses at the margins, That's it.

I am not saying that all the pasture would go under the plough, but one thing is for certain there is no way a vegan world is going to keep the animals on it. And there is no way wild sheep are going to be introduced- Every acre is accounted for and there is no scope for wilding the land. Too many people. They would probably sell it off for building to serve a new generation of human population boom made possible by cheap land whilst Vegans flew in more french beans from Nigeria.
You may not recognise this reality in the USA, but wait a little while longer. 442 Million acres are already monoculture in the USA.
"Ranching"- what planet are you on?? Planet US I suppose?
What do you think would happen to all the pasture land?
I know you're not saying all pastureland would be ploughed under, the idea is totally ridiculous.

Right now 30 million sq km are pastureland, while only 14 million are cropland. However cropland typically yields 2 to 18 million calories per acre while pastureland typically yields 1 to 3.5
I know that but..
I do not care about that. Food is not just about calories. And, I care about the environment. We already have more food than we can eat and half of all crops end up being thrown away.
What could sent excess vegetable foods to the thrid world but what we actually do is to buy their cash crops from them with disastrous consequences for their people.

Thus it would only take about 6 million sq km (of the 30 million total) to convert to cropland to meet the calories lost ie 80% of pastureland wouldn't need to change at all.

But as I mentioned all of this is silly. Folks generally don't choose what to eat based on this type of information.
Indeed.
It's also really important to know that much of the pasture land, such as on Welsh & Scotting hill farms there is no prospect of any kind of arable farming. Across the world this could represent billions of acres.
It behoves society to promote systems that help the environment
Scott prevents me using URls. But the reference is here... replace the first 6 "-" with "/"

theguardian-com-environment-2013-jan-10-half-world-food-waste
Last edited by Sculptor1 on July 12th, 2021, 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
CIN
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by CIN »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself.
I presume you have other duties as well. Might it not be the case that those other duties are more important than your supposed duty to be vegan? Do you not, for example have a duty to try to avoid catching a killer virus and passing it on to vulnerable people?

I'm vegetarian. But that's not all I am. I'm also a human living in close proximity to other humans, and I've no wish to be responsible for killing any of them by catching an avoidable virus and passing it on.

If I refused the vaccine, my refusal would have no effect at all on any of the decisions that led to the creation if the vaccine, including how it was tested. However, my refusal might lead to people around me dying. So my actual choice is between making an empty gesture, and doing something that might save a life.

I've had my two jabs. I'm sorry about the monkeys, but I think I've done the right thing.
Philosophy is a waste of time. But then, so is most of life.
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Empiricist-Bruno
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

CIN wrote: July 12th, 2021, 7:08 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself.
I presume you have other duties as well. Might it not be the case that those other duties are more important than your supposed duty to be vegan? Do you not, for example have a duty to try to avoid catching a killer virus and passing it on to vulnerable people?

I'm vegetarian. But that's not all I am. I'm also a human living in close proximity to other humans, and I've no wish to be responsible for killing any of them by catching an avoidable virus and passing it on.

If I refused the vaccine, my refusal would have no effect at all on any of the decisions that led to the creation if the vaccine, including how it was tested. However, my refusal might lead to people around me dying. So my actual choice is between making an empty gesture, and doing something that might save a life.

I've had my two jabs. I'm sorry about the monkeys, but I think I've done the right thing.
As a vegetarian, I can't hold it against you to use animal-tested products because that is what vegetarians do. I agree that you have done the right vegetarian thing but the right thing to do is doing the true vegan thing.

Generally, vegetarians aren't concerned about animal welfare issues and won't be sorry about the monkeys killed in the legally mandated experimental COVID-19 vaccine trials. So, if you truly are sorry about the dead monkeys, it suggests that you are leaning towards veganism. Given that, I feel that I can/should explain to you where you went wrong.

