Ethical Vaccine Distribution
- codyharper
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- Empiricist-Bruno
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Re: Ethical Vaccine Distribution
You know that I am not a pig? Where do you get your hindsight?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 26th, 2021, 7:18 amObfuscation.Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑October 25th, 2021, 5:38 pmWhere did you get that from? Many people consider themselves animals, no?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 25th, 2021, 6:27 amEthics is principally for humans, not animals.Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑October 25th, 2021, 6:19 am Ethical vaccine distribution starts with giving it to those who understand the risks/ benefits involved. Given that the vaccine was first distributed among captive, unwilling animals it is pretty clear that too few of us care about ethical vaccine distribution otherwise we would be jailing all the scientific community involved in the development of the vaccine.
Unethical scientists don't develop vaccines for people but simply because they rush to create something that naive people will want to buy.
In today's world, economic rules dictate how the vaccine will be distributed. If you care about ethics, go vegan or you need to be considered hypocritical, which is not really ethical. Going vegan means to reject products tested on animals, including the life saving products recently created by capitalists who caused the deadly problem in the first place and who try to present their evil products as the solution.
I doubt that you would want to offer yourself in place of an animal for testing, though there is not doubt you have gained much by their sacrifice.
Put it this way . Ethics is principally for humans, not NON-humans.And yet many humans dis EXACTLY that.
I certainly would offer myself for testing in certain circumstances such as if a rabid bat bit me and the first anti rabies vaccine was being offered as an experimental treatment. But you are correct to say that I would not volunteer to be given deliberately a deadly virus to see if my experimental vaccine was effective against it followed shortly after with me being killed so I could be dissected to see if the vaccine did indeed help or not fight the disease in my lungs.
It's a pity that you rate pigs over your own species.It's only far fetched to a person who does not care about other people.
I have gained much by their sacrifice?? That's pretty far fetched.We area a part of "mother nature", no?I am embarrassed by appearing to be a part of species who attack mother natureInsults are prohibited on this Forum.thinking that they may be able to grow in wiseness that way. I currently feel totally devalued by my apparent association with the dominant others of my species. And then being informed that I am in fact a beneficiary of the sacrifices of these animals is implying/suggesting that I caused this. You right wing innocent psycho guys are killing me, stop it!
I'm left wing - possibly the most left wing on the Forum.
I think I am a part of nature, but I am uncertain about everyone else. I am not sure I can call a robot a natural being even if it is built with natural products.
So, you think you are left wing? I have a friend in my animal protection activist group who told me she was alive because of animal tested products that restaured her health and felt that she was better alive than dead for the animals. So, she thinks she is an animal activist but that's delusional. I suspect that likewise whatever leftwing tendency that you may have have no basis in reality: you vigorously attack people like me who stand for the rights of less powerful and vulnerable individuals. That's very right wing and denying it would also be right wing because right wing people lie (like Trump) and the worse lies you tell are the ones about your self. Like my friend who thinks she is an animal rights activist, you may hang around and sincerely help left wingers but you are certainly not one of them, at least not in my opinion, given what you are arguing here. I would agree to say that perhaps the left welcomes you among their groups but that's not conclusive evidence that you are left wing.
- LuckyR
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Re:
Yeah a lot of talk about being "forced" to get vaccinated, yet I am not aware of a single individual worldwide who has been subjected to such a mythical situation.codyharper wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 12:11 pm The issue of vaccination is rather widespread nowadays. I have seen and even read a lot of articles and stuff related to it. Some of them are devoted to the ethical part. As for me, it's up to the person whether to get vaccinated or not. Some time ago I read one article at the source were some useful points were stated.
- Sculptor1
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Re: Ethical Vaccine Distribution
This comment has zero applicability.Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑October 31st, 2021, 9:55 pmYou know that I am not a pig? Where do you get your hindsight?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 26th, 2021, 7:18 amObfuscation.Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑October 25th, 2021, 5:38 pmWhere did you get that from? Many people consider themselves animals, no?
Put it this way . Ethics is principally for humans, not NON-humans.And yet many humans dis EXACTLY that.
I certainly would offer myself for testing in certain circumstances such as if a rabid bat bit me and the first anti rabies vaccine was being offered as an experimental treatment. But you are correct to say that I would not volunteer to be given deliberately a deadly virus to see if my experimental vaccine was effective against it followed shortly after with me being killed so I could be dissected to see if the vaccine did indeed help or not fight the disease in my lungs.
It's a pity that you rate pigs over your own species.It's only far fetched to a person who does not care about other people.
