Yes. Further: That minarchist libertarian system (in this example applied to healthcare provision) that I was describing doesn't exist anywhere in the world as far as I'm aware. So, as with any theoretical ideal, I guess the question of whether we consider it a desirable ideal towards which we feel we ought to strive has to rest on examining real systems that exist now and have existed in the past, and trying to do a kind of evidence-base extrapolation from them. i.e. looking at systems that differ from minarchist libertarianism by various degrees and seeing if there's a strong pattern suggesting that reducing that difference further would take us closer or further from our goals. That's what most of the arguments with GE Morton (our clearest and most consistent and coherent advocate of it here on this site) tend to consist of. Although obviously they tend to also be heavily diluted by things that aren't really arguments.LuckyR wrote:True enough, with the understanding that "advocated" means "talked about online by folks without experience but doesn't exist anywhere in the West and likely never will".
Triaging hospital beds using patient responsibility as a factor
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Re: Triaging hospital beds using patient responsibility as a factor
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Re: Triaging hospital beds using patient responsibility as a factor
I was talking mostly theoretically, partly because I'm not familiar enough with the nature of the arguments that actually happen in real health services. But having said that, I think there must inevitably be real (official) arguments about this. In any healthcare system with finite resources which doesn't treat healthcare purely as a commercial product, but which treats it, to at least some extent, as a service to be provided for all citizens regardless of their ability to pay, I can't see how those arguments can be avoided. They must surely have to at least be discussed by healthcare management.LuckyR wrote:Are you referring to an official argument or theoretical?Steve3007 wrote:...There's always an argument to be had about the extent to which a patient is responsible for their condition and therefore the priority they might get compared to patients deemed less responsible for their condition....
Personally I'm a strong advocate of the provision of at least some level of healthcare to all citizens in a society, funded by what some people describe as government violent robbery (taxation), but that can't simply mean "everyone should get the healthcare that they need" because of the problems with the word "need". One thing is certain in life: we're all going to die of something. "Need" is a vaguely defined word in this context. In the UK, the NHS was first established in 1948, but the general perception of what healthcare is "needed" has changed since then as the general expectation of what conditions can, and should, be treated has risen.
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Re: Triaging hospital beds using patient responsibility as a factor
I am certainly unsurprised that having a conscience and objecting to certain things as a result will get me to be classified among often careless, self indulgent individuals. Thank God they exist as now I see my problem of "not preventing" a disease a very common condition, which makes me feel better.
COVID-19 is preventable through veganism as this disease originates in animal abusive industries. Vaccination does not stop the disease but is only one of many possible approaches to reduce its spread. It can also have an opposite effect as vaccinated people become careless with other important strategies such as social distancing. And what about vaccinated vegetarians or fake vegans? As they work to prevent this disease and others like it by avoiding meat, they do more than others to prevent COVID-19. So perhaps if they still get COVID-19, they would deserve a bed before a cardiac patient who eats badly? Now although I like the idea, I think doctors and nurses should try and save the most people, regardless of how the disease came about.
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Re: Triaging hospital beds using patient responsibility as a factor
Exactly, and part of the triage protocol is to lower the priority of patients who are unlikely to be saved. Thus in the case of ICUs being full and turning away curable patients, giving a bed to a Covid (or any other) patient who ends up dying represents an error by the triage officer.Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑August 31st, 2021, 5:29 pm I am feeling better now as an unvaccinated person about the prospect of getting sick with a preventable disease, COVID-19. As a true vegan, my conscience forbids me from using products of animal cruelty. So now I simply stand side by side with all kinds of people who indulge in vice, weakness or bad luck and as a result, become part of this high risk group.
I am certainly unsurprised that having a conscience and objecting to certain things as a result will get me to be classified among often careless, self indulgent individuals. Thank God they exist as now I see my problem of "not preventing" a disease a very common condition, which makes me feel better.
COVID-19 is preventable through veganism as this disease originates in animal abusive industries. Vaccination does not stop the disease but is only one of many possible approaches to reduce its spread. It can also have an opposite effect as vaccinated people become careless with other important strategies such as social distancing. And what about vaccinated vegetarians or fake vegans? As they work to prevent this disease and others like it by avoiding meat, they do more than others to prevent COVID-19. So perhaps if they still get COVID-19, they would deserve a bed before a cardiac patient who eats badly? Now although I like the idea, I think doctors and nurses should try and save the most people, regardless of how the disease came about.
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Re: Triaging hospital beds using patient responsibility as a factor
Yes, and one could go as far as to say that any patient who is admitted to a hospital, and goes on to die, represents a poor triage decision.LuckyR wrote: ↑August 31st, 2021, 8:08 pm Exactly, and part of the triage protocol is to lower the priority of patients who are unlikely to be saved. Thus in the case of ICUs being full and turning away curable patients, giving a bed to a Covid (or any other) patient who ends up dying represents an error by the triage officer.
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Re: Triaging hospital beds using patient responsibility as a factor
Assuming a triage situation where patients are being turned away, I agree.AverageBozo wrote: ↑September 1st, 2021, 1:33 pmYes, and one could go as far as to say that any patient who is admitted to a hospital, and goes on to die, represents a poor triage decision.LuckyR wrote: ↑August 31st, 2021, 8:08 pm Exactly, and part of the triage protocol is to lower the priority of patients who are unlikely to be saved. Thus in the case of ICUs being full and turning away curable patients, giving a bed to a Covid (or any other) patient who ends up dying represents an error by the triage officer.
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Re: Triaging hospital beds using patient responsibility as a factor
btw, triage isn’t used unless patients have to be turned away.LuckyR wrote: ↑September 2nd, 2021, 2:16 amAssuming a triage situation where patients are being turned away, I agree.AverageBozo wrote: ↑September 1st, 2021, 1:33 pmYes, and one could go as far as to say that any patient who is admitted to a hospital, and goes on to die, represents a poor triage decision.LuckyR wrote: ↑August 31st, 2021, 8:08 pm Exactly, and part of the triage protocol is to lower the priority of patients who are unlikely to be saved. Thus in the case of ICUs being full and turning away curable patients, giving a bed to a Covid (or any other) patient who ends up dying represents an error by the triage officer.
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