What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

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JackDaydream
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What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

Post by JackDaydream »

I was thinking about this recently and how much is about the limitations of ideas about gender and stereotypes and about the nature of the power structure. Sexism may affect men and women but, at the same time, in the context of history, women have been subordinate to men. So much has changed, especially in the twentieth century, especially with the rise of feminism, the deconstruction of gender in postmodernism and a general understanding of inequalities.

There is the question of the nature of biological differences, especially to what extent are men and women different. Also, there is the gender spectrum, especially in issues addressed by members of the LGBTIQ communities. There is a huge debate sparked by J K Rowling about the biological women and it can be asked whether her ideas have been blown beyond all proportions. Nevertheless, the issue of transgender raises questions about the limitations of gender and stereotypes.

So, the philosophy questions may involve thinking about the nature of gender itself as well as the nature of patriarchy. It is also about the nature of prejudice and discrimination, both towards women and men, as well as towards differently gendered and sexual minorities? How may power be understood and the abuse of power, Is there a parallel between prejudice and discrimination on the basis of gender and race? Also, while transgender issues may be seen as diminishing the concerns of female insubordination, to what extent do the identity issues arise in the context of sexist thinking and its inherent stereotypes of body and behaviour come into play in human life?

I am not intending to create a thread about transgender issues specifically. If anything, I am left wondering how much of the heated debates around transgender are about sexism. How much is about gender subversion and its projection on the obvious deviants who transgress the binary distinctions and what does this say about the nature of gender dynamics and sexism?

Sexism is usually seen as dubious ethically, ranging from ideas about what a person, especially a female, .. can become. It can also involve ideas of how sexuality should be presented, such as how a woman may present in such a way as to encourage the intrusive behaviour of rapists. So much is about stereotypical assumptions and it does come down to the queston of sexism and its ethical assumptions. So, how do you see this area of prejudice and discrimination for men and women and those who may identify as somewhere in between? Does sexism exist and to what extent does it matter ethically?
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

Post by Sy Borg »

We have billions of technological simians struggling to reconcile their evolutionary heritage with modern society. Sex and gender are biological but, in the modern world, they are playthings in the domain of display behaviour.

I, for one, attempt to absolutely eschew display behaviour, which is simply primitive. In the past, it was as much a source of fun as toxicity. Now these are used for tribal-style affiliations and conflicts. That is why sex and gender will gradually go away in elite humans. The masses will continue, more or less as usual.

In the end, I don't care what job a person has, what their hobbies are, what they look like, their gender, their sexuality, or any of those things. Is the person a good person? Decent? Fair-minded? Has more than eighteen brain cells to rub together? If so, colour me impressed. The rest is simply not my business, nor society's, unless the person's interests cause harm, eg. cruel and predatory behaviours.

I find it amazing that a person can think that the sexuality or gender of a person who lives across the globe is their business. It ultimately comes down to arrogance and disrespect for others.
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

Post by Stoppelmann »

JackDaydream wrote: April 25th, 2023, 2:00 pm I was thinking about this recently and how much is about the limitations of ideas about gender and stereotypes and about the nature of the power structure. Sexism may affect men and women but, at the same time, in the context of history, women have been subordinate to men. So much has changed, especially in the twentieth century, especially with the rise of feminism, the deconstruction of gender in postmodernism and a general understanding of inequalities.
It is nearly always about power. In the past, power dictated bluntly, and men were the only protection for women and their entourage of children and the elderly, dictated to as women were by nature. In societies where a certain privilege was given to European “nobility” and those who profited from them, they called it civility and women started having a chance to show their merit once they were not dictated to or subject to abominable conditions. Unfortunately, this isn’t so long ago, and prejudice prevails, and women are still expected to bow to men’s wishes in many quarters, despite technological methods developing in the 20th century to prevent pregnancies. However, feminism initially pushed through and abundant examples of women who gained access to education started showing that women were more industrious than men were happy to acknowledge.
JackDaydream wrote: April 25th, 2023, 2:00 pm There is the question of the nature of biological differences, especially to what extent are men and women different. Also, there is the gender spectrum, especially in issues addressed by members of the LGBTIQ communities. There is a huge debate sparked by J K Rowling about the biological women and it can be asked whether her ideas have been blown beyond all proportions. Nevertheless, the issue of transgender raises questions about the limitations of gender and stereotypes.
I think you are jumping on the gender bandwagon here, although you mean well. There are only men and women biologically, and deviations only prove the rule. But men and women in Western society have been allowed to explore outside of stereotypes, and we have seen that there are preferences that are based on inherent affinity to one or both of the sexes, as well as social factors. Take away the benefits of technology and you are back with male and female, sexual drive and needs, which are quite bluntly existential. Sex for pleasure or psychological balance is part of the drive to produce offspring, which is only artificially prevented at the cost of side-effects.