I have gained much by their sacrifice?? That's pretty far fetched.We area a part of "mother nature", no?I am embarrassed by appearing to be a part of species who attack mother natureInsults are prohibited on this Forum.thinking that they may be able to grow in wiseness that way. I currently feel totally devalued by my apparent association with the dominant others of my species. And then being informed that I am in fact a beneficiary of the sacrifices of these animals is implying/suggesting that I caused this. You right wing innocent psycho guys are killing me, stop it!
I'm left wing - possibly the most left wing on the Forum.
But if you were a pig, I'd roast you until your flesh was crackling.
Again not relevant to the discussion, except to unducate how highly you think of yourself which seems to be a key factor in your moral stance.
I think I am a part of nature, but I am uncertain about everyone else. I am not sure I can call a robot a natural being even if it is built with natural products.
I do not attack you or anyone like you. You are free to eat what you like, but you are NOT free to tell others to do the same.
So, you think you are left wing? I have a friend in my animal protection activist group who told me she was alive because of animal tested products that restaured her health and felt that she was better alive than dead for the animals. So, she thinks she is an animal activist but that's delusional. I suspect that likewise whatever leftwing tendency that you may have have no basis in reality: you vigorously attack people like me who stand for the rights of less powerful and vulnerable individuals.
I think you must be confused about what "left" means.
As I thought - you do not understand the meaning of the terms left and right. I'll show these comments to my friend who is a right wing vegetarian.That's very right wing and denying it would also be right wing because right wing people lie (like Trump) and the worse lies you tell are the ones about your self. Like my friend who thinks she is an animal rights activist, you may hang around and sincerely help left wingers but you are certainly not one of them, at least not in my opinion, given what you are arguing here. I would agree to say that perhaps the left welcomes you among their groups but that's not conclusive evidence that you are left wing.
Arnold Swarzenegger is more like you than me in that respect
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Re: Re:
To be fair, coercion is relatively strong or weak. When I was vaccinated as a student nurse I was very young and I and my peer group were in such awe of the authorities it did not occur to us to question vaccinations or similar when these were ordered. Coercion is much slighter towards the modern covid jab for the general public, and is usually a matter of not very efficient persuasionLuckyR wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 2:41 amYeah a lot of talk about being "forced" to get vaccinated, yet I am not aware of a single individual worldwide who has been subjected to such a mythical situation.codyharper wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 12:11 pm The issue of vaccination is rather widespread nowadays. I have seen and even read a lot of articles and stuff related to it. Some of them are devoted to the ethical part. As for me, it's up to the person whether to get vaccinated or not. Some time ago I read one article at the source were some useful points were stated.
- Sculptor1
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Re: Re:
Lucky is right to point this out.Belindi wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 1:41 pmTo be fair, coercion is relatively strong or weak. When I was vaccinated as a student nurse I was very young and I and my peer group were in such awe of the authorities it did not occur to us to question vaccinations or similar when these were ordered. Coercion is much slighter towards the modern covid jab for the general public, and is usually a matter of not very efficient persuasionLuckyR wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 2:41 amYeah a lot of talk about being "forced" to get vaccinated, yet I am not aware of a single individual worldwide who has been subjected to such a mythical situation.codyharper wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 12:11 pm The issue of vaccination is rather widespread nowadays. I have seen and even read a lot of articles and stuff related to it. Some of them are devoted to the ethical part. As for me, it's up to the person whether to get vaccinated or not. Some time ago I read one article at the source were some useful points were stated.
There seems to be a massive trope amongst many social media platforms including the 3 (so-called) Philosophy discussion Forums that I regularly visit, which is concerned a massive conspiriacy to force people to get vaccinated.
The slightest hint of any government insisting on vaccines or plans to restrict the activities of non vaccinated are met with the most hysterical objections.
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Re: Re:
It is misleading to conflate forcing with persuading or arguing for.Belindi wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 1:41 pmTo be fair, coercion is relatively strong or weak. When I was vaccinated as a student nurse I was very young and I and my peer group were in such awe of the authorities it did not occur to us to question vaccinations or similar when these were ordered. Coercion is much slighter towards the modern covid jab for the general public, and is usually a matter of not very efficient persuasionLuckyR wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 2:41 amYeah a lot of talk about being "forced" to get vaccinated, yet I am not aware of a single individual worldwide who has been subjected to such a mythical situation.codyharper wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 12:11 pm The issue of vaccination is rather widespread nowadays. I have seen and even read a lot of articles and stuff related to it. Some of them are devoted to the ethical part. As for me, it's up to the person whether to get vaccinated or not. Some time ago I read one article at the source were some useful points were stated.
