Animal Rights (Chile)

[LuckyR]

The horse is just one example; all animals are our slaves. But we don't work "with" horses; they work for us. If they don't/won't, we hurt them until they do, and if they still won't, we kill them and feed them to other slave-carnivores, or to humans, in some countries.

Horse love to work and they love human companionship. Many horse keepers, like dog owners sacrifice mcuh for love of their animals.
Your view point is very bitter.

Both of those claims contain kernels of truth, yet overall appear contradictory. How can they be reconciled?

Domesticated animals are slaves, wild animals are either free or incarcerated.

[Sy Borg]

the horse might show are based in a context of inescapable slavery and captivity.

I invite you to spend a day in my home and ask you who is the slave in the relationship with these darlings.

image_2022-08-28_150011551.png

Until then you can boil your head in your own bitterness.

Heads like that have a hypnotic power that compels vulnerable humans to place complex lipid, protein and carbohydrate compounds into their mouthparts.

Yes, I struggle to help them keep slim, because if I had no control they would ned up like Jabba the Hut.
The one on the left (Boffy)* the Labrador, we have had for 8 years, adopted from an animal rescue. She is now nine.
This year we were looking at the website from the rescue centre where she came from and saw Rusty, the Golden Retriever (left). His owner got cancer and was too frail to look after him. We mad a visit and he looked at me. I was immediately compelled to adopt him too. He is already 11 years old, but we thought he deserved a nice end of life home. He's actually fitter than when we adopted him and is probably going to last a long time. But he's better with us than in a cage.

Old dogs are the best! Not many beings in the living world are mellower than old dogs. This is something not well understood by the non-dog public, whose lack of familiarity or respect results in them lumping all dogs together in much the same ways as old Confederate racists lumped together all black people. It's weird to see grown adults shrink in fear at our small, wizened, gentle, waddling old thing, although most people smile and go "Awww".

[Sy Borg]

The horse is just one example; all animals are our slaves. But we don't work "with" horses; they work for us. If they don't/won't, we hurt them until they do, and if they still won't, we kill them and feed them to other slave-carnivores, or to humans, in some countries.

Horse love to work and they love human companionship. Many horse keepers, like dog owners sacrifice mcuh for love of their animals.
Your view point is very bitter.

Both of those claims contain kernels of truth, yet overall appear contradictory. How can they be reconciled?

Domesticated animals are slaves, wild animals are either free or incarcerated.

Not really, more like the Stolen Generation. How many slaves and masters were best friends? How many masters go out for long walks with their slaves, going wherever their slaves like best?

[GE Morton]

Domesticated animals are slaves, wild animals are either free or incarcerated.

Not my cats. They have a cat door, and come and go as they please. They do what they want when they want.

[LuckyR]

Domesticated animals are slaves, wild animals are either free or incarcerated.

Not my cats. They have a cat door, and come and go as they please. They do what they want when they want.

Really? So they want to get sterilized? They like injections?

[Sy Borg]

Do boys want to be circumcised and do girls want FGM? Do children want to be thrown in a room with a group of semi-civilised strangers to be "educated"? Do adults want to slog on at the office for decades?

There are reasons why Benetar recommended antinatalism.

[Sculptor1]

I invite you to spend a day in my home and ask you who is the slave in the relationship with these darlings.

image_2022-08-28_150011551.png

Until then you can boil your head in your own bitterness.

Heads like that have a hypnotic power that compels vulnerable humans to place complex lipid, protein and carbohydrate compounds into their mouthparts.

Yes, I struggle to help them keep slim, because if I had no control they would ned up like Jabba the Hut.
The one on the left (Boffy)* the Labrador, we have had for 8 years, adopted from an animal rescue. She is now nine.
This year we were looking at the website from the rescue centre where she came from and saw Rusty, the Golden Retriever (left). His owner got cancer and was too frail to look after him. We mad a visit and he looked at me. I was immediately compelled to adopt him too. He is already 11 years old, but we thought he deserved a nice end of life home. He's actually fitter than when we adopted him and is probably going to last a long time. But he's better with us than in a cage.

