Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

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WanderingGaze22
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Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

Absolute morality in textbook definition is "an ethical view that all actions are naturally right or wrong". The most common example is commiting a crime, no matter what, is wrong. I have been told I am a person of absolutes; I get right to the point and I'm either too general or get too literal, especially with instructions. So concepts such as "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" are often conflicted for me.

We find common ground though if I state that most laws are guidelines than required procedures. Sure, some laws are ultimately unnecessary and some will always be there for our safety. The question here is not how do we determine which laws we can do without, but how do we use our knowledge and experience of law to our benefit? How can we be able to use this in places like court or law enforcement? Where is the line between being too reckless and being too rigid? While we are on the subject, factor in deadline usage and all the pros and cons that go with it.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by LuckyR »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:07 am Absolute morality in textbook definition is "an ethical view that all actions are naturally right or wrong". The most common example is commiting a crime, no matter what, is wrong. I have been told I am a person of absolutes; I get right to the point and I'm either too general or get too literal, especially with instructions. So concepts such as "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" are often conflicted for me.

We find common ground though if I state that most laws are guidelines than required procedures. Sure, some laws are ultimately unnecessary and some will always be there for our safety. The question here is not how do we determine which laws we can do without, but how do we use our knowledge and experience of law to our benefit? How can we be able to use this in places like court or law enforcement? Where is the line between being too reckless and being too rigid? While we are on the subject, factor in deadline usage and all the pros and cons that go with it.
Yes, there are individuals who only see black or white and can not appreciate the gray areas in between. They commonly have little trouble following laws/rules, or at least appreciate them. Absolute morality exists in their minds and they subscibe to rigid ethical standards. Having said that, it bears mentioning that those folks are a statistical minority and that most can see gray areas as well as laws that should be broken as well as exceptions to most rules/laws.
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stevie
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by stevie »

Is there such a thing as absolute morality?
No.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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chewybrian
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by chewybrian »

LuckyR wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:19 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:07 am Absolute morality in textbook definition is "an ethical view that all actions are naturally right or wrong". The most common example is commiting a crime, no matter what, is wrong. I have been told I am a person of absolutes; I get right to the point and I'm either too general or get too literal, especially with instructions. So concepts such as "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" are often conflicted for me.

We find common ground though if I state that most laws are guidelines than required procedures. Sure, some laws are ultimately unnecessary and some will always be there for our safety. The question here is not how do we determine which laws we can do without, but how do we use our knowledge and experience of law to our benefit? How can we be able to use this in places like court or law enforcement? Where is the line between being too reckless and being too rigid? While we are on the subject, factor in deadline usage and all the pros and cons that go with it.
Yes, there are individuals who only see black or white and can not appreciate the gray areas in between. They commonly have little trouble following laws/rules, or at least appreciate them. Absolute morality exists in their minds and they subscibe to rigid ethical standards. Having said that, it bears mentioning that those folks are a statistical minority and that most can see gray areas as well as laws that should be broken as well as exceptions to most rules/laws.
Black and white thinking is a recognized cognitive distortion that can be at the root of a lot of problems with the way people see and interact with the world. Looking at the toxic mixture of religion and politics that rules the minds of so many people, I'm not sure that "statistical minority" accurately describes the spread of the problem, though. I guess 49% is a minority, if that is what you meant.
The Problem With Black-and-White Thinking

Dichotomous, polarized thinking is maladaptive for several reasons. This type of cognition results in a distorted picture of any reality that is not, in fact, dichotomous—and human realities rarely are. Black-and-white thinking results in oversimplified understandings of both other people and the self.

This cognitive style prevents people from being aware of the full range of possibilities available to them. People feel they must make either/or choices when there are actually many options in between.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... %20between.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

chewybrian wrote: February 21st, 2022, 8:20 am Black and white thinking is a recognized cognitive distortion...
Binary thinking has long been a bugbear of mine. In his book "Science, Music and Mathematics - The Deepest Connections", Michael Edgeworth McIntyre describes it as the 'dichotomous instinct'. He thinks it originates in our distant past, when fight or flight, live or die, decisions had to be made instantly. There is no time, if you see a potential predator, to wonder whether it means you harm, you just get out of its way. Binary thinking thus became embedded in the human psyche, or so he believes. I see no reason to disagree.

But McIntyre also comments "Luckily, however, dichotomisation isn't all there is. We don't have to see the world this way. It's a trap we needn't fall into. Outside life-threatening emergencies ... we do have the ability to stop and think. We do have the ability to see that while some issues are dichotomous many others are not. We do have the ability to see - oh shock horror - that there might be merit in different viewpoints." Again, I see no reason to disagree.

