Amoralism

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xristos181
Posts: 16
Joined: March 27th, 2023, 4:43 pm

Amoralism

Post by xristos181 »

Is morality a religion?Are we all just self-interest even in actions we call good and humane?Does having a consciousness prevent us from being amoral?
Are there inhumane action or just actions?So is humane and inhumane just an imaninary concept to think that there is a higher purpose in society other than peace and fear of war and aggression between two individuals and their groups/packs.If this is all wrong then are a sadist,a psychopath,a person(group of persons) that commits small or big crimes or even atrocities just defects,sick,"an anomaly in the matrix"?
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Amoralism

Post by Gertie »

xristos181 wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:32 pm Is morality a religion?Are we all just self-interest even in actions we call good and humane?Does having a consciousness prevent us from being amoral?
Are there inhumane action or just actions?So is humane and inhumane just an imaninary concept to think that there is a higher purpose in society other than peace and fear of war and aggression between two individuals and their groups/packs.If this is all wrong then are a sadist,a psychopath,a person(group of persons) that commits small or big crimes or even atrocities just defects,sick,"an anomaly in the matrix"?
There are (at least) two ways of thinking about this.

We can consider morality and conscience as a set of evolved biological social mechanisms which helped our social species thrive. Caring for off-spring, kin and tribe, and cooperation between group members have great benefits. (We've even found ways to overcome harmful tribal competition, such as developing shared norms, or being useful to each other via trade and alliances. That can be fragile tho).

In such a framing our social and selfish instincts can usefully work in tandem overall. And we can get by with a few sociopaths who might have other skills to offer the group, as long as they don't make themselves too much of a nuisance and follow the important rules. Or break them sneakily enough we don't notice.

The other approach to morality is to consider the abstract concepts of right and wrong and oughts. Are such concepts valuable and worth having? Most people think so. A sociopath might see some value in those concepts and choose to abide by their version of them, without the visceral neurobiological mechanisms which amount to feeling a conscience kick in. Many of us also know the feeling of 'trying to do the right thing' when we're not really feeling it at that instinctual level.

Sociopaths in powerful leadership positions are a worry tho. As are those who have 'soft' influence, and there are an abundance of media now for them to try to use and manipulate, which our institutions struggle to constrain as they have in the past. Not to say our institutions are invulnerable to sociopaths either!
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LuckyR
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Re: Amoralism

Post by LuckyR »

Gertie wrote: March 29th, 2023, 12:06 pm
xristos181 wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:32 pm Is morality a religion?Are we all just self-interest even in actions we call good and humane?Does having a consciousness prevent us from being amoral?
Are there inhumane action or just actions?So is humane and inhumane just an imaninary concept to think that there is a higher purpose in society other than peace and fear of war and aggression between two individuals and their groups/packs.If this is all wrong then are a sadist,a psychopath,a person(group of persons) that commits small or big crimes or even atrocities just defects,sick,"an anomaly in the matrix"?
There are (at least) two ways of thinking about this.

We can consider morality and conscience as a set of evolved biological social mechanisms which helped our social species thrive. Caring for off-spring, kin and tribe, and cooperation between group members have great benefits. (We've even found ways to overcome harmful tribal competition, such as developing shared norms, or being useful to each other via trade and alliances. That can be fragile tho).

In such a framing our social and selfish instincts can usefully work in tandem overall. And we can get by with a few sociopaths who might have other skills to offer the group, as long as they don't make themselves too much of a nuisance and follow the important rules. Or break them sneakily enough we don't notice.

The other approach to morality is to consider the abstract concepts of right and wrong and oughts. Are such concepts valuable and worth having? Most people think so. A sociopath might see some value in those concepts and choose to abide by their version of them, without the visceral neurobiological mechanisms which amount to feeling a conscience kick in. Many of us also know the feeling of 'trying to do the right thing' when we're not really feeling it at that instinctual level.

Sociopaths in powerful leadership positions are a worry tho. As are those who have 'soft' influence, and there are an abundance of media now for them to try to use and manipulate, which our institutions struggle to constrain as they have in the past. Not to say our institutions are invulnerable to sociopaths either!
Wow, best post I've read in a while. Great summary. Personally I am in the former camp, as I am more practically minded as opposed to theoretical, though to my mind one can get from here to there.
"As usual... it depends."
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Amoralism

Post by Gertie »

LuckyR wrote: March 29th, 2023, 1:20 pm
Gertie wrote: March 29th, 2023, 12:06 pm
xristos181 wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:32 pm Is morality a religion?Are we all just self-interest even in actions we call good and humane?Does having a consciousness prevent us from being amoral?
Are there inhumane action or just actions?So is humane and inhumane just an imaninary concept to think that there is a higher purpose in society other than peace and fear of war and aggression between two individuals and their groups/packs.If this is all wrong then are a sadist,a psychopath,a person(group of persons) that commits small or big crimes or even atrocities just defects,sick,"an anomaly in the matrix"?
There are (at least) two ways of thinking about this.

We can consider morality and conscience as a set of evolved biological social mechanisms which helped our social species thrive. Caring for off-spring, kin and tribe, and cooperation between group members have great benefits. (We've even found ways to overcome harmful tribal competition, such as developing shared norms, or being useful to each other via trade and alliances. That can be fragile tho).

In such a framing our social and selfish instincts can usefully work in tandem overall. And we can get by with a few sociopaths who might have other skills to offer the group, as long as they don't make themselves too much of a nuisance and follow the important rules. Or break them sneakily enough we don't notice.

The other approach to morality is to consider the abstract concepts of right and wrong and oughts. Are such concepts valuable and worth having? Most people think so. A sociopath might see some value in those concepts and choose to abide by their version of them, without the visceral neurobiological mechanisms which amount to feeling a conscience kick in. Many of us also know the feeling of 'trying to do the right thing' when we're not really feeling it at that instinctual level.

Sociopaths in powerful leadership positions are a worry tho. As are those who have 'soft' influence, and there are an abundance of media now for them to try to use and manipulate, which our institutions struggle to constrain as they have in the past. Not to say our institutions are invulnerable to sociopaths either!
Wow, best post I've read in a while. Great summary. Personally I am in the former camp, as I am more practically minded as opposed to theoretical, though to my mind one can from here to there.
Thanks Lucky!
popeye1945
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Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: Amoralism

Post by popeye1945 »

xristos181 wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:32 pm Is morality a religion? Are we all just self-interested even in actions we call good and humane? Does having a consciousness prevent us from being amoral?
Are there inhumane actions or just actions? So is humane and inhumane just an imaginary concept to think that there is a higher purpose in society other than peace and fear of war and aggression between two individuals and their groups/packs. If this is all wrong then are a sadist, a psychopath, a person (group of persons) that commits small or big crimes or even atrocities just defects,sick,"an anomaly in the matrix"?
Morality is built upon one's self identifying with the self in others, it is at this point compassion arises in the self-interest of the expanded concept of the self. Compassion is the essence of morality which is the foundation of society, if people could expand that concept to humanity at large, one could have world peace or a united humanity. Morality's proper subject is human biology, for human biology for us, is the self, the expanded concept of the self is then our common biology. Society is a shelter from the harsh reality of an unaware nature, for as a process nature cares not for the individual but only for the continuation of the given species. Nature is our nurturer and the enemy that make us stronger, as a species we are legion, and self-interest is the matter that holds society together. This is true in differing ways throughout the living world. This too, is why sometimes the psychopath is referred to as a nature man, for he/she does not identify with others, and is devoid of compassion, thus being a cancer to any give society. The self-interest of the psychopath is limited to his/her enclosed self.
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