Old dogs are the best! Not many beings in the living world are mellower than old dogs. This is something not well understood by the non-dog public, whose lack of familiarity or respect results in them lumping all dogs together in much the same ways as old Confederate racists lumped together all black people. It's weird to see grown adults shrink in fear at our small, wizened, gentle, waddling old thing, although most people smile and go "Awww".

Are you suggesting that a certain person who has equated dog ownership to slavery is comparable to a Confederate racist?
Anyway Rusty has some idiosyncrasies from his old life. When I walk him out, and we get to a place where the grass is mowed he habitually rolls on his back with his legs in the air and then slides along. I think he is collecting scent. He can get a bit high in that respect. He is also a major expert in collecting cleavers stems burs, seedpods and thistle head on his coat. Until I had Rusty I did not appreciate just how "clever" nature is at spreading her seed pods. He also has the habit deciding to stop dead on the path and refusing to move. I think the previous owners used to treat him too much - that's why he was so overweight.
But Rusty had not yet learned how to control his slaves to give treats all the time!!!

[Sculptor1]

The horse is just one example; all animals are our slaves. But we don't work "with" horses; they work for us. If they don't/won't, we hurt them until they do, and if they still won't, we kill them and feed them to other slave-carnivores, or to humans, in some countries.

Horse love to work and they love human companionship. Many horse keepers, like dog owners sacrifice mcuh for love of their animals.
Your view point is very bitter.

Both of those claims contain kernels of truth, yet overall appear contradictory. How can they be reconciled?

Domesticated animals are slaves, wild animals are either free or incarcerated.

Like I said to Pattern. Spend a day in my home and ask who is the slave. My dogs are members of the family and get more than any wild animal could get. They have personalities and can express them.
Compared to wild animals, my dogs live longer, eat better, are cleaner, groomed, have their medical needs met, have warm shelter and are free from predation.
They do no work and so by definition are not slaves.

[Sy Borg]

Heads like that have a hypnotic power that compels vulnerable humans to place complex lipid, protein and carbohydrate compounds into their mouthparts.

Yes, I struggle to help them keep slim, because if I had no control they would ned up like Jabba the Hut.
The one on the left (Boffy)* the Labrador, we have had for 8 years, adopted from an animal rescue. She is now nine.
This year we were looking at the website from the rescue centre where she came from and saw Rusty, the Golden Retriever (left). His owner got cancer and was too frail to look after him. We mad a visit and he looked at me. I was immediately compelled to adopt him too. He is already 11 years old, but we thought he deserved a nice end of life home. He's actually fitter than when we adopted him and is probably going to last a long time. But he's better with us than in a cage.

Old dogs are the best! Not many beings in the living world are mellower than old dogs. This is something not well understood by the non-dog public, whose lack of familiarity or respect results in them lumping all dogs together in much the same ways as old Confederate racists lumped together all black people. It's weird to see grown adults shrink in fear at our small, wizened, gentle, waddling old thing, although most people smile and go "Awww".

Are you suggesting that a certain person who has equated dog ownership to slavery is comparable to a Confederate racist? :lol:
Anyway Rusty has some idiosyncrasies from his old life. When I walk him out, and we get to a place where the grass is mowed he habitually rolls on his back with his legs in the air and then slides along. I think he is collecting scent. He can get a bit high in that respect. He is also a major expert in collecting cleavers stems burs, seedpods and thistle head on his coat. Until I had Rusty I did not appreciate just how "clever" nature is at spreading her seed pods. He also has the habit deciding to stop dead on the path and refusing to move. I think the previous owners used to treat him too much - that's why he was so overweight.
But Rusty had not yet learned how to control his slaves to give treats all the time!!!

Noooo. Rather, it's people who don't like dogs, who scowl at them for the crime of not being human. That's not uncommon, and it always reminds me of Brave New World and how the characters were conditioned to be disgusted by all non-human life.

My old mutt is 15 yo and about 8 months past her liver cancer diagnosis, so she gets exactly what she wants, when she wants it. At this stage it's all about making sure she has a good outro. I did poorly with Dad's end-of-life care, which was bitterly disappointing, so I'm pretty determined not to screw up like that again.