But this "recognized cognitive distortion" continues to dominate human thought and discourse? 🤔🤔🤔
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

chewybrian wrote: February 21st, 2022, 8:20 am Black and white thinking is a recognized cognitive distortion...
Many times, in philosophy forums, I have said "I'm not convinced that X is true", and it has been read as an assertion that "X is false". I must admit I find such responses really annoying, more, perhaps, than they ought to be; maybe that says something about me? 🤔 Binary thinking is often (always???) a barrier to serious thought of all kinds.
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WanderingGaze22
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

LuckyR wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:19 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:07 am Absolute morality in textbook definition is "an ethical view that all actions are naturally right or wrong". The most common example is commiting a crime, no matter what, is wrong. I have been told I am a person of absolutes; I get right to the point and I'm either too general or get too literal, especially with instructions. So concepts such as "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" are often conflicted for me.

We find common ground though if I state that most laws are guidelines than required procedures. Sure, some laws are ultimately unnecessary and some will always be there for our safety. The question here is not how do we determine which laws we can do without, but how do we use our knowledge and experience of law to our benefit? How can we be able to use this in places like court or law enforcement? Where is the line between being too reckless and being too rigid? While we are on the subject, factor in deadline usage and all the pros and cons that go with it.
Yes, there are individuals who only see black or white and can not appreciate the gray areas in between. They commonly have little trouble following laws/rules, or at least appreciate them. Absolute morality exists in their minds and they subscibe to rigid ethical standards. Having said that, it bears mentioning that those folks are a statistical minority and that most can see gray areas as well as laws that should be broken as well as exceptions to most rules/laws.
Interesting I will have to think about all that.
WanderingGaze22
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

chewybrian wrote: February 21st, 2022, 8:20 am
Black and white thinking is a recognized cognitive distortion that can be at the root of a lot of problems with the way people see and interact with the world.
Interesting, so basically, keeping an open mind about people's opinions and gaining an understanding helps immensely right?
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chewybrian
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by chewybrian »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 4:22 am
chewybrian wrote: February 21st, 2022, 8:20 am
Black and white thinking is a recognized cognitive distortion that can be at the root of a lot of problems with the way people see and interact with the world.
Interesting, so basically, keeping an open mind about people's opinions and gaining an understanding helps immensely right?
Yes. It is a mark of conceit to assume that you know right from wrong independent of your experiences, abilities, desires and fears. You are not really objective and fair despite the effort you *might* put into being so. If you forget how little you know and how many prejudices you harbor, you may presume that you know how others "should" believe or behave. You will then see injustice around every corner when the world does not conform to your ideas. Conflict, anger, anxiety and depression are the natural results of this conceit. Most of that goes away with proper humility and respect for others as unique subjects.
When any person harms you, or speaks badly of you, remember that he acts or speaks from a supposition of its being his duty. Now, it is not possible that he should follow what appears right to you, but what appears so to himself. Therefore, if he judges from a wrong appearance, he is the person hurt, since he too is the person deceived. For if anyone should suppose a true proposition to be false, the proposition is not hurt, but he who is deceived about it. Setting out, then, from these principles, you will meekly bear a person who reviles you, for you will say upon every occasion, "It seemed so to him.", Epictetus, "The Enchiridion"
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Ecurb »

For children less than 3 years old the absolute morality is, "Don't bite."
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LuckyR
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by LuckyR »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 4:19 am
LuckyR wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:19 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:07 am Absolute morality in textbook definition is "an ethical view that all actions are naturally right or wrong". The most common example is commiting a crime, no matter what, is wrong. I have been told I am a person of absolutes; I get right to the point and I'm either too general or get too literal, especially with instructions. So concepts such as "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" are often conflicted for me.

We find common ground though if I state that most laws are guidelines than required procedures. Sure, some laws are ultimately unnecessary and some will always be there for our safety. The question here is not how do we determine which laws we can do without, but how do we use our knowledge and experience of law to our benefit? How can we be able to use this in places like court or law enforcement? Where is the line between being too reckless and being too rigid? While we are on the subject, factor in deadline usage and all the pros and cons that go with it.
Yes, there are individuals who only see black or white and can not appreciate the gray areas in between. They commonly have little trouble following laws/rules, or at least appreciate them. Absolute morality exists in their minds and they subscibe to rigid ethical standards. Having said that, it bears mentioning that those folks are a statistical minority and that most can see gray areas as well as laws that should be broken as well as exceptions to most rules/laws.
Interesting I will have to think about all that.
Rules apply remedies that worked for past events and assume they will equally apply in the future. Unfortunately, as we all know, individual future situations are unpredictable, thus it is unreasonable to expect rules to not deserve exceptions moving forward.
"As usual... it depends."
WanderingGaze22
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

