Virtue ethics vs subjectivism

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Virtue ethics vs subjectivism

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: June 7th, 2022, 8:13 am Notice that deception vs truthfulness is only one axis. It is thus too small of a goal to declare "lies are evil and should be avoided". A skilled orator can convince an audience that A is better than B, while the transcript of his coversation points out several problems with A and various benefits of B. The information already exists, separate from the speaker and the listener, the speaker has the HUGE advantage of packaging the information in his own particular way to (potentially) change the understanding of the information, without technically changing the information itself.

The entire marketing, sales and advertising industries (among others) are built on this reality.
Yes, deception vs. truth is just one axis, but perhaps the most significant one? Your skilled orator is lying. He is telling parts of the truth in a way that he knows will mislead some of his audience into thinking that A is better than B, and some of them will purchase A when they might've benefitted more from owning B. We know he's doing this, quite intentionally, but we can't prove it; he has deniability. But he is lying: seeking to mislead his audience with negative intent.

If there were not laws that forbid him from saying, simply, that A is better than B, he would do that too. All advertisers seek to lie as much as existing laws permit. This 'reality' is one of the main reasons why I oppose lying, as I do here. Our world is filled with liars, and there is no good reason that I can see why we should do this (aside from personal gain within a world defined by American Predatory Capitalism, and I wouldn't describe this as a 'good' reason), or allow it.
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Re: Virtue ethics vs subjectivism

Post by Ecurb »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 8th, 2022, 12:34 pm
LuckyR wrote: June 7th, 2022, 8:13 am

The entire marketing, sales and advertising industries (among others) are built on this reality.
All advertisers seek to lie as much as existing laws permit. This 'reality' is one of the main reasons why I oppose lying, as I do here. Our world is filled with liars, and there is no good reason that I can see why we should do this (aside from personal gain within a world defined by American Predatory Capitalism, and I wouldn't describe this as a 'good' reason), or allow it.

As a former ad copywriter, I disagree. Not all advertisers lie. The essence of advertising is the old Newspaper Classified Ad: "For Sale: One 7-year-old aluminum ladder. 20' tall, $60."

Lying would just be a waste of time. If the potential buyer came to get the ladder and it was 12' tall and wood, you would have wasted his time and yours.

I don't think all advertisers lie, nor do I think that (in general) lying is an effective form of advertising.

As an aside, my most hated ad these days is for Mercedes Benz, which always ends with the solemnly entoned tag line, "Mercedes Benz -- The best, or nothing." I find it hard to believe that corporate Mercedes Poobahs really want to discourage purchases of the $80,000 Mercedes, because the $200k model is superior. In addition the implication that anyone who can't afford a mansion should remain homeless, and that anyone who can't afford steak and lobster should starve is obnoxious. It astounds me that Mercedes executives are so ignorant of basic language as to allow such an ad, but perhaps they all speak only German.
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Re: Virtue ethics vs subjectivism

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By the way, having worked in advertising I think I know why Mercedes has produced such stupid ad copy. They are self-obsessed. They mean, "We will work tirelessly to produce the best cars (in their price range), or nothing at all." I ran into this all the time. One of my bosses, after I left and he could get away with it, constantly touted the benefits of "our products". Of course the products only remained "ours" if they weren't purchased by the person who meant to use them. That can hardly have been the goal of the company. Also, the consumer doesn't care who makes the item, he cares about its benefits to him. Another common mistake is to use the word "products". Companies "produce" products, but consumers want to buy record albums or TVs or pain killers. The stupidity and egoism of corporate America astounds me. (Of course it may also be true that consumers are stupid, and these ads actually work. However, measuring the success of ads is notoriously difficult.)
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Re: Virtue ethics vs subjectivism

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Ecurb wrote: June 8th, 2022, 9:00 pm As a former ad copywriter, I disagree. Not all advertisers lie. The essence of advertising is the old Newspaper Classified Ad: "For Sale: One 7-year-old aluminum ladder. 20' tall, $60."

Lying would just be a waste of time. If the potential buyer came to get the ladder and it was 12' tall and wood, you would have wasted his time and yours.

I don't think all advertisers lie, nor do I think that (in general) lying is an effective form of advertising.
I see what you're getting at. But then I think of my wife's shampoo, which claims, on the bottle, that it is "up to 100% effective" at getting rid of dandruff. Strictly speaking, there is no untruth in those words. But a shampoo that was/is 0.001% effective could still be 'truthfully' described as "up to 100% effective". And the point here is not that the claim is meaningless, which it is, but that it appears to be a much bigger claim than it really is, and some customers might be confused by it, or even convinced of something that is definitely not true. And let's not beat about the bush: this confusing impression is deliberately put there with the intention to mislead.