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Re: Re:
I agree. And I think that anti vaxxers are coerced by certain agitators and media into believing what they do.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2021, 12:42 amIt is misleading to conflate forcing with persuading or arguing for.Belindi wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 1:41 pmTo be fair, coercion is relatively strong or weak. When I was vaccinated as a student nurse I was very young and I and my peer group were in such awe of the authorities it did not occur to us to question vaccinations or similar when these were ordered. Coercion is much slighter towards the modern covid jab for the general public, and is usually a matter of not very efficient persuasionLuckyR wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 2:41 amYeah a lot of talk about being "forced" to get vaccinated, yet I am not aware of a single individual worldwide who has been subjected to such a mythical situation.codyharper wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 12:11 pm The issue of vaccination is rather widespread nowadays. I have seen and even read a lot of articles and stuff related to it. Some of them are devoted to the ethical part. As for me, it's up to the person whether to get vaccinated or not. Some time ago I read one article at the source were some useful points were stated.
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Re: Re:
I agree(and I agree also with Sculptor). And I think that anti vaxxers are coerced by certain agitators and media into believing what they do.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2021, 12:42 amIt is misleading to conflate forcing with persuading or arguing for.Belindi wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 1:41 pmTo be fair, coercion is relatively strong or weak. When I was vaccinated as a student nurse I was very young and I and my peer group were in such awe of the authorities it did not occur to us to question vaccinations or similar when these were ordered. Coercion is much slighter towards the modern covid jab for the general public, and is usually a matter of not very efficient persuasionLuckyR wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 2:41 amYeah a lot of talk about being "forced" to get vaccinated, yet I am not aware of a single individual worldwide who has been subjected to such a mythical situation.codyharper wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 12:11 pm The issue of vaccination is rather widespread nowadays. I have seen and even read a lot of articles and stuff related to it. Some of them are devoted to the ethical part. As for me, it's up to the person whether to get vaccinated or not. Some time ago I read one article at the source were some useful points were stated.
- Empiricist-Bruno
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Re: Re:
I think this is a case of controling the narration. The media does it and the people repeat it. In my experience, the best way to brand those of us who reject the COVID-19 vaccines is that they are anti bullying. I think it's a farce to suggest that they are somehow bullied into their views. As you know, I am pro-vaccine but anti-animal cruelty and so I get to be branded as an anti-vaccine person when I am not one bit that way. But as I see the effort being put into bullying people into taking the vaccine, I feel as if I have a second reason now to reject the vaccine as it is being associated with coercion. Bullying is a problem in society and the root causes need to be addressed and if you are openly critical of those of us who reject the vaccine, then, in my opinion, I think you are in sinc with the bullies of our species, and I am critical of that.Belindi wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2021, 7:19 amI agree(and I agree also with Sculptor). And I think that anti vaxxers are coerced by certain agitators and media into believing what they do.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2021, 12:42 amIt is misleading to conflate forcing with persuading or arguing for.Belindi wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 1:41 pmTo be fair, coercion is relatively strong or weak. When I was vaccinated as a student nurse I was very young and I and my peer group were in such awe of the authorities it did not occur to us to question vaccinations or similar when these were ordered. Coercion is much slighter towards the modern covid jab for the general public, and is usually a matter of not very efficient persuasion
- LuckyR
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Re: Re:
At the current time bullying is a pejorative term used by many who seek to hide behind victim status. What is your definition of bullying?Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2021, 10:05 pmI think this is a case of controling the narration. The media does it and the people repeat it. In my experience, the best way to brand those of us who reject the COVID-19 vaccines is that they are anti bullying. I think it's a farce to suggest that they are somehow bullied into their views. As you know, I am pro-vaccine but anti-animal cruelty and so I get to be branded as an anti-vaccine person when I am not one bit that way. But as I see the effort being put into bullying people into taking the vaccine, I feel as if I have a second reason now to reject the vaccine as it is being associated with coercion. Bullying is a problem in society and the root causes need to be addressed and if you are openly critical of those of us who reject the vaccine, then, in my opinion, I think you are in sinc with the bullies of our species, and I am critical of that.Belindi wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2021, 7:19 amI agree(and I agree also with Sculptor). And I think that anti vaxxers are coerced by certain agitators and media into believing what they do.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2021, 12:42 amIt is misleading to conflate forcing with persuading or arguing for.Belindi wrote: ↑November 1st, 2021, 1:41 pm
To be fair, coercion is relatively strong or weak. When I was vaccinated as a student nurse I was very young and I and my peer group were in such awe of the authorities it did not occur to us to question vaccinations or similar when these were ordered. Coercion is much slighter towards the modern covid jab for the general public, and is usually a matter of not very efficient persuasion
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Re: Re:
I don’t think it’s anti-bullying sentiment that leads to most instances of anti-vaccism. Rather it is fear, a powerful human motivator, whether it be fear of an unfamiliar substance injected into the body, fear of pain inflicted by the injection, fear of loss of autonomy, fear of injury at the hands of a bully or some other fear all together.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 4th, 2021, 2:00 amAt the current time bullying is a pejorative term used by many who seek to hide behind victim status. What is your definition of bullying?Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2021, 10:05 pmI think this is a case of controling the narration. The media does it and the people repeat it. In my experience, the best way to brand those of us who reject the COVID-19 vaccines is that they are anti bullying. I think it's a farce to suggest that they are somehow bullied into their views. As you know, I am pro-vaccine but anti-animal cruelty and so I get to be branded as an anti-vaccine person when I am not one bit that way. But as I see the effort being put into bullying people into taking the vaccine, I feel as if I have a second reason now to reject the vaccine as it is being associated with coercion. Bullying is a problem in society and the root causes need to be addressed and if you are openly critical of those of us who reject the vaccine, then, in my opinion, I think you are in sinc with the bullies of our species, and I am critical of that.
