Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

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Hypatia
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Hypatia »

Leontiskos wrote: February 25th, 2022, 2:58 am
Hypatia wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 5:26 am I think here we have to distinguish between two levels of discussion, to understand what is even meant with the question: Do you mean that you have an absolute, clear, and irrefutable knowledge of moral righteousness, or do you believe that any action is in principle either right or wrong, although you might never be able to know?

The first theory requires the answers given thus far; for the second, the question rather is, whether or not moral statements have a truth value, reality, or if they are a mere decision and even one, that can be internally contradictory. This clearly can only be examined in a discussion of the idea of morality, and how moral systems are different from epistemological ones, but it does seem clear to me that one cannot simply copy the mathematical reasoning over to ethics and expect it to just work out, even though countless people do exactly that (or, similarly reasonless, negate it, and call it "emotive"; a term that, as already Schopenhauer pointed out, has only a negative definition, and therefore generally no justification of use).
So what are some of the ways that moral systems are crucially different from epistemological ones, and how would those differences lead a mathematical reasoner to reconsider the plausibility of absolute morality?
Well, this is already dependent on what you consider to be part of a moral system: the actual decision to do something, or, after it's decided, a way to justify or condemn, to evaluate it. If a moral system fundamentally is about the ability to make decisions, than to say something is the right thing to do is the same as to say that I decided to do it (whether or not my will comes to pass), and in this way, it is more than an understatement that I merely consider; it's an act, in the very theory, a speech act of commandment to the self if you will. On the other hand, if I consider a moral theory to merely be an post hoc consideration of value, it in a way becomes an aesthetic theory, a theory of value; that doesn't mean it's unimportant in any way, but that it's inconsequential to decisions, but merely offers reasons, upon which I still have to decide (the same way I also consider factual information or taste in my decision, but don't consider them equal or necessary or even determinative to it). This marks the fundamental difference between morality proper and what I would call the theory of moral values, or ethical aesthetics.

I do think that there is no absolute theory of ethical values, because value, aesthetics, are fundamentally about ambivalence, dissonance. But a moral decision can be absolute. I can be unsure about the justification and value theory of the sanctity of life - and indeed I think most, if not all, justifications of suffering, and condemnations of death are false and not argued to the extent that they needed to be to be sound and logically necessary - but that does not change that my decision, not to kill myself, isn't absolute. I may not have the perfect framework of reasoning, but within that framework, epistemological doubts and aesthetic ambivalence does not lead straight to suicide, or the consideration of it. I think this example is illustrative, and shows, that even without absolute knowledge absolute decisions are possible, and therefore an idea of a theory that could structure and understand them (absolute morality, morality proper).
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Leontiskos
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Leontiskos »

Hypatia wrote: February 25th, 2022, 5:08 am
Leontiskos wrote: February 25th, 2022, 2:58 amSo what are some of the ways that moral systems are crucially different from epistemological ones, and how would those differences lead a mathematical reasoner to reconsider the plausibility of absolute morality?
Well, this is already dependent on what you consider to be part of a moral system: the actual decision to do something, or, after it's decided, a way to justify or condemn, to evaluate it. If a moral system fundamentally is about the ability to make decisions, than to say something is the right thing to do is the same as to say that I decided to do it (whether or not my will comes to pass), and in this way, it is more than an understatement that I merely consider; it's an act, in the very theory, a speech act of commandment to the self if you will. On the other hand, if I consider a moral theory to merely be an post hoc consideration of value, it in a way becomes an aesthetic theory, a theory of value; that doesn't mean it's unimportant in any way, but that it's inconsequential to decisions, but merely offers reasons, upon which I still have to decide (the same way I also consider factual information or taste in my decision, but don't consider them equal or necessary or even determinative to it). This marks the fundamental difference between morality proper and what I would call the theory of moral values, or ethical aesthetics.

I do think that there is no absolute theory of ethical values, because value, aesthetics, are fundamentally about ambivalence, dissonance. But a moral decision can be absolute. I can be unsure about the justification and value theory of the sanctity of life - and indeed I think most, if not all, justifications of suffering, and condemnations of death are false and not argued to the extent that they needed to be to be sound and logically necessary - but that does not change that my decision, not to kill myself, isn't absolute. I may not have the perfect framework of reasoning, but within that framework, epistemological doubts and aesthetic ambivalence does not lead straight to suicide, or the consideration of it. I think this example is illustrative, and shows, that even without absolute knowledge absolute decisions are possible, and therefore an idea of a theory that could structure and understand them (absolute morality, morality proper).
I agree that deciding to do something involves the implicit claim that it is the right thing to do, and thus is a moral act. I don't know if you are also saying that the consideration of a moral decision is also itself a moral act, but I am not opposed to that idea. I think that your distinction between morality proper and the theory of moral values is legitimate.

