Short and sweet: nihilism

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Arbu123
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Short and sweet: nihilism

Post by Arbu123 »

Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

Post by Meta Island »

Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 3:24 pm Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
I don’t understand nihilism. Doesn’t it contradict its foundations? My understanding is that it rejects the existence of, among other things, knowledge and meaning. But doesn’t it present itself as a type of meaningful knowledge?
“Never does Nature say one thing and Wisdom another.” - Juvenal
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Meta Island wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 7:16 pm
Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 3:24 pm Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
I don’t understand nihilism. Doesn’t it contradict its foundations? My understanding is that it rejects the existence of, among other things, knowledge and meaning. But doesn’t it present itself as a type of meaningful knowledge?
I mean that there’s no moral or immoral.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

Post by Meta Island »

Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 7:47 pm
Meta Island wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 7:16 pm
Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 3:24 pm Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
I don’t understand nihilism. Doesn’t it contradict its foundations? My understanding is that it rejects the existence of, among other things, knowledge and meaning. But doesn’t it present itself as a type of meaningful knowledge?
I mean that there’s no moral or immoral.
Apologies, but I can't be of much help here. I don't see what you see.
“Never does Nature say one thing and Wisdom another.” - Juvenal
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 3:24 pm Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
Many claim that evolution does not have a direction. I tend towards empiricism and, as far as I can tell, evolution has very clearly shown a direction, towards ever greater complexity, sophistication and specialisation. Extinction events may "reset" life, sending it to a state closer to the distant past, but the seeds of complexity remain in the survivors, and come to fruition when conditions stabilise.

So life can indeed have meaning when one considers the extraordinary advances made in the past, and future potentials. At present, people tend to be pessimistic because short-term prognoses for societies and nature are uniformly poor, and medium-term too. However, this is a time of great change, and the disruption the changes bring are invariably painful.

I am personally optimistic about the long term potentials of the Earth, which the planet might achieve in the future. Still, there are no guarantees. A "planet-killer" asteroid could end it all. However, I find meaning in being part of this great evolutionary chain, leading to who-knows-where.

Still, in terms of the circus known as "society", without considering its broader context (as above), nihilism makes perfect sense. We are drowning in absurdity - politics, social media, reality TV, the news media, illogical laws and social norms. When the ostensible madness gets a bit much, Camus has my favourite answer - to accept the mind-numbing grind of life as a given and instead focus instead on the many wondrous aspects of reality.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 3:24 pm Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
Sy Borg wrote: September 25th, 2022, 2:26 am Many claim that evolution does not have a direction. I tend towards empiricism and, as far as I can tell, evolution has very clearly shown a direction, towards ever greater complexity, sophistication and specialisation.
I think we sometimes tend to consider evolution as if it was a mindfully-guided process. This leads to all kinds of misunderstandings. Evolution is a mechanism whereby difference can emerge by mutation. Mindless mutation that occurs by chance, not design. Mutations are not even selected; they just happen. Most don't survive because they are, in some way, non-viable. But sometimes, a mutation occurs that confers some degree of success upon the mutated animal, and so that trait is preserved, or can be.

Evolution does tend in the direction(s) you describe, but it's never planned and always, I suppose, unexpected. We could look at it as Nature trying out different combinations, but randomly, not with a direction or purpose.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 26th, 2022, 10:04 am
Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 3:24 pm Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
Sy Borg wrote: September 25th, 2022, 2:26 am Many claim that evolution does not have a direction. I tend towards empiricism and, as far as I can tell, evolution has very clearly shown a direction, towards ever greater complexity, sophistication and specialisation.
I think we sometimes tend to consider evolution as if it was a mindfully-guided process. This leads to all kinds of misunderstandings. Evolution is a mechanism whereby difference can emerge by mutation. Mindless mutation that occurs by chance, not design. Mutations are not even selected; they just happen. Most don't survive because they are, in some way, non-viable. But sometimes, a mutation occurs that confers some degree of success upon the mutated animal, and so that trait is preserved, or can be.