chewybrian wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 6:12 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 4:22 am
chewybrian wrote: February 21st, 2022, 8:20 am
Black and white thinking is a recognized cognitive distortion that can be at the root of a lot of problems with the way people see and interact with the world.
Interesting, so basically, keeping an open mind about people's opinions and gaining an understanding helps immensely right?
Yes. It is a mark of conceit to assume that you know right from wrong independent of your experiences, abilities, desires and fears. You are not really objective and fair despite the effort you *might* put into being so. If you forget how little you know and how many prejudices you harbor, you may presume that you know how others "should" believe or behave. You will then see injustice around every corner when the world does not conform to your ideas. Conflict, anger, anxiety and depression are the natural results of this conceit. Most of that goes away with proper humility and respect for others as unique subjects.
When any person harms you, or speaks badly of you, remember that he acts or speaks from a supposition of its being his duty. Now, it is not possible that he should follow what appears right to you, but what appears so to himself. Therefore, if he judges from a wrong appearance, he is the person hurt, since he too is the person deceived. For if anyone should suppose a true proposition to be false, the proposition is not hurt, but he who is deceived about it. Setting out, then, from these principles, you will meekly bear a person who reviles you, for you will say upon every occasion, "It seemed so to him.", Epictetus, "The Enchiridion"
That was certainly a mouthful but still, it means so much when someone does recognize they are wrong and more importantly, acknowledges it to the person being wronged just as much.
WanderingGaze22
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

LuckyR wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 1:29 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 4:19 am
LuckyR wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:19 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:07 am Absolute morality in textbook definition is "an ethical view that all actions are naturally right or wrong". The most common example is commiting a crime, no matter what, is wrong. I have been told I am a person of absolutes; I get right to the point and I'm either too general or get too literal, especially with instructions. So concepts such as "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" are often conflicted for me.

We find common ground though if I state that most laws are guidelines than required procedures. Sure, some laws are ultimately unnecessary and some will always be there for our safety. The question here is not how do we determine which laws we can do without, but how do we use our knowledge and experience of law to our benefit? How can we be able to use this in places like court or law enforcement? Where is the line between being too reckless and being too rigid? While we are on the subject, factor in deadline usage and all the pros and cons that go with it.
Yes, there are individuals who only see black or white and can not appreciate the gray areas in between. They commonly have little trouble following laws/rules, or at least appreciate them. Absolute morality exists in their minds and they subscibe to rigid ethical standards. Having said that, it bears mentioning that those folks are a statistical minority and that most can see gray areas as well as laws that should be broken as well as exceptions to most rules/laws.
Interesting I will have to think about all that.
Rules apply remedies that worked for past events and assume they will equally apply in the future. Unfortunately, as we all know, individual future situations are unpredictable, thus it is unreasonable to expect rules to not deserve exceptions moving forward.
I am certainly guilty of not wanting to improve on something especially when it seems like it does not need to be, so I did not think of it that way. All in all, learning from your mistakes is easier said than done as well as all we can do as a species.
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Hypatia »

I think here we have to distinguish between two levels of discussion, to understand what is even meant with the question: Do you mean that you have an absolute, clear, and irrefutable knowledge of moral righteousness, or do you believe that any action is in principle either right or wrong, although you might never be able to know?

The first theory requires the answers given thus far; for the second, the question rather is, whether or not moral statements have a truth value, reality, or if they are a mere decision and even one, that can be internally contradictory. This clearly can only be examined in a discussion of the idea of morality, and how moral systems are different from epistemological ones, but it does seem clear to me that one cannot simply copy the mathematical reasoning over to ethics and expect it to just work out, even though countless people do exactly that (or, similarly reasonless, negate it, and call it "emotive"; a term that, as already Schopenhauer pointed out, has only a negative definition, and therefore generally no justification of use).
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Leontiskos »

Hypatia wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 5:26 am I think here we have to distinguish between two levels of discussion, to understand what is even meant with the question: Do you mean that you have an absolute, clear, and irrefutable knowledge of moral righteousness, or do you believe that any action is in principle either right or wrong, although you might never be able to know?

The first theory requires the answers given thus far; for the second, the question rather is, whether or not moral statements have a truth value, reality, or if they are a mere decision and even one, that can be internally contradictory. This clearly can only be examined in a discussion of the idea of morality, and how moral systems are different from epistemological ones, but it does seem clear to me that one cannot simply copy the mathematical reasoning over to ethics and expect it to just work out, even though countless people do exactly that (or, similarly reasonless, negate it, and call it "emotive"; a term that, as already Schopenhauer pointed out, has only a negative definition, and therefore generally no justification of use).
So what are some of the ways that moral systems are crucially different from epistemological ones, and how would those differences lead a mathematical reasoner to reconsider the plausibility of absolute morality?
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