If I understand your argument about absolute morality properly, you are saying that the fact that one makes an absolute decision to not commit suicide means that there must be at least some notion of a moral theory that could justify that absolute decision. Given the nature of the theory of moral values, it is not capable of supporting absolute decisions. Therefore the justificatory theory must pertain to "morality proper." Nevertheless, a person can make absolute decisions in the presence of doubts and in the absence of absolute knowledge, and this means that the moral conclusion can be fully affirmed without the sort of demonstrative reasoning that would be required in the non-moral epistemological sphere.

If that is accurate then I have some questions. If one can make absolute decisions without absolute justifications, then why would absolute decisions signify "an idea of a theory that could structure and understand them"? It seems like you are assuming that the person who forms an absolute decision must possess implicit or unconscious reasons, which are valid, proportionate to the conclusion, and which could be explicated in time in the form of a theory. Indeed, I grant that a psychological idea of this sort would attend absolute decisions, but I am left wondering why it would need to go beyond that, hold water, and be true. Is the idea that if the decision is truly absolute, then there must be a theory that can justify it?

My other question is this: What is an absolute decision, and how does it differ from a mundane decision?

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Sy Borg
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Sy Borg »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:07 am Absolute morality in textbook definition is "an ethical view that all actions are naturally right or wrong".
Right or wrong to whom? There's the rub.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:07 am We find common ground though if I state that most laws are guidelines than required procedures. Sure, some laws are ultimately unnecessary and some will always be there for our safety. The question here is not how do we determine which laws we can do without, but how do we use our knowledge and experience of law to our benefit? How can we be able to use this in places like court or law enforcement? Where is the line between being too reckless and being too rigid? While we are on the subject, factor in deadline usage and all the pros and cons that go with it.
These are oft argued about subjects. Ultimately those when those deluded enough to be certain of their rightness work to control the legislature, so nations develop constitutions and other legal mechanisms designed to make absolute control more difficult. It was deemed that the polity should not be controlled by any particular ideology* - because the benefits of authoritarianism's cohesive voice and quick decision-making are outweighed by potential abuses.

Still, on occasion small operators cut through the noise. Charm, emotion and/or money - things not much associated with philosophy and philosophers - seem to be the key to influencing the general populace. This may explain today's intensely non-philosophical state of play.
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by heracleitos »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: February 21st, 2022, 4:07 am Absolute morality in textbook definition is "an ethical view that all actions are naturally right or wrong".
If we define the predicate formula isMoral(%s), with %s the description of a particular behavior, then it is obvious that this predicate formula can be designed in an arbitrary large different number of ways.

However, we can also assume that only a limited number of such predicate formulas are sufficiently compatible with our biological preprogramming.

Still, I reject the idea that there would be exactly one valid predicate formula.

I base my assessment on the fact that prophet Muhammad (SAW) saw it perfectly fit to adjudicate legal cases by applying Jewish law. He did not insist on Islamic law:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: Abul Qasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought.
Therefore, according to the prophet of Islam, it is perfectly possible to construct an appropriate and functioning isMoral (%s) predicate formula from the Jewish original scripture, just like you can construct it from the Quranic text.

My intuition says that the prophet was right about that.

Hence, I reject the idea that there would exist an absolute morality resulting in the construction of exactly one, single legitimate isMoral (%s) predicate formula.
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

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I would say yes. But I would instantly have to qualify and say that human beings in general are not very good at adhering to it, and must settle for a much lesser standard of morality. But if we are talking about God, or a perfect being, then yes, absolute morality exists and is binding.

The world as I see it is a mess, and we have to deal with this mess on its own terms. Only God or a perfect being can rightfully "condescend" and get down to our level, while at the same time not getting dirtied by it. For the rest of us unwashed masses, we can only do so much. We are all implicated in so much confusion, destruction, and corruption that the idea of an absolute morality to many of us must seem like a fairy tale. But I would say that is simply due to how far removed we are from that standard given the state the world is in.
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

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WindowtotheWorld wrote: April 23rd, 2022, 8:29 pm I would say yes. But I would instantly have to qualify and say that human beings in general are not very good at adhering to it, and must settle for a much lesser standard of morality. But if we are talking about God, or a perfect being, then yes, absolute morality exists and is binding.