First, you need to understand that COVID-19 is a zoonotic disease and that means a disease that is passed on from animal to human (and even if it is the byproduct of a bio warfare lab, there are other sets of arguments a vegan can use, but I won't go into that right now). Zoonotic disease have been associated with farm animals and with wild animals hunting. Pandemic predictions, such as the one we are in, stemming from zoonotic disease have been made by scientists for a long time. We shouldn't be surprised at all about what is happening right now. So, if I were to use your logic, people who eat meat have been exposing you to a deadly pandemic of their making. Do they love you? Do they care for you as a human being? My impression is that they certainly do not care. What they care about is their life style their dominance and their recklessness. The COVID-19 is their disease but just like with alcoholics, others are affected by them. So, caring for people who would be happy to kill or torture you if it served some purpose for them is something that you should not feel obliged to do. You have a right to attempt to preserve yourself. Adopting the ways of those who have created this mess is an admission of defeat in this respect. By using animal tested products, you too become responsible for this pandemic, even if you didn't eat meat. That's my opinion because vegetarianism does not make a stance for the animals like veganism does. So although you didn't yourself directly helped much with the breeding of this virus due to your vegetarianism, you never really stood up against those who prepared this pandemic for all and who continue to prepare the next one as well.

I do feel it as a duty to try and avoid a killer virus for myself and to pass it on to others and I wear a mask in indoor settings and follow guidelines in this matter. The use of vaccine against this disease would be great but those who made it don't take the vegans into consideration. They actually can't take vegans into consideration because it is the law to test such products onto animals. Why are there laws that make it impossible to come up with a vegan COVID-19 vaccine? Why haven't these law been set aside in anticipation of such an event to ensure that everyone can be vaccinated? These laws form a slightly disguised murder attempt on the community of true vegans. But now, looking at your argument, I see that it is us, the true vegans, who have to defend ourselves as acting like cold blooded indifferent killers!! It's a clear case of blaming the victim, and that's what is referred to as bullying. "Suck on your own disease" is my response to people who feel I should get a non-vegan COVID-19 vaccine.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 12th, 2021, 8:44 pm
CIN wrote: July 12th, 2021, 7:08 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself.
I presume you have other duties as well. Might it not be the case that those other duties are more important than your supposed duty to be vegan? Do you not, for example have a duty to try to avoid catching a killer virus and passing it on to vulnerable people?

I'm vegetarian. But that's not all I am. I'm also a human living in close proximity to other humans, and I've no wish to be responsible for killing any of them by catching an avoidable virus and passing it on.

If I refused the vaccine, my refusal would have no effect at all on any of the decisions that led to the creation if the vaccine, including how it was tested. However, my refusal might lead to people around me dying. So my actual choice is between making an empty gesture, and doing something that might save a life.

I've had my two jabs. I'm sorry about the monkeys, but I think I've done the right thing.
As a vegetarian, I can't hold it against you to use animal-tested products because that is what vegetarians do. I agree that you have done the right vegetarian thing but the right thing to do is doing the true vegan thing.

Generally, vegetarians aren't concerned about animal welfare issues and won't be sorry about the monkeys killed in the legally mandated experimental COVID-19 vaccine trials. So, if you truly are sorry about the dead monkeys, it suggests that you are leaning towards veganism. Given that, I feel that I can/should explain to you where you went wrong.

First, you need to understand that COVID-19 is a zoonotic disease and that means a disease that is passed on from animal to human (and even if it is the byproduct of a bio warfare lab, there are other sets of arguments a vegan can use, but I won't go into that right now). Zoonotic disease have been associated with farm animals and with wild animals hunting. Pandemic predictions, such as the one we are in, stemming from zoonotic disease have been made by scientists for a long time. We shouldn't be surprised at all about what is happening right now. So, if I were to use your logic, people who eat meat have been exposing you to a deadly pandemic of their making. Do they love you? Do they care for you as a human being? My impression is that they certainly do not care. What they care about is their life style their dominance and their recklessness. The COVID-19 is their disease but just like with alcoholics, others are affected by them. So, caring for people who would be happy to kill or torture you if it served some purpose for them is something that you should not feel obliged to do. You have a right to attempt to preserve yourself. Adopting the ways of those who have created this mess is an admission of defeat in this respect. By using animal tested products, you too become responsible for this pandemic, even if you didn't eat meat. That's my opinion because vegetarianism does not make a stance for the animals like veganism does. So although you didn't yourself directly helped much with the breeding of this virus due to your vegetarianism, you never really stood up against those who prepared this pandemic for all and who continue to prepare the next one as well.