[Pattern-chaser]

and that they are "slaves"

Correct. They are born, live, breed and die in (human) control, and in captivity that they cannot escape. If you don't call that slavery, what would you call it?

Is a human child the slave of the parent?

Child 'slaves' are 'released' as soon as they're adult/mature.
Child 'slaves' breed with whom they choose.
Child 'slaves' are never killed just because they're unwanted.
Child 'slaves' are not forced to work for their masters/owners.
And so on.

[Sy Borg]

and that they are "slaves"

Correct. They are born, live, breed and die in (human) control, and in captivity that they cannot escape. If you don't call that slavery, what would you call it?

Is a human child the slave of the parent?

Child 'slaves' are 'released' as soon as they're adult/mature.
Child 'slaves' breed with whom they choose.
Child 'slaves' are never killed just because they're unwanted.
Child 'slaves' are not forced to work for their masters/owners.
And so on.

Some animals are slaves, but pets are not. They are adopted and loved members of families. In terms of animal welfare, there are issues with unscrupulous breeders and irresponsible owners, but animal handling is hardly the only human endeavour beset with unscrupulous and irresponsible operators.

[GE Morton]

The horse is just one example; all animals are our slaves. But we don't work "with" horses; they work for us. If they don't/won't, we hurt them until they do, and if they still won't, we kill them and feed them to other slave-carnivores, or to humans, in some countries.

Horse love to work and they love human companionship. Many horse keepers, like dog owners sacrifice mcuh for love of their animals.
Your view point is very bitter.

Both of those claims contain kernels of truth, yet overall appear contradictory. How can they be reconciled?

But PChaser thinks that is the same life as my puppies live and that they are "slaves."

The "kernel of truth" in PC's claim is that domestic animals are under the control of humans. The "kernel" in your statement (above) is that human relationships with many animals involves companionship, willing cooperation, and mutual affection, which are not typical of master-slave relationships. Those "kernels" can be perhaps be reconciled if we heed the distinction between moral agents and moral subjects. For one moral agent to exert control over other moral agents is immoral prima facie, but it can be justified in some circumstances. Is that range of circumstances perhaps broader with respect to control over moral subjects, e.g. animals?

The analogy between human-animal relationships and adult-child relationships is informative, though not exact. It does suggest that control over animals is morally justifiable in some circumstances. Just where the line should be drawn is the issue, and would seem to depend upon the differences, observed and presumed, among moral agents and subjects.

[Sculptor1]

Yes, I struggle to help them keep slim, because if I had no control they would ned up like Jabba the Hut.
The one on the left (Boffy)* the Labrador, we have had for 8 years, adopted from an animal rescue. She is now nine.
This year we were looking at the website from the rescue centre where she came from and saw Rusty, the Golden Retriever (left). His owner got cancer and was too frail to look after him. We mad a visit and he looked at me. I was immediately compelled to adopt him too. He is already 11 years old, but we thought he deserved a nice end of life home. He's actually fitter than when we adopted him and is probably going to last a long time. But he's better with us than in a cage.

Old dogs are the best! Not many beings in the living world are mellower than old dogs. This is something not well understood by the non-dog public, whose lack of familiarity or respect results in them lumping all dogs together in much the same ways as old Confederate racists lumped together all black people. It's weird to see grown adults shrink in fear at our small, wizened, gentle, waddling old thing, although most people smile and go "Awww".

Are you suggesting that a certain person who has equated dog ownership to slavery is comparable to a Confederate racist?
Anyway Rusty has some idiosyncrasies from his old life. When I walk him out, and we get to a place where the grass is mowed he habitually rolls on his back with his legs in the air and then slides along. I think he is collecting scent. He can get a bit high in that respect. He is also a major expert in collecting cleavers stems burs, seedpods and thistle head on his coat. Until I had Rusty I did not appreciate just how "clever" nature is at spreading her seed pods. He also has the habit deciding to stop dead on the path and refusing to move. I think the previous owners used to treat him too much - that's why he was so overweight.
But Rusty had not yet learned how to control his slaves to give treats all the time!!!