The world as I see it is a mess, and we have to deal with this mess on its own terms. Only God or a perfect being can rightfully "condescend" and get down to our level, while at the same time not getting dirtied by it. For the rest of us unwashed masses, we can only do so much. We are all implicated in so much confusion, destruction, and corruption that the idea of an absolute morality to many of us must seem like a fairy tale. But I would say that is simply due to how far removed we are from that standard given the state the world is in.
So in your opinion can humans know this absolute morality, even if we cannot practice it?
"As usual... it depends."
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WindowtotheWorld
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by WindowtotheWorld »

LuckyR wrote: April 24th, 2022, 3:54 am
WindowtotheWorld wrote: April 23rd, 2022, 8:29 pm I would say yes. But I would instantly have to qualify and say that human beings in general are not very good at adhering to it, and must settle for a much lesser standard of morality. But if we are talking about God, or a perfect being, then yes, absolute morality exists and is binding.

The world as I see it is a mess, and we have to deal with this mess on its own terms. Only God or a perfect being can rightfully "condescend" and get down to our level, while at the same time not getting dirtied by it. For the rest of us unwashed masses, we can only do so much. We are all implicated in so much confusion, destruction, and corruption that the idea of an absolute morality to many of us must seem like a fairy tale. But I would say that is simply due to how far removed we are from that standard given the state the world is in.
So in your opinion can humans know this absolute morality, even if we cannot practice it?
I would say we can know the essence of this morality, that it is actually absolute while, at the same time, eluding our ken. Just like in math we can grasp that 5+5 can only equal 10 and that this is an absolute rule. That said, only a handful of us can grasp much higher mathematics - although the principles underlying math is the same, just more elaborated.

Just as what is requisite for higher mathematics is intelligence, what is requisite for higher morality is an ability we likewise don't have.
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Leontiskos »

Hypatia wrote: February 25th, 2022, 5:08 am Well, this is already dependent on what you consider to be part of a moral system: the actual decision to do something, or, after it's decided, a way to justify or condemn, to evaluate it...
By the way, are you by chance related to Tar-Meneldur?
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by d3r31nz1g3 »

Image

If evil is an element in the world, then certainly absolute morality is the case.

And indeed, evil is incarnate in the form of organic life. Like a squid--a literal tentacle monster.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Sy Borg »

d3r31nz1g3 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:48 pm If evil is an element in the world, then certainly absolute morality is the case.

And indeed, evil is incarnate in the form of organic life. Like a squid--a literal tentacle monster.
Geez, if you were violently dragged from your home and ripped up you would look like a zombie monster. The little ones can be quite cute:


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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by owlkinhoot »

No, but reasonable morality exists. Because let's be reasonable, chaos in society is not conductive to the most important Cycle of Life upon which this civilization is built upon and exists and continues to ponder.
But if we could live afterlife and get reborn into this world, maybe...maybe...we could fix upon this moral-reality and say that absolute morality exists.
So that we have two options: Let's say whether reality is absolute depends on how you perceive the life cycle works. Both reasonable morality and absolute morality are fine.
So do you believe in rebirth of some sort?
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by d3r31nz1g3 »

Sy Borg wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:34 am
d3r31nz1g3 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:48 pm If evil is an element in the world, then certainly absolute morality is the case.

And indeed, evil is incarnate in the form of organic life. Like a squid--a literal tentacle monster.
Geez, if you were violently dragged from your home and ripped up you would look like a zombie monster. The little ones can be quite cute:


If I was violently dragged from my home and ripped up, that would be objectively evil. That's why I'd look like a zombie monster.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by Sy Borg »

d3r31nz1g3 wrote: December 4th, 2022, 5:19 pm
Sy Borg wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:34 am
d3r31nz1g3 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:48 pm If evil is an element in the world, then certainly absolute morality is the case.

And indeed, evil is incarnate in the form of organic life. Like a squid--a literal tentacle monster.
Geez, if you were violently dragged from your home and ripped up you would look like a zombie monster. The little ones can be quite cute:


If I was violently dragged from my home and ripped up, that would be objectively evil. That's why I'd look like a zombie monster.
That's what happened to the unfortunate squid pictured in your post.

I do find it gratifying that, without this thin veneer of attractive skin, we would all look like zombie monsters. That analogy holds in terms of morality too, as per the archetypal "nine meals from anarchy" aphorism. If, say, one has children in danger of starvation, morals become exceedingly rubbery. All bets are off.
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by d3r31nz1g3 »

I'm an adorable little skippy toe with my skin intact.

If I am harmed, I start to turn ugly.

Must be evil.
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Re: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?

Post by ahaahoy »

Ecurb wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 12:23 pm For children less than 3 years old the absolute morality is, "Don't bite."
or every toy that is within arm reach is "it's mine" and will cry if not given...

with which adult will teach first lesson on morality that "it's not yours"...
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