Should people have a right to privacy?

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GE Morton
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: June 5th, 2022, 8:14 pm Oh, come on, GE. One doesn't "have liberty as a quality, characteristic, or attribute." Liberty is granted one as an obligation on the part of other people. If the other people don't grant it, one doesn't have it. So I continue to disagree.
Er, no. Liberty is not "granted" by other people. You would have it if they did not exist. Their only role in it is to respect it or violate it.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

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Good_Egg wrote: June 5th, 2022, 7:50 pm
Sy Borg wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 8:10 pm
Good_Egg wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 7:13 pm
Sy Borg wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 4:53 pm Consider "useful" to a homophobe employer with a closeted staff member. Outing that staff member would be useful to the employer, but most secular people would consider it an injustice.
I'm not seeing any clear principle here, just a reflection of how much sympathy you feel for each of the two parties involved.
Talking about sympathy is a red herring.

The discussion is about ethics and the practical limitations of law. You can't expect such a discussion to solve the problems of the world but to examine the issues.
OK. I'd suggest that there is a minor virtue of minding one's own business. And that outing anyone to anyone else is thus an unvirtuous act, unless there is some particular circumstance which makes it one's own business to do so.

But that being a matter of virtue rather than a matter of rights, that's maybe not so simple to reflect in law.
This is not just about minding one's business, but about publicly outing innocuous people, humiliating them in public, risking their vocation and relationships. Minding one's own business means one does not have the knowledge to impinge on others' lives, so it comes down to having knowledge and allowing other people the freedom to disclose personal information at the circumstance of their choosing.

In the workplace, official sanctions are sometimes possible, depending on workplace policy. In society at large we are, to some extent, at the mercy of others who would use their personal information against us.
Ecurb
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: June 5th, 2022, 8:29 pm
Ecurb wrote: June 5th, 2022, 8:14 pm Oh, come on, GE. One doesn't "have liberty as a quality, characteristic, or attribute." Liberty is granted one as an obligation on the part of other people. If the other people don't grant it, one doesn't have it. So I continue to disagree.
Er, no. Liberty is not "granted" by other people. You would have it if they did not exist. Their only role in it is to respect it or violate it.
The right to liberty is granted by other people. What else can it mean? How much liberty do you have if you are buried by an earthquake? How free you to walk where you will if you get some disease that cripples you? If other people didn't exist, no rights would exist. You might be free to move about, you might be trapped in a mine cave-in .

"LIberty" does not suggest that we are free from disease or disaster. It suggests we are free from oppression by other people (like the horribly onerous obligation to pay thieving taxes to support Medicare). I'm disappointed in you, GE. You're usually smarter than this.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

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Ecurb wrote: June 5th, 2022, 9:35 pm... like the horribly onerous obligation to pay thieving taxes to support Medicare ...
Off topic, but US citizens spend far more per capita on healthcare than jurisdictions that provide Medicare. The Medicare levy is modest and the benefits to society at large are significant.
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LuckyR
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by LuckyR »

GE Morton wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 1:00 pm
LuckyR wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 4:22 am
So you are against the concept of insurance? Everyone should just pay their way? The insurance industry (and their investors) is happy you're not in charge.
How did you draw that conclusion from anything I said? But see response to Ecurb, forthcoming, below.
Ah so. You're totally fine with the concept of following laws such as the funding (through taxation) and distribution of Medicare, welfare etc (even though you might personally disagree with them), as long as folks don't confuse their description as legally vs morally based, right?
"As usual... it depends."
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

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GE Morton wrote: June 5th, 2022, 8:29 pm Er, no. Liberty is not "granted" by other people. You would have it if they did not exist. Their only role in it is to respect it or violate it.
The "Liberty" you refer to can only exist because everyone else carries out their role to respect it, and not violate it.
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GE Morton
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: June 5th, 2022, 9:35 pm
GE Morton wrote: June 5th, 2022, 8:29 pm
Er, no. Liberty is not "granted" by other people. You would have it if they did not exist. Their only role in it is to respect it or violate it.
The right to liberty is granted by other people. What else can it mean?
Yikes, you're having a very hard time with this. No, rights are not "granted" by anyone to anyone, except in cases of transfer --- e.g., if I sell you my car, then I grant you the right to it; I convey it to you. But that right didn't originate in any "grant." And I've told you several times what having a right means --- it means that you acquired the thing to which you are claiming the right without inflicting loss or injury on anyone else. If Crusoe alone on his island plucks an apple from a tree, by that act alone he acquires a right to it. No other people have any role in that fact (and can't, since by hypothesis there are no other people). The right comes into existence with that act. How many times do I have to answer that question?
How much liberty do you have if you are buried by an earthquake? How free you to walk where you will if you get some disease that cripples you?
Oh, quite right. I would have little, or none. Mother nature is not a moral agent and thus not bound by moral constraints, such as rights. She can violate them with impunity, and does so regularly.
If other people didn't exist, no rights would exist.
Well, now you're repeating yourself.

