Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

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Leontiskos
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by Leontiskos »

GE Morton wrote: February 8th, 2022, 4:39 pm
Leontiskos wrote: February 8th, 2022, 1:55 pm The simple fact of the matter is that the kind of non-violent resistance motivated by love, which was the hallmark of Gandhi and King, come straight out of the gospels.
Gandhi, an Hindu, was motivated by the Christian gospels?
Yes. Gandhi's non-violent approach came directly from his encounter with the gospels that occurred when he was studying law in England. He never became a Christian, and he did incorporate other religious texts from Hinduism like the Bhagavad Gita, but the Sermon on the Mount remained central to his thinking. King was highly influenced by Gandhi's implementation of this ideal, and he studied the way Gandhi instantiated it. Contemporaries of Gandhi, such as Sri Aurobindo, rejected Gandhi's Christian influences and promoted violence, claiming that it was the proper way to deal with British colonialism.
GE Morton wrote: February 8th, 2022, 4:39 pm
Leontiskos wrote: February 8th, 2022, 1:55 pmAs King clearly articulates in An Experiment in Love, loving your enemies—especially when they are beating you with a billy club—is not the sort of thing that has any credibility apart from a religious worldview.
Oh, sure it does. Passive resistance is as old as politics, employed by the soldiers' wives in Aristophanes' Lysistrata. Nor does it require, or is typically motivated, by any love for one's enemies. It is a tactic calculated to win public sympathy by forcing the enemy to resort to visible violence, while the protesters remain peaceful.
King and Gandhi were both forcefully clear that their movements were different from passive resistance, which as you say does not require any love for one's oppressors. They would remonstrate their followers if they fell into that approach.

It seems like you don't know much at all about King (or Gandhi).
GE Morton wrote: February 8th, 2022, 4:39 pm
Leontiskos wrote: February 8th, 2022, 1:55 pmIn any case, your line is beside the point. If you want to make a fine distinction between inspiring and empowering, then I would reiterate the point I already made. It is specifically King’s non-violent protests, sit-ins, and marches that were empowering. We can leave the speeches and sermons aside for the sake of argument.
The Montgomery Bus Boycott was the first, and triggering, event of the civil rights protests of the '60s. It was organized by Parks and her colleagues at the local chapter of the NAACP. King, at the time the pastor of one of Montgomery's black churches, quickly signed on, as did the leaders of other black churches in the city.
You've already told us about Rosa Parks, and I already admitted that she is a non-religious example. What about "King’s non-violent protests, sit-ins, and marches"? You know, the thing I actually put forward as evidence for my position? The fact that Rosa Parks existed doesn't mean Martin Luther King Jr. didn't.
GE Morton wrote: February 8th, 2022, 4:39 pm
Leontiskos wrote: February 8th, 2022, 1:55 pmDo you see what your anti-religious bias caused you to do here? It caused you to blatantly misrepresent a historical fact in order to try to score a point against religion. Anyone who has read King's sermons knows that they are not appeals to "the fear of the wrath of God." Either you are especially ignorant of King's preaching, or else your anti-religious bias is hijacking your critical judgment.
I've read none of King's sermons. But I've read several of his public speeches, and religious appeals are rare in them, and entirely absent in most. What "fact" did I misrepresent?
You implied that the choice is between King appealing to the "American dream" in a speech, or King appealing to the "fear of the wrath of God" in a sermon. In fact King's sermons are not characteristically about the fear of the wrath of God. (I don't know of any that are, but I have not read them all.) This is the sort of misrepresentation that functions as a strawman.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by GE Morton »

AmericanKestrel wrote: February 8th, 2022, 7:25 pm This might bring you up to speed on the role of the Black church in keeping up the morale and hope of Black people.
Keeping up morale and hope are not the same as inspiring rebellion and calling for civil disobedience. They are alternatives to it, which black (and white) churches had offered for centuries, not only for segregation, but for many other forms of oppression throughout history. "Be humble and patient; your reward awaits in Heaven."
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by Ecurb »

AmericanKestrel wrote: February 8th, 2022, 2:57 pm

in that case you were in a privileged position with no psychological burden. you had options. it is the lack options that can lead to depression, addiction and other mental health problems.
Of course. But it's also true that sociologists like to find sociological (i.e. statistical) explanations for things. Clearly (I think) both religion and the "mental health burden of poverty" are cultural. The hunter and gatherer is poor as a church mouse, but he bears no psychic burden. Or if he does, he doesn't dwell on it -- he sees it as part of the uncertainty of life. If the "psychological burden of poverty" exists, it exists mainly because of cultural norms and ideals, not because of poverty.