The gender issue is the rise of fetishism, a form of sexual deviance involving erotic attachment to an inanimate object or one’s imagination. It can be as compelling as substance abuse, and as destructive. JK Rowling didn’t spark any debate, but waded in when she saw how the achievements of feminism were being systematically appropriated by fetishists, and the role of woman and mother erased. She saw abused and traumatised women, for whom safe houses had been made available, subject to biological males entering and virtually taking over these institutions and using typically male methods of dominance. She also saw how the inclusion of multiple fetishisms under the “Alphabet rainbow,” made activism narcissistic and violent towards women, and the “inclusion” of these deviances set in law meant that women were targeted as perpetrators of “hate crime” for pointing out the loopholes that have already been exploited multiple times.
JackDaydream wrote: April 25th, 2023, 2:00 pm So, the philosophy questions may involve thinking about the nature of gender itself as well as the nature of patriarchy. It is also about the nature of prejudice and discrimination, both towards women and men, as well as towards differently gendered and sexual minorities? How may power be understood and the abuse of power, Is there a parallel between prejudice and discrimination on the basis of gender and race? Also, while transgender issues may be seen as diminishing the concerns of female insubordination, to what extent do the identity issues arise in the context of sexist thinking and its inherent stereotypes of body and behaviour come into play in human life?
As I said above, it is always about power, which you can experience in sports locker rooms, or amongst males in professions that are stereotyped as masculine. I have seen how the exploitation of women works, and sexism is just a nice word for it. Of course, women have grouped and taken revenge, but the advantage of men is that they exploit women who are little more than girls, either mentally or physically, who are still awed by their masculinity. Discrimination can be about anything or anyone, so it is too wide a terminology, and laws against discrimination take that into account, but each issue must be taken for itself. Sexism is our subject here, and a rejection of a role of womanhood that should have become available to all women, but that was lost in the industrial revolution, regained to a certain degree with side-effects, and is in question once again. The farms of the pre-industrial age showed how a distribution of tasks according to strength and biological necessity made the partnership between man and woman symbiotic, only it wasn’t available for everyone.

Now we have a neo-feminism that believes in “Meat Lego” and thinks that technology is the answer, and has shunned the biological roles as patriarchal oppression, which is why many support the medication and surgery for “trans children”. These “feminists” are, in fact, obsessed with overcoming their biological existence and see themselves as the “better” human, and men are but a means to an end, which this explains the flood of implausible feminist roles in entertainment, and the ridiculing of male heroes.
JackDaydream wrote: April 25th, 2023, 2:00 pm I am not intending to create a thread about transgender issues specifically. If anything, I am left wondering how much of the heated debates around transgender are about sexism. How much is about gender subversion and its projection on the obvious deviants who transgress the binary distinctions and what does this say about the nature of gender dynamics and sexism?

Sexism is usually seen as dubious ethically, ranging from ideas about what a person, especially a female, .. can become. It can also involve ideas of how sexuality should be presented, such as how a woman may present in such a way as to encourage the intrusive behaviour of rapists. So much is about stereotypical assumptions and it does come down to the queston of sexism and its ethical assumptions. So, how do you see this area of prejudice and discrimination for men and women and those who may identify as somewhere in between? Does sexism exist and to what extent does it matter ethically?
The heated debate about transgender is another power debate, with fetishised young men who can’t cope with masculinity and the role they would be expected to play claiming the ground of stereotyped women who wouldn’t have been expected to fulfil such roles. That is why you often see them prancing about like women in the advertisements of the 1950s, a mere caricature of women, although they remain biologically male. They take oestrogen for cosmetic reasons, despite the side-effects, get off on having some silicon planted in their chest, and demand of everybody that they kowtow to their whims and fancies. But above all, women who protest at this charade are to be silenced, and if necessary, beaten into submission. That is male dominance in a dress.