As I said before, the liberal concept of natural and common rights has been a formidable impediment to the designs of totalitarians of all stripes; hence they are determined to re-define it, dismiss it as a "oppressive tool of the capitalist class" (or "white supremicists" or "European chauvinism") or as an aspect of the "false reality of individualism" or to just ignore it. But the history of that concept is conclusive and its moral significance obvious.
GE Morton
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 6th, 2022, 6:46 am
GE Morton wrote: June 5th, 2022, 8:29 pm Er, no. Liberty is not "granted" by other people. You would have it if they did not exist. Their only role in it is to respect it or violate it.
The "Liberty" you refer to can only exist because everyone else carries out their role to respect it, and not violate it.
Oh, that's right. But it must have existed before the violation, or there would have been nothing to violate.
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

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GE Morton wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:36 pm And I've told you several times what having a right means --- it means that you acquired the thing to which you are claiming the right without inflicting loss or injury on anyone else.
By what right - on what authority - did you "acquire" this thing?
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GE Morton
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by GE Morton »

GE Morton wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:38 pm
Oh, that's right. But it must have existed before the violation, or there would have been nothing to violate.
To be more accurate, your statement should read, "The "Liberty" you refer to can only continue to exist because everyone else carries out their role to respect it, and not violate it."

That would be true.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GE Morton wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:38 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 6th, 2022, 6:46 am
GE Morton wrote: June 5th, 2022, 8:29 pm Er, no. Liberty is not "granted" by other people. You would have it if they did not exist. Their only role in it is to respect it or violate it.
The "Liberty" you refer to can only exist because everyone else carries out their role to respect it, and not violate it.
Oh, that's right. But it must have existed before the violation, or there would have been nothing to violate.
Alright then. The "Liberty" you refer to, as you understand it, exists only because other people grant it to you. If the people don't grant it to you, you cannot have Liberty.

Better?
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GE Morton wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:41 pm "The "Liberty" you refer to can only continue to exist because everyone else carries out their role to respect it, and not violate it."
Never mind continuing to exist, this 'Liberty' can only start existing if and when people grant it to you.
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GE Morton
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:40 pm
GE Morton wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:36 pm And I've told you several times what having a right means --- it means that you acquired the thing to which you are claiming the right without inflicting loss or injury on anyone else.
By what right - on what authority - did you "acquire" this thing?
None. Why do you assume some "authority" is needed? You are your own "authority."

Is that question a relic of some religious assumption or doctrine?
GE Morton
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:43 pm
GE Morton wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:38 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 6th, 2022, 6:46 am
GE Morton wrote: June 5th, 2022, 8:29 pm Er, no. Liberty is not "granted" by other people. You would have it if they did not exist. Their only role in it is to respect it or violate it.
The "Liberty" you refer to can only exist because everyone else carries out their role to respect it, and not violate it.
Oh, that's right. But it must have existed before the violation, or there would have been nothing to violate.
Alright then. The "Liberty" you refer to, as you understand it, exists only because other people grant it to you. If the people don't grant it to you, you cannot have Liberty.

Better?
Well, no, PC. If someone refrains from stealing my car, he does not thereby "grant" it to me. Your car, your house, even your life and body, were not "granted" to you by everyone who refrains from taking them from you. You're misusing the word "grant."
GE Morton
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Re: Should people have a right to privacy?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:44 pm
GE Morton wrote: June 6th, 2022, 12:41 pm "The "Liberty" you refer to can only continue to exist because everyone else carries out their role to respect it, and not violate it."
Never mind continuing to exist, this 'Liberty' can only start existing if and when people grant it to you.
*Sigh*. Does Crusoe alone on his island have liberty? Who "granted" it to him?
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