A Simple Surgery

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JackDaydream
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by JackDaydream »

@Ecurb

Aside from issues of sexual abuse, on the subject of the state having a role in medical interventions for children, one of the most controversial areas is that of decisions made about puberty blockers. In England, gender dysphoric individuals approaching adolescence were able to make this choice as a legal entitlement. The choice was allowed as being negotiable between doctors and children, rather than decided by parents, although it would probably be extremely difficult for the child to follow such a pathway if the parents were opposed. However, one individual, Kiera Bell, who went down this route and other forms of treatment to transition from female to male and regretted this later, won a case to state that as an adolescent they did not have the capacity to consent, due to the psychological turbulence of adolescence.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 29th, 2021, 10:14 am If the state can intervene between a child and its parents, then the state is the parent, and must assume full parental responsibility - and credit for whatever comes out right. But they also assume the responsibility for what goes wrong. That's what being a parent is all about. The buck stops with you.
Ecurb wrote: October 29th, 2021, 10:36 am Oh, come on! Are you suggesting that the state should never intervene in cases of child abuse?
Not at all. I'm simply saying that if the state takes over parental responsibility ... it takes over parental responsibility. A simple, and I think factual, observation.
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JackDaydream
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by JackDaydream »

@Pattern-chaser

It is also possible to say that the state also reverts back to being a 'parent' again when people are seen as unable to make decisions due to cognitive decline in many instances when people become older adults, especially in dementia. This also may apply in the cases of psychiatric illness, mostly in psychotic illnesses. Here, the state may act as a 'parent' but with regard to the views of family members. This has profound implications for medical interventions and even decisions about surgery for physical illnesses.
Ecurb
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by Ecurb »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 29th, 2021, 10:57 am

Not at all. I'm simply saying that if the state takes over parental responsibility ... it takes over parental responsibility. A simple, and I think factual, observation.
IN the case of the Followers of Christ Church, I'm not sure how this would work. If the State can mandate medical care for mionor children, does that mean it must take over all other parental responsibilities as well? Some of the parents seem (from the documentary) to be good, loving parents except for their whacky (and even cruel) attitudes toward medical care.
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chewybrian
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by chewybrian »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 29th, 2021, 10:14 am
chewybrian wrote: October 29th, 2021, 9:49 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 27th, 2021, 10:49 am isn't it the case that, in your country,
  • Any citizen has the right to refuse any form of medical treatment?
  • Any parent has the right and the duty to decide such things on behalf of their children?
In pretty much all cases, an adult can refuse any and all medical treatment. This even extends to when they lack the capacity to say yes or no, if they properly document their wishes and have them recorded while they are still competent to give consent. Unfortunately, they have many of the same freedoms when it comes to the care of their children. The state faces a high bar to show that they can intervene on behalf of the child:
The medical community is in agreement about the appropriate course of treatment for the child
The expected outcome of that treatment is a relatively normal life with a reasonably good quality of life
The child would die without the treatment
The parent is refusing to grant consent for the treatment
https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/insur ... -to-a.html
If the state can intervene between a child and its parents, then the state is the parent, and must assume full parental responsibility - and credit for whatever comes out right. But they also assume the responsibility for what goes wrong. That's what being a parent is all about. The buck stops with you.
Hmmm... I want to respect the parents' rights within reasonable limits. And you are correct that those rights are honored here in the U.S. to an extreme not widely matched in other countries. But, do you mean to argue with those conditions I quoted in our statutes? It seems like refusing medical treatment under those conditions amounts to abuse or neglect:

Doctors 1,2+3: "Your child has a simple but serious infection that requires penicillin. She will die without it but almost certainly recover fully with it."

Parents: "No, thanks. We believe the spirit of Dennis Hopper will rise up and protect her from harm."

Government: ???
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by Pattern-chaser »

chewybrian wrote: October 29th, 2021, 1:14 pm But, do you mean to argue with those conditions I quoted in our statutes?
No, no, not at all. I only noted the existence of these laws, rules and statutes, and deduced that, if they exist (as they do), certain consequences seem to follow. I'm not even stating my personal position on these matters, only noting the existence of the laws that govern them, and the apparent consequences of those laws.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Ecurb wrote: October 29th, 2021, 12:46 pm If the State can mandate medical care for minor children, does that mean it must take over all other parental responsibilities as well?
I don't know. Can we split parental responsibility, or is it an indivisible thing that is the province either of the parent or the state?
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Ecurb
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by Ecurb »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 30th, 2021, 7:45 am
I don't know. Can we split parental responsibility, or is it an indivisible thing that is the province either of the parent or the state?
I think that in Oregon convicting parents whose children died has led other parents to allow medical care (although some cult members moved to Idaho). I'm sure some people think that finding children new homes away from whacky religious fanatics would be a good thng, but it would doubtless also be traumatic for both the children and the parents. Obviously, if the parents are in prison, the children become wards of the State (or the state allows them to be wards of some relatives). But the threat of sanctions may be effective.
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Mounce574
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Re: A Simple Surgery

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Coming from experience: Child Protective Services does not care about your rights. They do not answer to any higher authority. If your child is in the hospital and requires treatment of any type and you tell the doctor no, a social worker will step in and take your child away from you. Children removed from their homes does not always result in criminal charges and many times the children are medically treated through psychiatric medicines. Then they are rehomed and permanency planning starts with adoption within less than 12 months if the parent's rights are terminated. If the "service plan" is not completed before 12 months, the child is placed for adoption and the parental rights are terminated. Another tactic used is leaving the child with the parent but the state has custody rights. I've seen both, experienced one: and mine came from someone who threatened to kill me. That person got 20 years probation for shooting with intent to kill. I had to spend a year going to parenting classes, having my home inspected by a worker whenever she felt like it(if I wasn't home then it was a violation and I could lose my child), and going to court and having to stand next to the person who committed the crime against me. Just me. My children were not present but I was still told that I failed to protect children. Which literally makes no sense. I was able to finish the service plan and they didn't terminate his rights as well.