Transsexuals who have transitioned as adults long ago have said that their lives have been devasted by this activism, and they have been drawn into a debate that they want no part of. If anything, the whole issue has drawn attention of men to the issue and put them on guard, which explains why violence has risen against trans women, although the domestic violence against biological women is still far more deadly. Add to that the increasing numbers of trans-identified sex offenders, who percentage wise outnumber the men, and you can see that it is a case of sexism, even if the man is wearing a dress.
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

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Stoppelman, if you do not understand something, such as transsexualism, I suggest you abstain from taking about it. Almost everything you said about transsexuals was wrong, not only according to medicine, but the transpeople I have known. It's quite possible that you have met a number of them without having a clue. Not all are so easy to clock, although if you work in HR for long enough, you find out who's who at the zoo. I never once met a trans that pranced. Never. I have seen drag queens and twinks prance, but not transpeople. Most can't tell the difference ... right?

I think the whole non-binary trend is a rebellion against the structure of gender roles, and there is much to rebel against for those who don't fit, due to the absurd levels of exclusion and ostracism for simply existing. I think there is also an element of anger and hostility at having hope ripped away by older generations.

More than anything, it reminds me of guys in the 60s growing their hair long. Man, did that cause a effing stink! The media, of course, cannot differentiate between transpeople and genderqueer people because the boundaries are blurred and it would take time and effort. Same can be said for most people sticking their nose into other people's business online.

The media too should abstain from speaking about that which they do not understand, but I suppose the idea of journalists showing that level of discipline and understanding is laughable. An even bigger trend than non-binary is celibacy, but you don't read about that because "sex sells".
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

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Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 12:30 am Stoppelman, if you do not understand something, such as transsexualism, I suggest you abstain from taking about it. Almost everything you said about transsexuals was wrong, not only according to medicine, but the transpeople I have known. It's quite possible that you have met a number of them without having a clue. Not all are so easy to clock, although if you work in HR for long enough, you find out who's who at the zoo. I never once met a trans that pranced. Never. I have seen drag queens and twinks prance, but not transpeople. Most can't tell the difference ... right?
Transactivism isn’t about transsexuals, of which I knew several in the 1990s, and who were trying desperately not to appear as anything but women or men. They wanted to be judged by their abilities, not by their appearance, and had enough issues with that because women already had a disadvantage, and identifying as one made them subject to that disadvantage. I worked in healthcare as a nurse, which many men who knew about my past in the army and doing physical work in recovery couldn’t get to grips with. That is why I have a huge sympathy for women and those who identify fully with that gender.

What we are seeing though is quite different, especially amongst young men identifying as women. They flaunt their preference in a way that many women regard as a caricature and tend to support silencing women voicing their concerns. The concerns of women are very real, and not the hyped-up things that transactivists claim. The worries of women are that if a man has no requirement to qualify their claim that they are women, it opens the door wide for those people who will misuse the system, and we already have multiple instances of this happening. It opens the door to areas where women are vulnerable, where they are able to be with other women with similar concerns, similar health issues, similar experience of male violence, and where they can recover from trauma. This is all women want, but it is being taken from them in the name of inclusivity.
Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 12:30 am I think the whole non-binary trend is a rebellion against the structure of gender roles, and there is much to rebel against for those who don't fit, due to the absurd levels of exclusion and ostracism for simply existing. I think there is also an element of anger and hostility at having hope ripped away by older generations.

More than anything, it reminds me of guys in the 60s growing their hair long. Man, did that cause a effing stink! The media, of course, cannot differentiate between transpeople and genderqueer people because the boundaries are blurred and it would take time and effort. Same can be said for most people sticking their nose into other people's business online.

The media too should abstain from speaking about that which they do not understand, but I suppose the idea of journalists showing that level of discipline and understanding is laughable. An even bigger trend than non-binary is celibacy, but you don't read about that because "sex sells".
This isn’t only about rebellion, but even if it were, why do women have to suffer the removal of their status as women? Women are adult human females, trans women are different, which is why they have the word trans in front of women. People have a right to rebel, but the do not have the right to infringe on other people’s rights when doing so.