- LuckyR
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Re: Re:
IMO most antivaxxers are old school contrarians who naturally bristle when they feel they are being told what to do. The sort who walk on the grass right next to the Don't Walk on the Grass sign.AverageBozo wrote: ↑November 4th, 2021, 10:35 amI don’t think it’s anti-bullying sentiment that leads to most instances of anti-vaccism. Rather it is fear, a powerful human motivator, whether it be fear of an unfamiliar substance injected into the body, fear of pain inflicted by the injection, fear of loss of autonomy, fear of injury at the hands of a bully or some other fear all together.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 4th, 2021, 2:00 amAt the current time bullying is a pejorative term used by many who seek to hide behind victim status. What is your definition of bullying?Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2021, 10:05 pmI think this is a case of controling the narration. The media does it and the people repeat it. In my experience, the best way to brand those of us who reject the COVID-19 vaccines is that they are anti bullying. I think it's a farce to suggest that they are somehow bullied into their views. As you know, I am pro-vaccine but anti-animal cruelty and so I get to be branded as an anti-vaccine person when I am not one bit that way. But as I see the effort being put into bullying people into taking the vaccine, I feel as if I have a second reason now to reject the vaccine as it is being associated with coercion. Bullying is a problem in society and the root causes need to be addressed and if you are openly critical of those of us who reject the vaccine, then, in my opinion, I think you are in sinc with the bullies of our species, and I am critical of that.
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Re: Re:
Some people define bullying differently, indeed. Here is a recent concept that's not in line with what you seem to think is but as you say, it all depends. Being the but end of jokes is bullying for instance.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 4th, 2021, 2:00 amAt the current time bullying is a pejorative term used by many who seek to hide behind victim status. What is your definition of bullying?Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2021, 10:05 pmI think this is a case of controling the narration. The media does it and the people repeat it. In my experience, the best way to brand those of us who reject the COVID-19 vaccines is that they are anti bullying. I think it's a farce to suggest that they are somehow bullied into their views. As you know, I am pro-vaccine but anti-animal cruelty and so I get to be branded as an anti-vaccine person when I am not one bit that way. But as I see the effort being put into bullying people into taking the vaccine, I feel as if I have a second reason now to reject the vaccine as it is being associated with coercion. Bullying is a problem in society and the root causes need to be addressed and if you are openly critical of those of us who reject the vaccine, then, in my opinion, I think you are in sinc with the bullies of our species, and I am critical of that.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59015486
There is more subtle bullying going on too.
The joke you tell about anti-vaxxers, "IMO most antivaxxers are old school contrarians who naturally bristle when they feel they are being told what to do. The sort who walk on the grass right next to the Don't Walk on the Grass sign" is also bullying in my opinion.
I would also consider Average Bozo's remarks as a form of bullying, "I don’t think it’s anti-bullying sentiment that leads to most instances of anti-vaccism. Rather it is fear, a powerful human motivator, whether it be fear of an unfamiliar substance injected into the body, fear of pain inflicted by the injection, fear of loss of autonomy, fear of injury at the hands of a bully or some other fear all together."