As for an adult, if you are psychologically able to make a decision about your health then you should have that directive followed. This is similar to a DNR(do not resuscitate) that people have.
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Mounce574
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by Mounce574 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 29th, 2021, 10:14 am
chewybrian wrote: October 29th, 2021, 9:49 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 27th, 2021, 10:49 am isn't it the case that, in your country,
  • Any citizen has the right to refuse any form of medical treatment?
  • Any parent has the right and the duty to decide such things on behalf of their children?
In pretty much all cases, an adult can refuse any and all medical treatment. This even extends to when they lack the capacity to say yes or no, if they properly document their wishes and have them recorded while they are still competent to give consent. Unfortunately, they have many of the same freedoms when it comes to the care of their children. The state faces a high bar to show that they can intervene on behalf of the child:
The medical community is in agreement about the appropriate course of treatment for the child
The expected outcome of that treatment is a relatively normal life with a reasonably good quality of life
The child would die without the treatment
The parent is refusing to grant consent for the treatment
https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/insur ... -to-a.html
If the state can intervene between a child and its parents, then the state is the parent, and must assume full parental responsibility - and credit for whatever comes out right. But they also assume the responsibility for what goes wrong. That's what being a parent is all about. The buck stops with you.

Wallis v Spencer, 202 F.3d 1126 (9th Cir.2000 "...the Constitution assures parents that, in the absence of parental consent, physical examinations of their child may not be undertaken for investigative purposes at the behest of state officials...the state is required to notify parents and to obtain judicial approval before children are subjected to investigatory physical examinations." And: "The right to family association includes the right of parents to make important medical decisions for their children and of children to have those decisions made by their parents rather than the state ...it is in the interest of both parents and children that parents have ultimate authority to make medical decisions for their children..."

Santosky et al. V. Kramer, Commissioner, Ulster County Department of Social Services, et al. 455 U.S. 745; 71 L. Ed. 2d 599; 50 U.S.L.W. 4333; 102 S. “The fundamental liberty interest of natural parents in the care, custody, and management of their child is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment, and does not evaporate simply because they have not been model parents or have lost temporary custody of their child to the State”

Both of these are what guarantees a parent the rights to make their decision regarding their children. These were both upheld by the Supreme Court. I know in Oklahoma, children are automatically eligible for unlimited healthcare for free.
Sadly, state intervention often doesn't assist the children medically when they are removed from their home.
"Facts don't care about your feelings." Ben Shapiro
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." NF from Motto
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 29th, 2021, 10:14 am
chewybrian wrote: October 29th, 2021, 9:49 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 27th, 2021, 10:49 am isn't it the case that, in your country,
  • Any citizen has the right to refuse any form of medical treatment?
  • Any parent has the right and the duty to decide such things on behalf of their children?
In pretty much all cases, an adult can refuse any and all medical treatment. This even extends to when they lack the capacity to say yes or no, if they properly document their wishes and have them recorded while they are still competent to give consent. Unfortunately, they have many of the same freedoms when it comes to the care of their children. The state faces a high bar to show that they can intervene on behalf of the child:
The medical community is in agreement about the appropriate course of treatment for the child
The expected outcome of that treatment is a relatively normal life with a reasonably good quality of life
The child would die without the treatment
The parent is refusing to grant consent for the treatment
https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/insur ... -to-a.html
If the state can intervene between a child and its parents, then the state is the parent, and must assume full parental responsibility - and credit for whatever comes out right. But they also assume the responsibility for what goes wrong. That's what being a parent is all about. The buck stops with you.
Mounce574 wrote: July 10th, 2023, 11:26 pm Wallis v Spencer, 202 F.3d 1126 (9th Cir.2000 "...the Constitution assures parents that, in the absence of parental consent, physical examinations of their child may not be undertaken for investigative purposes at the behest of state officials...the state is required to notify parents and to obtain judicial approval before children are subjected to investigatory physical examinations." And: "The right to family association includes the right of parents to make important medical decisions for their children and of children to have those decisions made by their parents rather than the state ...it is in the interest of both parents and children that parents have ultimate authority to make medical decisions for their children..."

Santosky et al. V. Kramer, Commissioner, Ulster County Department of Social Services, et al. 455 U.S. 745; 71 L. Ed. 2d 599; 50 U.S.L.W. 4333; 102 S. “The fundamental liberty interest of natural parents in the care, custody, and management of their child is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment, and does not evaporate simply because they have not been model parents or have lost temporary custody of their child to the State”

Both of these are what guarantees a parent the rights to make their decision regarding their children. These were both upheld by the Supreme Court. I know in Oklahoma, children are automatically eligible for unlimited healthcare for free.
Sadly, state intervention often doesn't assist the children medically when they are removed from their home.
I'm sure what you say is right, but that's just in America. Other countries have different rules, although all their laws are intended to have pretty much the same purpose, and the same end results. Differences that might appear quite subtle can sometimes have a significant and different effect from other apparently-similar systems. So one example is good, and better than no examples, but America is not the world, and other examples would surely illuminate different outcomes?
Pattern-chaser

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Mounce574
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Re: A Simple Surgery

Post by Mounce574 »

I agree. In other countries, especially ones that are more restrictive with their laws, the outcome would be a lot worse. There are some countries where medical care isn't available and I doubt that the state or government does anything about it. The loss of the child would be one less mouth to feed.
"Facts don't care about your feelings." Ben Shapiro
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." NF from Motto
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