So the people sticking their noses into other people’s business are the transactivists who close down any women’s event where exclusively biological women are invited. It is the transactivists that put up signs with insulting phrases, such as s*ck my trans c*ck, and other profanities. Women want to speak openly, but it isn’t allowed, and any criticism of gender ideology is described as hate. Freedom of speech allows criticism of ideas, but transactivism doesn’t.

So who is the one who does not understand something?
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

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There are two separate things happening at the same time. The idea that a small number of individuals whose psyche does not match with the cultural norm of the genetic gender of their birth is completely predictable and reasonable. This group existed long before hormone treatments and certainly surgery were available. These folks benefit from transitioning their bodies to match their mindset which corresponds to the cultural norm of the opposite genetic gender.

As a separate issue, in the recent past gender fluidity has entered the mainstream as a fad or trend and a numerically much larger group of young people wonder about their place on the ever widening spectrum of "options". This group (which may be difficult to distinguish from the other at first glance) absolutely does not ultimately benefit from irreversible treatment. This group is making more headlines as regretting their treatment at this point.
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

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LuckyR wrote: April 26th, 2023, 2:59 am There are two separate things happening at the same time. The idea that a small number of individuals whose psyche does not match with the cultural norm of the genetic gender of their birth is completely predictable and reasonable. This group existed long before hormone treatments and certainly surgery were available. These folks benefit from transitioning their bodies to match their mindset which corresponds to the cultural norm of the opposite genetic gender.

As a separate issue, in the recent past gender fluidity has entered the mainstream as a fad or trend and a numerically much larger group of young people wonder about their place on the ever widening spectrum of "options". This group (which may be difficult to distinguish from the other at first glance) absolutely does not ultimately benefit from irreversible treatment. This group is making more headlines as regretting their treatment at this point.
I agree that the situation is complex, but as we are talking about sexism, I think that my emphasis that women are being discriminated in favour of biological males identifying as women as the most important aspect.

The second aspect is that social norms of gender are mostly stereotypes, which to a large degree have been overcome in Western society, although conservatives tend to hold on to them. My son had hair down to the middle of his back and his girlfriend wore clothing and a haircut that was gender neutral, which just shows that here at least, in Germany, the stereotypes are mostly upheld by elderly people, and when I see young people, I see a wide diversity of appearances. The freedom to alter your appearance has generally been accepted, and the number of enhanced breasts, lips, noses etc., or faces treated with Botox that we encounter on our way around the shops is considerable, and completely within the rights of anybody wishing to do so. We had a decade of Goth and seem to have moved on from that, tattoos are increasingly spread even to the face, and we might raise our eyebrows at what motives are being eternalised, but again, if that is what they want, okay.

The problem arises when we hear about the rise in the number of children in anglophone countries, with psychiatric diagnoses, autism, and numerous other problems, who are encouraged to undergo life-changing medication and/or surgery, because the trans identity has become a fad, or a hip thing to do. The cosmetic changes are one thing but encouraging extremely volatile young people to destroy their biological functions, with a danger of sterility, lack of sensation and worse side-effects, including infection and even death, is another. It is especially true when a transition is televised and a growing suspicion spreads, that this person is being exploited. When “accepting oneself” necessitates such measures, and it becomes clear that people are making a profit from it, you can’t help being sceptical. You start questioning the whole argumentation promoting transition and you discover discrepancies.

The problem with these “options,” as with most freedoms, they cost something, but people think if the monetary cost is settled by medical insurance of some kind, that is it. The fact that medication is needed permanently to keep up appearances, that surgery requires long-term follow-up treatment, and that the social situation after transitioning can remain, or become a cause of depression and crisis, and therefore not helped in any way, is suppressed. We prevent people jumping off roofs, jumping in front of trains, being ripped off by fraudsters, or other forms of self-harm, because it is common sense we say, but we seem to have put this away, and encourage self-harm if there is money to be made. We are continually being exploited, and medication and surgery are lucrative sources of income.