OK, poverty has something to do with it. If the "burden" of poverty is largely cultural (instead of "sociological" -- i.e. based merely on measureable poverty), then of course a change in culture might alleviate it. I'm guessing religious people see the value of their fellow parishoners even if they are poor (or, if they don't, they aren't good Christians). So I don't doubt that religiosity mitigates the mental health burden of poverty, but I'd suggest that mental health "burden" -- like religion -- is largely culturally constituted. Faith in norms suggesting that poverty is no sin, and nothing to be ashamed of may very well alleviate its burdens.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by AmericanKestrel »

GE Morton wrote: February 8th, 2022, 8:57 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: February 8th, 2022, 7:25 pm This might bring you up to speed on the role of the Black church in keeping up the morale and hope of Black people.
Keeping up morale and hope are not the same as inspiring rebellion and calling for civil disobedience. They are alternatives to it, which black (and white) churches had offered for centuries, not only for segregation, but for many other forms of oppression throughout history. "Be humble and patient; your reward awaits in Heaven."
Religion gave Black people a way to see themselves as human, lovable, with inherent value. This is true for all, not just the poor or Black. The activism to claim equal rights came out of the Black church because of their their lives matter.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

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GE Morton wrote: February 8th, 2022, 1:40 pm
chewybrian wrote: February 8th, 2022, 5:24 am
People are not just one more tool to be put to use or one more obstacle to be overcome. They need to be treated as ends, not means, if we are ever going to build a society that works in the long run. The fact that we have learned the equations of finance does not allow us to ignore all the other realities of life. It is a convenient lie of finance that we have a duty to ignore 'externalities'--if an outcome is 'external' to the profit and loss analysis, it is never our concern.
No, there is no duty to ignore externalities. On the contrary, there is a duty to avoid them, and when they occur, to mitigate them. But you seem not to understand what an externality is: it is a consequence of private transaction which imposes some sort of cost, or loss, on parties not involved in the transaction.
I studied finance in college, and the professor told us straight out that externalities are not the concern of the CFO, or by extension the CEO. They are, by his definition, any considerations that do not affect the outcome of equations meant to maximize shareholders' equity, which is the one and only concern of the CFO. He told us that things like pollution, exploiting child labor, the mental health of your employees and such were only valid concerns to the extent that they affect the bottom line. We were instructed quite literally that our job was to increase the wealth of the shareholders by any means allowed by law, and to take our concerns about moral problems to our priest or shrink, but not to the boardroom.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by chewybrian »

GE Morton wrote: February 8th, 2022, 1:40 pm As for treating workers as means, yes, employers treat their employees as means to their ends. Employees likewise treat their employer as a means to their ends. Employees have no more concern for the welfare of their employers than the employer does for their welfare, which, for both, is usually limited to the effect the other's welfare will have on their own (such as an employee being sick and unable to work, or an employer going out of business).
What you say here betrays the ground level beliefs that help you build your model of the way the world should or must work. You assume that everyone is out for themselves all the time and, therefore, the optimum system through which we interact must accept, reward or even glorify selfish behavior. I don't accept the polar opposite, but rather argue that the truth is in between. Further, I contend that we should be making an effort across the generations to move away from your tragic Ayn Rand ideal of selfishness toward something better.

I don't ask that we jump to communism, because we are clearly not emotionally developed enough for it to work, and may never be. But, we have many examples going now in the world that show we can have things like national health care, free higher education and excellent public transportation. We can tax the wealthy and house the poor and there is nothing foolish or impossible about these ideas. The societies that have done these things report the happiest residents in the world, which is strong evidence for my contentions.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by Ecurb »

chewybrian wrote: February 9th, 2022, 8:06 am

What you say here betrays the ground level beliefs that help you build your model of the way the world should or must work. You assume that everyone is out for themselves all the time and, therefore, the optimum system through which we interact must accept, reward or even glorify selfish behavior. I don't accept the polar opposite, but rather argue that the truth is in between. Further, I contend that we should be making an effort across the generations to move away from your tragic Ayn Rand ideal of selfishness toward something better.

I don't ask that we jump to communism, because we are clearly not emotionally developed enough for it to work, and may never be. But, we have many examples going now in the world that show we can have things like national health care, free higher education and excellent public transportation. We can tax the wealthy and house the poor and there is nothing foolish or impossible about these ideas. The societies that have done these things report the happiest residents in the world, which is strong evidence for my contentions.
I agree in general, but since we've spent some of this thread questioning the methods of sociology, I'll point out that those "happiness" studies (Denmark! The happiest country in the world!) are doubtless biased and based on either statistics about health and financial well-being or questionairres and polls. Somehow I doubt that the academics creating the methods for the study would suddenly discover that heroin addicts are the happiest people in the world. But perhaps they are.