I call that a 'lie', even though there is no actual untruth stated. And I can't 'prove' that the claim is "deliberate", for they can simply claim that it was inadvertent, and not important anyway. 🤔🤔🤔 It relies on the modern concept of deniability, which I find despicable and dishonest.
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Re: Virtue ethics vs subjectivism

Post by LuckyR »

Gentlemen, gentlemen, I think we are describing the same thing, just with different wording. First, I don't know what shampoo we're talking about, but I'll bet what "up to 100% effective" means is they did three studies, one showed 75% reduction, amother 85% reduction and a third 100% reduction. They can't/shouldn't say either 75 or 100% effective. They probably should say 75 to 100%, when studied, but to my ear, up to 100% kind of gives an accurate understanding.

As to Mercedes-Benz, that line is actually a quote (in the original German), not a slogan an adman made up. You're right it is describing the attitude of the maker, it's not advice for the purchaser.

In speaking with advertising folks they said that usually they are trying to create differentiation between products that are basically the same and that their job is actually easier than average when there are actual, real differences between products (that they can talk about).
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Re: Virtue ethics vs subjectivism

Post by Ecurb »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 9th, 2022, 11:37 am

I see what you're getting at. But then I think of my wife's shampoo, which claims, on the bottle, that it is "up to 100% effective" at getting rid of dandruff. Strictly speaking, there is no untruth in those words. But a shampoo that was/is 0.001% effective could still be 'truthfully' described as "up to 100% effective". And the point here is not that the claim is meaningless, which it is, but that it appears to be a much bigger claim than it really is, and some customers might be confused by it, or even convinced of something that is definitely not true. And let's not beat about the bush: this confusing impression is deliberately put there with the intention to mislead.

I call that a 'lie', even though there is no actual untruth stated. And I can't 'prove' that the claim is "deliberate", for they can simply claim that it was inadvertent, and not important anyway. 🤔🤔🤔 It relies on the modern concept of deniability, which I find despicable and dishonest.
According to FTC guidelines (here in the U.S.) ads must be "truthful and non-misleading". Same with labels acc. to FDA (I worked in the Food and Drug industry). Of course enforcement is spotty.

FDA cracked down on food labels in the 1990s. It used to be common to see ice cream labelled "95% Fat free". This was truthful, but misleading, because most ice cream is 5% butter fat (whole mile is 3%). So the implication that the product was "low fat" was misleading, and FDA correctly cracked down on it.

To Lucky: lots of ads describe the attitude of the maker, like the Mercedes ads. It demonstrates the egoism of corporate personnel. I had to argue constantly that ads should concentrate on the benefits to the consumer.
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Re: Virtue ethics vs subjectivism

Post by LuckyR »

Ecurb wrote: June 9th, 2022, 5:44 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 9th, 2022, 11:37 am

I see what you're getting at. But then I think of my wife's shampoo, which claims, on the bottle, that it is "up to 100% effective" at getting rid of dandruff. Strictly speaking, there is no untruth in those words. But a shampoo that was/is 0.001% effective could still be 'truthfully' described as "up to 100% effective". And the point here is not that the claim is meaningless, which it is, but that it appears to be a much bigger claim than it really is, and some customers might be confused by it, or even convinced of something that is definitely not true. And let's not beat about the bush: this confusing impression is deliberately put there with the intention to mislead.

I call that a 'lie', even though there is no actual untruth stated. And I can't 'prove' that the claim is "deliberate", for they can simply claim that it was inadvertent, and not important anyway. 🤔🤔🤔 It relies on the modern concept of deniability, which I find despicable and dishonest.
According to FTC guidelines (here in the U.S.) ads must be "truthful and non-misleading". Same with labels acc. to FDA (I worked in the Food and Drug industry). Of course enforcement is spotty.

FDA cracked down on food labels in the 1990s. It used to be common to see ice cream labelled "95% Fat free". This was truthful, but misleading, because most ice cream is 5% butter fat (whole mile is 3%). So the implication that the product was "low fat" was misleading, and FDA correctly cracked down on it.

To Lucky: lots of ads describe the attitude of the maker, like the Mercedes ads. It demonstrates the egoism of corporate personnel. I had to argue constantly that ads should concentrate on the benefits to the consumer.
Works for soap flakes but luxury brands don't sell products, they sell caché.
"As usual... it depends."
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