I see this in the context of sexism, as a homophobic movement, which tries to make homosexuals appear straight by changing their appearance. Non-conforming women seem to have more freedom than men without involving medication or surgery, although some surgically change their appearance. Non-conforming men have issues that in the past were put down to effeminacy or camp behaviour, and they were stamped as “sodomites,” and tarred as paedophiles, despite there not necessarily being a link. But to overcome this stigma, some have identified as women, despite the fact that homosexual males are often indisputably masculine. The attempt to identify fully as women, despite remaining fully equipped as men, infringes on the feelings of women, but these are considered secondary.
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

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Stoppelmann wrote: April 26th, 2023, 1:12 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 12:30 am Stoppelman, if you do not understand something, such as transsexualism, I suggest you abstain from taking about it. Almost everything you said about transsexuals was wrong, not only according to medicine, but the transpeople I have known. It's quite possible that you have met a number of them without having a clue. Not all are so easy to clock, although if you work in HR for long enough, you find out who's who at the zoo. I never once met a trans that pranced. Never. I have seen drag queens and twinks prance, but not transpeople. Most can't tell the difference ... right?
Transactivism isn’t about transsexuals, of which I knew several in the 1990s, and who were trying desperately not to appear as anything but women or men. They wanted to be judged by their abilities, not by their appearance, and had enough issues with that because women already had a disadvantage, and identifying as one made them subject to that disadvantage. I worked in healthcare as a nurse, which many men who knew about my past in the army and doing physical work in recovery couldn’t get to grips with. That is why I have a huge sympathy for women and those who identify fully with that gender.

What we are seeing though is quite different, especially amongst young men identifying as women. They flaunt their preference in a way that many women regard as a caricature and tend to support silencing women voicing their concerns. The concerns of women are very real, and not the hyped-up things that transactivists claim. The worries of women are that if a man has no requirement to qualify their claim that they are women, it opens the door wide for those people who will misuse the system, and we already have multiple instances of this happening. It opens the door to areas where women are vulnerable, where they are able to be with other women with similar concerns, similar health issues, similar experience of male violence, and where they can recover from trauma. This is all women want, but it is being taken from them in the name of inclusivity.
These are issues that you did not raise before. If you did, you might have had a different reaction. Talk about transpeople "prancing" is a whole other matter an inappropriate cliché based on misidentification between trans and rag.

Basically, you have two exclusively female zones under contention - sport and support. I would never suggest that transsexuals be given free entry to these zones. In sport, it's well documented that hormones and surgery do not change skeletal or initial muscle development. The pro arguments I see gloss over this, speaking of other inequalities such as wealth, training facilities and equipment. As for women's spaces, it's odd that transwomen would seek support there. Trans problems tend to be so much more complex and painful than those of natural women, that there's no way they could find understanding. This does not diminish the problems women face today (nor, increasingly, men) but the trans suicide rate is so extreme that, if it applied to any other group, there would be a public outcry - another reason not to misrepresent them as "prancing". They have it hard enough.

Stoppelmann wrote: April 26th, 2023, 1:12 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 12:30 am I think the whole non-binary trend is a rebellion against the structure of gender roles, and there is much to rebel against for those who don't fit, due to the absurd levels of exclusion and ostracism for simply existing. I think there is also an element of anger and hostility at having hope ripped away by older generations.

More than anything, it reminds me of guys in the 60s growing their hair long. Man, did that cause a effing stink! The media, of course, cannot differentiate between transpeople and genderqueer people because the boundaries are blurred and it would take time and effort. Same can be said for most people sticking their nose into other people's business online.

The media too should abstain from speaking about that which they do not understand, but I suppose the idea of journalists showing that level of discipline and understanding is laughable. An even bigger trend than non-binary is celibacy, but you don't read about that because "sex sells".
This isn’t only about rebellion, but even if it were, why do women have to suffer the removal of their status as women? Women are adult human females, trans women are different, which is why they have the word trans in front of women. People have a right to rebel, but the do not have the right to infringe on other people’s rights when doing so.

So the people sticking their noses into other people’s business are the transactivists who close down any women’s event where exclusively biological women are invited. It is the transactivists that put up signs with insulting phrases, such as s*ck my trans c*ck, and other profanities. Women want to speak openly, but it isn’t allowed, and any criticism of gender ideology is described as hate. Freedom of speech allows criticism of ideas, but transactivism doesn’t.