As Marx and GE Morton inform us, religion is the opiate of the masses. Is it likely that the sociologists would create methods that find that religious nations are the happiest? I doubt it. But, if religion mitigates the mental health burdens of poverty, isn't it likely that it eases the mental health burdens of the wealthy, too? This is a standard evangelical pitch: "Turn to Jesus and you can be as happy as I" (except they usually say, "me").

I have no idea what measurements the maven's of "happiest country" studies use. But I'd be willing to bet they involve self-fulfilling prophecies. Assumptions about how material wealth, liberal education, and financial security build happiness are built into the questions asked. Assumptions are probably based on some sort of secular humanism, and ignore (or even discredit) the benefits of religion. Why, if religion mitigates psychological problems -- are the "happiest countries" non-religious? Is it the truth -- or a product of the prejudices of the sociologists?


By the way, wasn't Hamlet a Dane?
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by chewybrian »

Ecurb wrote: February 9th, 2022, 12:56 pm I have no idea what measurements the maven's of "happiest country" studies use. But I'd be willing to bet they involve self-fulfilling prophecies. Assumptions about how material wealth, liberal education, and financial security build happiness are built into the questions asked. Assumptions are probably based on some sort of secular humanism, and ignore (or even discredit) the benefits of religion. Why, if religion mitigates psychological problems -- are the "happiest countries" non-religious? Is it the truth -- or a product of the prejudices of the sociologists?


By the way, wasn't Hamlet a Dane?
I don't know the criteria for 'happiest'. Perhaps I am projecting my own wishes and fears, but I suspect it is the best possible combination of freedom and security. That is what I think would make me happiest. I want to be free to pursue my own dreams, but also have a safety net, like health care if I become disabled, or perhaps even treatment for addiction if I got hooked on heroin.

Here in the U.S., uncertainty reigns and disaster is always around the corner for most of us. I am free to do what I want if I am able, but also subject to being in real trouble if I lose my job, get sick, or even if my car breaks down. In those other countries, I would have excellent unemployment benefits, free training or schooling to get a new job, free or low cost health care, and good public transportation to get around if I needed it. The slightly excessive freedom available to us here only seems worth having in exchange for all that if you also have great means to be able to cover yourself against any of those problems. Most of us don't have those things covered, and we are a couple paychecks from disaster.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by GE Morton »

AmericanKestrel wrote: February 9th, 2022, 4:59 am
Religion gave Black people a way to see themselves as human, lovable, with inherent value. This is true for all, not just the poor or Black. The activism to claim equal rights came out of the Black church because of their their lives matter.
No, the activism did not "come out of the black church." Until the 1960s black churches, like white churches, preached passive obedience to civil authority, and cited biblical passages to support that obligation:

Ephesians 6:5-8: “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ.”

1 Peter 2:18: “Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.”
---------------
“Christianity was proslavery,” said Yolanda Pierce, the dean of the divinity school at Howard University. “So much of early American Christian identity is predicated on a proslavery theology. From the naming of the slave ships, to who sponsored some of these journeys including some churches, to the fact that so much of early American religious rhetoric is deeply intertwined . . . with slaveholding: It is proslavery.”

In the generations since — including during the civil rights movement of the 1960s, as well as a present-day movement spurring new interest in African religions — some African Americans have rejected Christianity as the religion of the oppressor. Many have embraced Islam or have explored African traditions; young adults today include complaints about the church not doing enough to address racial injustice on their long list of reasons for leaving church.

But for vast numbers, both centuries ago and now, Christianity motivated and uplifted with the promise of heavenly rewards and the possibility that their reward might come on earth, too. Christianity brought enslaved Africans "this powerful and profound sense of hope. That Jesus would return. That there is a life and world after this life. That what is going on with the human body, the mortal realm, is just temporary. That there is eternity. That you will be rewarded, you will experience joy and peace and comfort. . . . That this God is a God of transformation,” Pierce said. “No wonder it was embraced.”
---------------
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/th ... story.html

The promise of "rewards in the afterlife" is not a call to action. That came from courageous individuals primarily inspired by the natural rights ideals expressed in the American founding documents --- the same ideals which motivated feminists 50 years earlier:

"It was we, the people; not we, the white male citizens; nor yet we, the male citizens; but we, the whole people, who formed the Union. And we formed it, not to give the blessings of liberty, but to secure them; not to the half of ourselves and the half of our posterity, but to the whole people - women as well as men."
---Susan B. Anthony (1873)

https://www.historynet.com/susan-b-anth ... -males.htm
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by GE Morton »

chewybrian wrote: February 9th, 2022, 7:55 am
I studied finance in college, and the professor told us straight out that externalities are not the concern of the CFO, or by extension the CEO. They are, by his definition, any considerations that do not affect the outcome of equations meant to maximize shareholders' equity, which is the one and only concern of the CFO. He told us that things like pollution, exploiting child labor, the mental health of your employees and such were only valid concerns to the extent that they affect the bottom line. We were instructed quite literally that our job was to increase the wealth of the shareholders by any means allowed by law, and to take our concerns about moral problems to our priest or shrink, but not to the boardroom.
When I said there is a duty to avoid or mitigate externalities, I meant a moral duty. Your professor was speaking of his fiduciary duty, which is indeed as he described it. It is up to the rest of us to make sure that ignoring that moral duty does affect his bottom line, e.g., by enacting and enforcing liability laws, which would then bring that moral duty within the scope of his fiduciary duty.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by Ecurb »

chewybrian wrote: February 9th, 2022, 3:28 pm

I don't know the criteria for 'happiest'. Perhaps I am projecting my own wishes and fears, but I suspect it is the best possible combination of freedom and security. That is what I think would make me happiest. I want to be free to pursue my own dreams, but also have a safety net, like health care if I become disabled, or perhaps even treatment for addiction if I got hooked on heroin.

Here in the U.S., uncertainty reigns and disaster is always around the corner for most of us. I am free to do what I want if I am able, but also subject to being in real trouble if I lose my job, get sick, or even if my car breaks down. In those other countries, I would have excellent unemployment benefits, free training or schooling to get a new job, free or low cost health care, and good public transportation to get around if I needed it. The slightly excessive freedom available to us here only seems worth having in exchange for all that if you also have great means to be able to cover yourself against any of those problems. Most of us don't have those things covered, and we are a couple paychecks from disaster.
I imagine you are correct about the criteria measured by sociologists. But it seems a negative way of viewing "happiness". Security is well and good -- but mountaineers, ski racers, sky divers and big-wave surfers seem to seek happiness elsewhere. What about social and familial relationships? Aren't they more important to "happiness" than the security a good welfare system provides? Perhaps the relationships and sense of comminity provided by religious groups are as important as free university.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: February 9th, 2022, 4:03 pm

When I said there is a duty to avoid or mitigate externalities, I meant a moral duty. Your professor was speaking of his fiduciary duty, which is indeed as he described it. It is up to the rest of us to make sure that ignoring that moral duty does affect his bottom line, e.g., by enacting and enforcing liability laws, which would then bring that moral duty within the scope of his fiduciary duty.
Why should a wage slave (even a CFO) have more duty to stock holders than to his fellow employees? Of course the stock holders can fire him, if they don't approve of his performance, but the notion (commonly held in America) that executives are the allies of the owners instead of the employees seems misguided. Any employee wants to perform in such a way as to keep his job -- but sometimes loyalty of those you manage is as important in that respect as loyalty to the financial interests of the owners. (Of course stock options are one way to get executives to view things as owners.)
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by GE Morton »

GE Morton wrote: February 9th, 2022, 4:03 pm
When I said there is a duty to avoid or mitigate externalities, I meant a moral duty. Your professor was speaking of his fiduciary duty, which is indeed as he described it. It is up to the rest of us to make sure that ignoring that moral duty does affect his bottom line, e.g., by enacting and enforcing liability laws, which would then bring that moral duty within the scope of his fiduciary duty.
I neglected to re-state the point that unexpected, undesirable outcomes for the parties ensuing from a contract don't constitute externalities. Externalities are costs inflicted upon uninvolved non-parties.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: February 9th, 2022, 5:38 pm
Why should a wage slave (even a CFO) have more duty to stock holders than to his fellow employees?
Because maximizing returns to the stockholders is the job they hired him to do. They are ones paying him.
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Re: Religiosity mitigates mental health burden of poverty

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: February 9th, 2022, 8:22 pm
Because maximizing returns to the stockholders is the job they hired him to do. They are ones paying him.
So what? They can choose not to pay him (if they find his work not worth the money). Surely in your own veiw of things he's out to maximize his own benefits, not those of the stock holders. After all, if he asks for a raise, that lowers profits, doesn't it? Does he have a "fiduciary duty" to never ask for a raise? Maybe he likes the comraderie of the work place and likes to see his co-workers happy. He's not a U.S. President or a soldier. He hasn't taken any oaths, with his hand upon (horrors!) the Bible vowing to work for the interest of the stock holders. He has no "duty" to do so, except self interest (and the interest of his co-workers, which may involve making sure the company stays afloat).
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