I do feel it as a duty to try and avoid a killer virus for myself and to pass it on to others and I wear a mask in indoor settings and follow guidelines in this matter. The use of vaccine against this disease would be great but those who made it don't take the vegans into consideration. They actually can't take vegans into consideration because it is the law to test such products onto animals. Why are there laws that make it impossible to come up with a vegan COVID-19 vaccine? Why haven't these law been set aside in anticipation of such an event to ensure that everyone can be vaccinated? These laws form a slightly disguised murder attempt on the community of true vegans. But now, looking at your argument, I see that it is us, the true vegans, who have to defend ourselves as acting like cold blooded indifferent killers!! It's a clear case of blaming the victim, and that's what is referred to as bullying. "Suck on your own disease" is my response to people who feel I should get a non-vegan COVID-19 vaccine.
Uummm... it ain't gonna be the vaccinated folks who are going to be sucking on the disease, my friend.

Skip it if you want, but it is at your own peril, not mine.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 13th, 2021, 3:02 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 12th, 2021, 8:44 pm
CIN wrote: July 12th, 2021, 7:08 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:16 pm I am a vegan and as such I have the power and even duty (if I care to be worth my designation as vegan) not to use animal products for myself.
I presume you have other duties as well. Might it not be the case that those other duties are more important than your supposed duty to be vegan? Do you not, for example have a duty to try to avoid catching a killer virus and passing it on to vulnerable people?

I'm vegetarian. But that's not all I am. I'm also a human living in close proximity to other humans, and I've no wish to be responsible for killing any of them by catching an avoidable virus and passing it on.

If I refused the vaccine, my refusal would have no effect at all on any of the decisions that led to the creation if the vaccine, including how it was tested. However, my refusal might lead to people around me dying. So my actual choice is between making an empty gesture, and doing something that might save a life.

I've had my two jabs. I'm sorry about the monkeys, but I think I've done the right thing.
As a vegetarian, I can't hold it against you to use animal-tested products because that is what vegetarians do. I agree that you have done the right vegetarian thing but the right thing to do is doing the true vegan thing.

Generally, vegetarians aren't concerned about animal welfare issues and won't be sorry about the monkeys killed in the legally mandated experimental COVID-19 vaccine trials. So, if you truly are sorry about the dead monkeys, it suggests that you are leaning towards veganism. Given that, I feel that I can/should explain to you where you went wrong.

First, you need to understand that COVID-19 is a zoonotic disease and that means a disease that is passed on from animal to human (and even if it is the byproduct of a bio warfare lab, there are other sets of arguments a vegan can use, but I won't go into that right now). Zoonotic disease have been associated with farm animals and with wild animals hunting. Pandemic predictions, such as the one we are in, stemming from zoonotic disease have been made by scientists for a long time. We shouldn't be surprised at all about what is happening right now. So, if I were to use your logic, people who eat meat have been exposing you to a deadly pandemic of their making. Do they love you? Do they care for you as a human being? My impression is that they certainly do not care. What they care about is their life style their dominance and their recklessness. The COVID-19 is their disease but just like with alcoholics, others are affected by them. So, caring for people who would be happy to kill or torture you if it served some purpose for them is something that you should not feel obliged to do. You have a right to attempt to preserve yourself. Adopting the ways of those who have created this mess is an admission of defeat in this respect. By using animal tested products, you too become responsible for this pandemic, even if you didn't eat meat. That's my opinion because vegetarianism does not make a stance for the animals like veganism does. So although you didn't yourself directly helped much with the breeding of this virus due to your vegetarianism, you never really stood up against those who prepared this pandemic for all and who continue to prepare the next one as well.

I do feel it as a duty to try and avoid a killer virus for myself and to pass it on to others and I wear a mask in indoor settings and follow guidelines in this matter. The use of vaccine against this disease would be great but those who made it don't take the vegans into consideration. They actually can't take vegans into consideration because it is the law to test such products onto animals. Why are there laws that make it impossible to come up with a vegan COVID-19 vaccine? Why haven't these law been set aside in anticipation of such an event to ensure that everyone can be vaccinated? These laws form a slightly disguised murder attempt on the community of true vegans. But now, looking at your argument, I see that it is us, the true vegans, who have to defend ourselves as acting like cold blooded indifferent killers!! It's a clear case of blaming the victim, and that's what is referred to as bullying. "Suck on your own disease" is my response to people who feel I should get a non-vegan COVID-19 vaccine.
Uummm... it ain't gonna be the vaccinated folks who are going to be sucking on the disease, my friend.

