(Mental) pleasure as a moral evil, what are some other perspectives?

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Sculptor1
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Re: (Mental) pleasure as a moral evil, what are some other perspectives?

Post by Sculptor1 »

EricPH wrote: October 1st, 2022, 2:46 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 29th, 2022, 11:41 am reading the book of nature which tends to favour pleasure over pain.
Thus the pursuit of a happy life full of pleasure ought to be our main aim, simply as that is what nature seems to be telling us.
Rapists and paedophiles would probably agree with you. Many pleasures impinge on the pleasure and happiness of others.
God loves them too apparently..
But what exactly is the point you are trying to make here?
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Samana Johann
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Re: (Mental) pleasure as a moral evil, what are some other perspectives?

Post by Samana Johann »

Quirelune wrote: October 1st, 2022, 4:38 am
Samana Johann wrote: September 30th, 2022, 3:37 am Not at all is pleasure regarded as suffering by the Sublime Buddha, but there is pleasure of the senses which is blame worthy, leads to much suffering for oneself and is based on suffering of others, yet there are many refined levels of joy recogniced by the liberal, till the peace of beyond
To be honest, I think that in terms of authority, no text could trump a living teacher that I'd had for many years who taught me everything I know. It was not just a cultural family situation, it was more hardcore in my case, with a lot of meditation and personal retreats. I even planned to be a monk. But then I started doubting the very 'goal' of the teaching. I thought that maybe what they all seek (non-duality) is simply a feeling of being in the world as a newborn baby, for their perception is likely undifferentiated and, in that way, non-dual. This how I lost my faith. I'm very partial to the concept to universal truth, and I couldn't continue to believe in something that I started doubting as being objectively true. There's no point in pursuing something that's likely just a state of an infant's mind, it's not progress but regress.
Seldom do beings get in touch with the good teachings of the Buddha, good householder. Seldom does one meet the Buddhas monks. Unbond means: task done, no further becomin, nothing further for the world. But such isn't reached by merely thinking.

It's because of that that the Buddha called those poorly delivering the teaching in way of "is", leading o states like stupid baby boys, stupid baby boys. For even a stupid baby boy has no notion of real, lasting, self, isn't free of desire and suffering.
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Re: (Mental) pleasure as a moral evil, what are some other perspectives?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Quirelune wrote: October 1st, 2022, 4:38 am ...This how I lost my faith. I'm very partial to the concept to universal truth, and I couldn't continue to believe in something that I started doubting as being objectively true...
Yes, the desire for certainty is so strong we can and will deny almost any evidence to the contrary. Sometimes, as you seem to imply, even "pretty sure" won't do; it has to be absolute ("objectively true"). Sadly, the real world does not seem to support or nurture our desire for surety.
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Re: (Mental) pleasure as a moral evil, what are some other perspectives?

Post by Quirelune »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 9:51 am Yes, the desire for certainty is so strong we can and will deny almost any evidence to the contrary. Sometimes, as you seem to imply, even "pretty sure" won't do; it has to be absolute ("objectively true"). Sadly, the real world does not seem to support or nurture our desire for surety.
I do believe in the absolute truth, regardless of how unpopular such a belief is nowadays... Even as a child, I'd longed for it. I remember how confused I'd felt as a child whenever my mother would say something one day, which I took to be true, only to say the opposite of it afterwards! I'd felt so lost whenever that happened. Other people also spoke their opinions, and just when I'd discover what was 'true' from them, someone else would contradict that truth. It was such a torment to a child. I grew up unsure of everythingand second guessing my own opinions. Buddhism had provided a nice absolute truth haven to combat that torment all along, though, and painted such a benign picture of the hidden metaphysical reality. Too bad I've lost all faith and now operate on rational terms.

But honestly, I don't know how people live without looking for truth. What's the point of life if everything is subjective and relative? That can't even be true anyway, because if it was, we'd all be solipsists and nothing that we perceive could be shared. There's an underlying reality that we all share our perception of, at the very least. Not that we know much about it. But our own limits of perceiving and knowing don't prove that something absolute doesn't exist.
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Re: (Mental) pleasure as a moral evil, what are some other perspectives?

Post by Samana Johann »

Quirelune wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 8:27 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 9:51 am Yes, the desire for certainty is so strong we can and will deny almost any evidence to the contrary. Sometimes, as you seem to imply, even "pretty sure" won't do; it has to be absolute ("objectively true"). Sadly, the real world does not seem to support or nurture our desire for surety.
I do believe in the absolute truth, regardless of how unpopular such a belief is nowadays... Even as a child, I'd longed for it. I remember how confused I'd felt as a child whenever my mother would say something one day, which I took to be true, only to say the opposite of it afterwards! I'd felt so lost whenever that happened. Other people also spoke their opinions, and just when I'd discover what was 'true' from them, someone else would contradict that truth. It was such a torment to a child. I grew up unsure of everythingand second guessing my own opinions. Buddhism had provided a nice absolute truth haven to combat that torment all along, though, and painted such a benign picture of the hidden metaphysical reality. Too bad I've lost all faith and now operate on rational terms.

But honestly, I don't know how people live without looking for truth. What's the point of life if everything is subjective and relative? That can't even be true anyway, because if it was, we'd all be solipsists and nothing that we perceive could be shared. There's an underlying reality that we all share our perception of, at the very least. Not that we know much about it. But our own limits of perceiving and knowing don't prove that something absolute doesn't exist.
Nobody acts, thinks, without holding this or that for true or leading to it, good householder. Even animals act on believing something as a refuge. Good to always ask before opposition of good in mind argues to go against the simple basic wrongs: "really?" and to doubt if they say: "effects of wrong aren't for sure".

The all underlying reality is the truth of suffering.
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