Evolution does tend in the direction(s) you describe, but it's never planned and always, I suppose, unexpected. We could look at it as Nature trying out different combinations, but randomly, not with a direction or purpose.
Sure, some people think that God dunnit, but I don't care about that, just what is real. That ancient idea is probably responsible for the resistance to appreciating that evolution results in progression. However, that too is being held captive by ideology, failing to see what is in front of one's face due to pre-conceived beliefs.

However, if we value evidence, even our small sample of one is compelling. If we consider events from 3.8 billion years ago to now, we see constant progression at varying rates, interrupted by occasional extinction events.

While fish that move from the open waters to caves lose their vision and koalas lost the cortical folds, these regressions happened simply because vision and mental work are energetically expensive, and resources became too scarce for those animals to support those functions. Those who lost the functions would have reproduced more successfully than the sighted fish and smart koalas, because the sight and smarts were wasted, the animals' energy better deployed to other functions.

The biosphere's journey has the same dynamics as those in individuals' and colonies' lives. Life is life, being it a microbe or an ecosystem. They all grow at different rates, they get sick occasionally and sometimes almost die. They mostly progress but sometimes there are regressions due to stressors. And, in the end, they all die, their bodies breaking down back into the Earth, but possibly reproducing first.

So it's not destiny or fate. If the asteroid responsible for the Chicxulub crater was a larger object, life may have been reduced to subterranean organisms or been snuffed out altogether. If the object had been much smaller, dinosaurs would probably still be dominant.

But here we are, neither microbes, dinosaurs nor dead.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 3:24 pm Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
To be or not to are no questions for one wishing to overcome birth, aging, sickness, death and breaking apart, good householder, but just the turning on wheel, from moment so moment.

Died off right here? And now? Another try to become, be?
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Pattern-chaser wrote: September 26th, 2022, 10:04 am
Arbu123 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 3:24 pm Evolution appears to be allowing full potential. Does this argument hold up nihilism alone? Duality says, “Yes.” Free will says, “Yes.” Even metaphysical arguments, like Heaven AND Hell say, “Yes.” What do you guys think? Adaptation—to me—seems like it’s a way species are becoming “better” according to their surroundings. Even though evolution is a priori, I think it’s correct. If evolution becomes accepted, or proven, will nihilism fall in line shortly after?
Sy Borg wrote: September 25th, 2022, 2:26 am Many claim that evolution does not have a direction. I tend towards empiricism and, as far as I can tell, evolution has very clearly shown a direction, towards ever greater complexity, sophistication and specialisation.
I think we sometimes tend to consider evolution as if it was a mindfully-guided process. This leads to all kinds of misunderstandings. Evolution is a mechanism whereby difference can emerge by mutation. Mindless mutation that occurs by chance, not design. Mutations are not even selected; they just happen. Most don't survive because they are, in some way, non-viable. But sometimes, a mutation occurs that confers some degree of success upon the mutated animal, and so that trait is preserved, or can be.

Evolution does tend in the direction(s) you describe, but it's never planned and always, I suppose, unexpected. We could look at it as Nature trying out different combinations, but randomly, not with a direction or purpose.

If DNA can be viewed as a complex set of instructions, then it can be viewed as a complex set of ideas. Understanding how ideas link to other ideas could help support Sy’s view that evolution has a direction toward greater complexity, and it could also support Pattern’s view that evolution has a mechanism that nurtures “trying out” different combinations of ideas when it encounters chance environmental variables.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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In terms of nature v nurture, I see DNA as "stored nurture", especially with epigenetics being found to be influential. Thus "nature" is really just the "nurture" of previous generations. DNA carries history (and pre-history) that helps to shape the present. DNA holds the unspoken life lessons of our ancestors, passing on attributes to their offspring that helped them to survive and breed.