Noooo. Rather, it's people who don't like dogs, who scowl at them for the crime of not being human. That's not uncommon, and it always reminds me of Brave New World and how the characters were conditioned to be disgusted by all non-human life.

My old mutt is 15 yo and about 8 months past her liver cancer diagnosis, so she gets exactly what she wants, when she wants it. At this stage it's all about making sure she has a good outro. I did poorly with Dad's end-of-life care, which was bitterly disappointing, so I'm pretty determined not to screw up like that again.

I'm sorry to hear about your Old mutt. I've imagined my dog's last moment. She absolutely loves to visit the Vet and I Plan to be with her in her last moments - though I know with will be hard on me.
As for people who do not like dogs. I have a friend who was bitten as a child, but he does not dislike as such. Aside from him I know no one like that. I live in a very dog friendly sub, the first part of whose name lends itslef to be changed to "woof".
There are many walks in the area.

[Sculptor1]

Domesticated animals are slaves, wild animals are either free or incarcerated.

Not my cats. They have a cat door, and come and go as they please. They do what they want when they want.

Really? So they want to get sterilized? They like injections?

They neither want to be sterilized nor stay fertile. They benefit from injections, and like children they are forgotten in a moment.
Any other questions?

[Sy Borg]

Old dogs are the best! Not many beings in the living world are mellower than old dogs. This is something not well understood by the non-dog public, whose lack of familiarity or respect results in them lumping all dogs together in much the same ways as old Confederate racists lumped together all black people. It's weird to see grown adults shrink in fear at our small, wizened, gentle, waddling old thing, although most people smile and go "Awww".

Are you suggesting that a certain person who has equated dog ownership to slavery is comparable to a Confederate racist? :lol:
Anyway Rusty has some idiosyncrasies from his old life. When I walk him out, and we get to a place where the grass is mowed he habitually rolls on his back with his legs in the air and then slides along. I think he is collecting scent. He can get a bit high in that respect. He is also a major expert in collecting cleavers stems burs, seedpods and thistle head on his coat. Until I had Rusty I did not appreciate just how "clever" nature is at spreading her seed pods. He also has the habit deciding to stop dead on the path and refusing to move. I think the previous owners used to treat him too much - that's why he was so overweight.
But Rusty had not yet learned how to control his slaves to give treats all the time!!!

Noooo. Rather, it's people who don't like dogs, who scowl at them for the crime of not being human. That's not uncommon, and it always reminds me of Brave New World and how the characters were conditioned to be disgusted by all non-human life.

My old mutt is 15 yo and about 8 months past her liver cancer diagnosis, so she gets exactly what she wants, when she wants it. At this stage it's all about making sure she has a good outro. I did poorly with Dad's end-of-life care, which was bitterly disappointing, so I'm pretty determined not to screw up like that again.

I'm sorry to hear about your Old mutt. I've imagined my dog's last moment. She absolutely loves to visit the Vet and I Plan to be with her in her last moments - though I know with will be hard on me.
As for people who do not like dogs. I have a friend who was bitten as a child, but he does not dislike as such. Aside from him I know no one like that. I live in a very dog friendly sub, the first part of whose name lends itslef to be changed to "woof".
There are many walks in the area.

Yes, you hear of people who have been badly bitten by dogs (I think we've all been bitten at some stage or another, just as we've all been hit by other humans).

There's a range of responses to being wronged. When some are traumatised they shake it off, forgive, and move on. When others are traumatised, they blame the individuals (which seems to be how I respond, despite knowing intellectually that they were just sick and entropically inclined). Others respond by hating the entire group indiscriminately.

While my natural response is imperfect, this last response is a major problem for the world. Generalised hostility and prejudice is the mindset of war, which is why it's so thoroughly inappropriate when applied to a pet species.

As for our old girl, hopefully she will drop in her sleep. If she ever had to be euthanased, we'd have to get the vet to come out. She dislikes going to the vet and it would be an unpleasant way for her to go out.