Suggesting that antivaxxers are eccentrics has for obvious purpose to marginalize them and their views. It's also a great way to deny their existence. They bring to the table issues you do not wish to confront/address and the only way you can deal with them is claiming that they are something that they aren't, and that the way for them to no longer be what you wrongly claim that they are is by helping them get over their understandable fears. I think it goes beyond being condescending because as you deny their issues, you get to suppress them and although I understand this is often not done very thoughtfully by most people as they repeat points found everywhere in mass media, I feel certain that those mass media directors know exactly what's implied in what they decide to print, and that's wrong. It's dodging the discussion that they know they can't win.
I think that even sitting in a cafeteria after getting your vaccination certificate and ID checked out is a form of bulllying if non vaccinated people are around. It's bullying by provocation aimed at restricting privilege to those who believe in the state's divisive approach to fighting the pandemic.
To effectively fight a pandemic, you need leadership and the development of intelligence to fight the disease. An intelligent approach would be to target zero cases, and have a world wide approach to fighting this scourge. And you won't get that with bullies leading the world's political systems. Remember that lots of very rich people have become a lot richer under the pandemic and so expect that not everyone want it to go away.
In other words, ethical vaccine delivery of the COVID vaccine is simply not possible. It will necessarily be delivered in an unethical way as it is a product of morally bankrupt minds.
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Re: Re:
Several things.Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑November 6th, 2021, 12:45 pmSome people define bullying differently, indeed. Here is a recent concept that's not in line with what you seem to think is but as you say, it all depends. Being the but end of jokes is bullying for instance.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 4th, 2021, 2:00 amAt the current time bullying is a pejorative term used by many who seek to hide behind victim status. What is your definition of bullying?Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2021, 10:05 pmI think this is a case of controling the narration. The media does it and the people repeat it. In my experience, the best way to brand those of us who reject the COVID-19 vaccines is that they are anti bullying. I think it's a farce to suggest that they are somehow bullied into their views. As you know, I am pro-vaccine but anti-animal cruelty and so I get to be branded as an anti-vaccine person when I am not one bit that way. But as I see the effort being put into bullying people into taking the vaccine, I feel as if I have a second reason now to reject the vaccine as it is being associated with coercion. Bullying is a problem in society and the root causes need to be addressed and if you are openly critical of those of us who reject the vaccine, then, in my opinion, I think you are in sinc with the bullies of our species, and I am critical of that.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59015486
There is more subtle bullying going on too.
The joke you tell about anti-vaxxers, "IMO most antivaxxers are old school contrarians who naturally bristle when they feel they are being told what to do. The sort who walk on the grass right next to the Don't Walk on the Grass sign" is also bullying in my opinion.
I would also consider Average Bozo's remarks as a form of bullying, "I don’t think it’s anti-bullying sentiment that leads to most instances of anti-vaccism. Rather it is fear, a powerful human motivator, whether it be fear of an unfamiliar substance injected into the body, fear of pain inflicted by the injection, fear of loss of autonomy, fear of injury at the hands of a bully or some other fear all together."
Suggesting that antivaxxers are eccentrics has for obvious purpose to marginalize them and their views. It's also a great way to deny their existence. They bring to the table issues you do not wish to confront/address and the only way you can deal with them is claiming that they are something that they aren't, and that the way for them to no longer be what you wrongly claim that they are is by helping them get over their understandable fears. I think it goes beyond being condescending because as you deny their issues, you get to suppress them and although I understand this is often not done very thoughtfully by most people as they repeat points found everywhere in mass media, I feel certain that those mass media directors know exactly what's implied in what they decide to print, and that's wrong. It's dodging the discussion that they know they can't win.
I think that even sitting in a cafeteria after getting your vaccination certificate and ID checked out is a form of bulllying if non vaccinated people are around. It's bullying by provocation aimed at restricting privilege to those who believe in the state's divisive approach to fighting the pandemic.
To effectively fight a pandemic, you need leadership and the development of intelligence to fight the disease. An intelligent approach would be to target zero cases, and have a world wide approach to fighting this scourge. And you won't get that with bullies leading the world's political systems. Remember that lots of very rich people have become a lot richer under the pandemic and so expect that not everyone want it to go away.
In other words, ethical vaccine delivery of the COVID vaccine is simply not possible. It will necessarily be delivered in an unethical way as it is a product of morally bankrupt minds.
First your link was to a court case that supported the jokester, that is: said that the jokes weren't bullying.
Second, you are free to water down your definition of bullying to anything that upsets someone, but be aware that it puts bullying into a category of behavior that warrants almost no notice nor reaction.
As to your last paragraph, the actual delivery of the vaccine by definition meets the local standard and thus is ethical in that context. You may find it and it's logic underpinnings immoral, but many, if not most find it perfectly moral. Agree to disagree.
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