Skip it if you want, but it is at your own peril, not mine.
Covid is worse that he thinks too.
In the UK alone there are a million people with persistent symptoms. A million people continue to have "LONG COVID". Research is currently looking itnto the possibility that some of it might hopefully be an auto-immune response; whilst muchof it might be permanent organ damage, if it is an autoimmune problem then there is some hope of allieviating the problem.
Many of these people have had long covid for over a year with no respite thus far.
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LuckyR
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Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 13th, 2021, 4:20 am
LuckyR wrote: July 13th, 2021, 3:02 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 12th, 2021, 8:44 pm
CIN wrote: July 12th, 2021, 7:08 pm
I presume you have other duties as well. Might it not be the case that those other duties are more important than your supposed duty to be vegan? Do you not, for example have a duty to try to avoid catching a killer virus and passing it on to vulnerable people?

I'm vegetarian. But that's not all I am. I'm also a human living in close proximity to other humans, and I've no wish to be responsible for killing any of them by catching an avoidable virus and passing it on.

If I refused the vaccine, my refusal would have no effect at all on any of the decisions that led to the creation if the vaccine, including how it was tested. However, my refusal might lead to people around me dying. So my actual choice is between making an empty gesture, and doing something that might save a life.

I've had my two jabs. I'm sorry about the monkeys, but I think I've done the right thing.
As a vegetarian, I can't hold it against you to use animal-tested products because that is what vegetarians do. I agree that you have done the right vegetarian thing but the right thing to do is doing the true vegan thing.

Generally, vegetarians aren't concerned about animal welfare issues and won't be sorry about the monkeys killed in the legally mandated experimental COVID-19 vaccine trials. So, if you truly are sorry about the dead monkeys, it suggests that you are leaning towards veganism. Given that, I feel that I can/should explain to you where you went wrong.

First, you need to understand that COVID-19 is a zoonotic disease and that means a disease that is passed on from animal to human (and even if it is the byproduct of a bio warfare lab, there are other sets of arguments a vegan can use, but I won't go into that right now). Zoonotic disease have been associated with farm animals and with wild animals hunting. Pandemic predictions, such as the one we are in, stemming from zoonotic disease have been made by scientists for a long time. We shouldn't be surprised at all about what is happening right now. So, if I were to use your logic, people who eat meat have been exposing you to a deadly pandemic of their making. Do they love you? Do they care for you as a human being? My impression is that they certainly do not care. What they care about is their life style their dominance and their recklessness. The COVID-19 is their disease but just like with alcoholics, others are affected by them. So, caring for people who would be happy to kill or torture you if it served some purpose for them is something that you should not feel obliged to do. You have a right to attempt to preserve yourself. Adopting the ways of those who have created this mess is an admission of defeat in this respect. By using animal tested products, you too become responsible for this pandemic, even if you didn't eat meat. That's my opinion because vegetarianism does not make a stance for the animals like veganism does. So although you didn't yourself directly helped much with the breeding of this virus due to your vegetarianism, you never really stood up against those who prepared this pandemic for all and who continue to prepare the next one as well.

I do feel it as a duty to try and avoid a killer virus for myself and to pass it on to others and I wear a mask in indoor settings and follow guidelines in this matter. The use of vaccine against this disease would be great but those who made it don't take the vegans into consideration. They actually can't take vegans into consideration because it is the law to test such products onto animals. Why are there laws that make it impossible to come up with a vegan COVID-19 vaccine? Why haven't these law been set aside in anticipation of such an event to ensure that everyone can be vaccinated? These laws form a slightly disguised murder attempt on the community of true vegans. But now, looking at your argument, I see that it is us, the true vegans, who have to defend ourselves as acting like cold blooded indifferent killers!! It's a clear case of blaming the victim, and that's what is referred to as bullying. "Suck on your own disease" is my response to people who feel I should get a non-vegan COVID-19 vaccine.
Uummm... it ain't gonna be the vaccinated folks who are going to be sucking on the disease, my friend.

Skip it if you want, but it is at your own peril, not mine.
Covid is worse that he thinks too.
In the UK alone there are a million people with persistent symptoms. A million people continue to have "LONG COVID". Research is currently looking itnto the possibility that some of it might hopefully be an auto-immune response; whilst muchof it might be permanent organ damage, if it is an autoimmune problem then there is some hope of allieviating the problem.
Many of these people have had long covid for over a year with no respite thus far.
The CDC here has documented that 99.2% of Covid deaths now that the vaccine is widely available, are among the unvaccinated. What's your guy's experience?
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7092
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 14th, 2021, 12:44 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 13th, 2021, 4:20 am
LuckyR wrote: July 13th, 2021, 3:02 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 12th, 2021, 8:44 pm

As a vegetarian, I can't hold it against you to use animal-tested products because that is what vegetarians do. I agree that you have done the right vegetarian thing but the right thing to do is doing the true vegan thing.