Certainly researchers are using DNA to extract stories from ancient times about both the organism and its environment.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Sy Borg wrote: September 27th, 2022, 8:51 pm In terms of nature v nurture, I see DNA as "stored nurture", especially with epigenetics being found to be influential. Thus "nature" is really just the "nurture" of previous generations. DNA carries history (and pre-history) that helps to shape the present. DNA holds the unspoken life lessons of our ancestors, passing on attributes to their offspring that helped them to survive and breed.

Certainly researchers are using DNA to extract stories from ancient times about both the organism and its environment.
Reverse engineering DNA programming, stepping through the changes, will look eerily like DNA self-awareness. 😊
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Meta Island wrote: September 27th, 2022, 9:54 pm
Sy Borg wrote: September 27th, 2022, 8:51 pm In terms of nature v nurture, I see DNA as "stored nurture", especially with epigenetics being found to be influential. Thus "nature" is really just the "nurture" of previous generations. DNA carries history (and pre-history) that helps to shape the present. DNA holds the unspoken life lessons of our ancestors, passing on attributes to their offspring that helped them to survive and breed.

Certainly researchers are using DNA to extract stories from ancient times about both the organism and its environment.
Reverse engineering DNA programming, stepping through the changes, will look eerily like DNA self-awareness. 😊
Not so sure about self-awareness, but certainly memory.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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I think what I was pondering was that ecolution’s great direction was FULL POTENTIAL. To allow anything and give potential to everything. That idea gave nihilism a nest, so to speak. I’m not sure if it’s correct to evolve into full potential, though. I’d rather be able to do anything than be able to do a limited amount of things and it’s in our nature to be violent AND forgiving.

Empiricism seems right, especially when the imagination and emotions are considered senses—as if we had seven instead of five because without ideas to think up, we’re left with only a few senses guiding our advancement.

The notion that extinction is paramount to vital change is scary and crude. I think the adaptation to threats and dangers just made us stronger. There’s no way that there’s a space—a giant, complex organism—guiding rocks to preserve the life of man. There’s no interactions with it outside of presumed planned rock attacks. He never says hi, go **** yourself or anything. Meh…different discussion. Evolution still seems to be an adaptation or change into a better or more successful state. The direction that we’re changing or correcting is the debate. I think it’s full potential and that nihilism’s the root of the tree that bears fruit.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Arbu123 wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:37 pm I think what I was pondering was that evolution’s great direction was FULL POTENTIAL. To allow anything and give potential to everything. That idea gave nihilism a nest, so to speak. I’m not sure if it’s correct to evolve into full potential, though. I’d rather be able to do anything than be able to do a limited amount of things and it’s in our nature to be violent AND forgiving.

Empiricism seems right, especially when the imagination and emotions are considered senses—as if we had seven instead of five because without ideas to think up, we’re left with only a few senses guiding our advancement.

The notion that extinction is paramount to vital change is scary and crude. I think the adaptation to threats and dangers just made us stronger. There’s no way that there’s a space—a giant, complex organism—guiding rocks to preserve the life of man. There’s no interactions with it outside of presumed planned rock attacks. He never says hi, go **** yourself or anything. Meh…different discussion. Evolution still seems to be an adaptation or change into a better or more successful state. The direction that we’re changing or correcting is the debate. I think it’s full potential and that nihilism’s the root of the tree that bears fruit.
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Re: Short and sweet: nihilism

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Sy Borg wrote: September 27th, 2022, 8:51 pm In terms of nature v nurture, I see DNA as "stored nurture", especially with epigenetics being found to be influential. Thus "nature" is really just the "nurture" of previous generations. DNA carries history (and pre-history) that helps to shape the present. DNA holds the unspoken life lessons of our ancestors, passing on attributes to their offspring that helped them to survive and breed.

Certainly researchers are using DNA to extract stories from ancient times about both the organism and its environment.
So it's because of DNA that one is a thieve, a killer, a fool, an abuser, or Admin? Higher and lower on kind of birth... Classical Brahmanism and believe in caste.
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