Generally, vegetarians aren't concerned about animal welfare issues and won't be sorry about the monkeys killed in the legally mandated experimental COVID-19 vaccine trials. So, if you truly are sorry about the dead monkeys, it suggests that you are leaning towards veganism. Given that, I feel that I can/should explain to you where you went wrong.

First, you need to understand that COVID-19 is a zoonotic disease and that means a disease that is passed on from animal to human (and even if it is the byproduct of a bio warfare lab, there are other sets of arguments a vegan can use, but I won't go into that right now). Zoonotic disease have been associated with farm animals and with wild animals hunting. Pandemic predictions, such as the one we are in, stemming from zoonotic disease have been made by scientists for a long time. We shouldn't be surprised at all about what is happening right now. So, if I were to use your logic, people who eat meat have been exposing you to a deadly pandemic of their making. Do they love you? Do they care for you as a human being? My impression is that they certainly do not care. What they care about is their life style their dominance and their recklessness. The COVID-19 is their disease but just like with alcoholics, others are affected by them. So, caring for people who would be happy to kill or torture you if it served some purpose for them is something that you should not feel obliged to do. You have a right to attempt to preserve yourself. Adopting the ways of those who have created this mess is an admission of defeat in this respect. By using animal tested products, you too become responsible for this pandemic, even if you didn't eat meat. That's my opinion because vegetarianism does not make a stance for the animals like veganism does. So although you didn't yourself directly helped much with the breeding of this virus due to your vegetarianism, you never really stood up against those who prepared this pandemic for all and who continue to prepare the next one as well.

I do feel it as a duty to try and avoid a killer virus for myself and to pass it on to others and I wear a mask in indoor settings and follow guidelines in this matter. The use of vaccine against this disease would be great but those who made it don't take the vegans into consideration. They actually can't take vegans into consideration because it is the law to test such products onto animals. Why are there laws that make it impossible to come up with a vegan COVID-19 vaccine? Why haven't these law been set aside in anticipation of such an event to ensure that everyone can be vaccinated? These laws form a slightly disguised murder attempt on the community of true vegans. But now, looking at your argument, I see that it is us, the true vegans, who have to defend ourselves as acting like cold blooded indifferent killers!! It's a clear case of blaming the victim, and that's what is referred to as bullying. "Suck on your own disease" is my response to people who feel I should get a non-vegan COVID-19 vaccine.
Uummm... it ain't gonna be the vaccinated folks who are going to be sucking on the disease, my friend.

Skip it if you want, but it is at your own peril, not mine.
Covid is worse that he thinks too.
In the UK alone there are a million people with persistent symptoms. A million people continue to have "LONG COVID". Research is currently looking itnto the possibility that some of it might hopefully be an auto-immune response; whilst muchof it might be permanent organ damage, if it is an autoimmune problem then there is some hope of allieviating the problem.
Many of these people have had long covid for over a year with no respite thus far.
The CDC here has documented that 99.2% of Covid deaths now that the vaccine is widely available, are among the unvaccinated. What's your guy's experience?
I'd love to know where you get that. The difficulty here is that when 100% of people are vaccinated; then 100% of deaths are going to be people who are vaccinated. So the number is probably false or meaningless. And the meaningless figure is actually 61% in the UK. This does not relfect on how good the vaccine is.

87% have had one dose; 34% have had two doses. And death rates are down, though infection rates are rising rapdily.
But this means that people who would other wise have got seriously ill or died are only getting mild symptoms.

But the next big thing is Long Covid, which is about survivors. Vaccinations mean fewer hospitalisations and deaths, and hopefully less long coivd. But currently 1 million are diagnosed with long term symptoms.
Has long term consequences of Covid infection hit the media in the USA yet?? Because I think it shall.
AverageBozo
Posts: 502
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by AverageBozo »

LuckyR wrote: July 14th, 2021, 12:44 am
The CDC here has documented that 99.2% of Covid deaths now that the vaccine is widely available, are among the unvaccinated. What's your guy's experience?
Does this mean that one political faction will be affected more than any other?

Will it result in fewer voters from the affected political persuasion?
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