So who is the one who does not understand something?
If you equate trans activists with transsexuals, that would explain why some of your statements are so wrong. By that logic, all left wingers are communists, all right wingers are fascists, all gays twerk in chaps, all men are rapists and all women are property thieves, blacks are uncivilised, Asians are cold and whites are psychopaths.
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

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Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 12:30 am Stoppelman, if you do not understand something, such as transsexualism, I suggest you abstain from taking about it. Almost everything you said about transsexuals was wrong, not only according to medicine, but the transpeople I have known. It's quite possible that you have met a number of them without having a clue. Not all are so easy to clock, although if you work in HR for long enough, you find out who's who at the zoo. I never once met a trans that pranced. Never. I have seen drag queens and twinks prance, but not transpeople. Most can't tell the difference ... right?

I think the whole non-binary trend is a rebellion against the structure of gender roles, and there is much to rebel against for those who don't fit, due to the absurd levels of exclusion and ostracism for simply existing. I think there is also an element of anger and hostility at having hope ripped away by older generations.

More than anything, it reminds me of guys in the 60s growing their hair long. Man, did that cause a effing stink! The media, of course, cannot differentiate between transpeople and genderqueer people because the boundaries are blurred and it would take time and effort. Same can be said for most people sticking their nose into other people's business online.

The media too should abstain from speaking about that which they do not understand, but I suppose the idea of journalists showing that level of discipline and understanding is laughable. An even bigger trend than non-binary is celibacy, but you don't read about that because "sex sells".
The non-binary trend is interesting because it doesn't necessarily involve altering one's body, although some people do have some medical interventions to enable them to feel more at ease with their bodies. Non-binary fluidity is a radical approach to gender. It has existed in most cultures in the form of androgyny, such as in the idea of the two-spirit people. Some people have conceived of a gender continuum, or even the idea of genders apart from the two.

Musicians and other performers have played around with gender, ranging from David Bowie, Boy George to Lady Gaga, to the photographer, Del le Grace Volcano. Gender shapeshifting has also featured in fantasy fiction by authors such as Ursula L Gunn and Marian Zimmer Bradley. Virginia Woff's 'Orlando' was also an important statement about gender and androgyny.
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

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JackDaydream wrote: April 26th, 2023, 6:34 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 12:30 am Stoppelman, if you do not understand something, such as transsexualism, I suggest you abstain from taking about it. Almost everything you said about transsexuals was wrong, not only according to medicine, but the transpeople I have known. It's quite possible that you have met a number of them without having a clue. Not all are so easy to clock, although if you work in HR for long enough, you find out who's who at the zoo. I never once met a trans that pranced. Never. I have seen drag queens and twinks prance, but not transpeople. Most can't tell the difference ... right?

I think the whole non-binary trend is a rebellion against the structure of gender roles, and there is much to rebel against for those who don't fit, due to the absurd levels of exclusion and ostracism for simply existing. I think there is also an element of anger and hostility at having hope ripped away by older generations.

More than anything, it reminds me of guys in the 60s growing their hair long. Man, did that cause a effing stink! The media, of course, cannot differentiate between transpeople and genderqueer people because the boundaries are blurred and it would take time and effort. Same can be said for most people sticking their nose into other people's business online.

The media too should abstain from speaking about that which they do not understand, but I suppose the idea of journalists showing that level of discipline and understanding is laughable. An even bigger trend than non-binary is celibacy, but you don't read about that because "sex sells".
The non-binary trend is interesting because it doesn't necessarily involve altering one's body, although some people do have some medical interventions to enable them to feel more at ease with their bodies. Non-binary fluidity is a radical approach to gender. It has existed in most cultures in the form of androgyny, such as in the idea of the two-spirit people. Some people have conceived of a gender continuum, or even the idea of genders apart from the two.

Musicians and other performers have played around with gender, ranging from David Bowie, Boy George to Lady Gaga, to the photographer, Del le Grace Volcano. Gender shapeshifting has also featured in fantasy fiction by authors such as Ursula L Gunn and Marian Zimmer Bradley. Virginia Woff's 'Orlando' was also an important statement about gender and androgyny.
Gender is one of the last taboos. In a sense, I am amused that this generation managed to find something to annoy the oldies with, even after all the previously broken taboos. The more serious aspect is the hostility engendered by extremists, which would make things much harder for the quiet ones just trying to live their lives - and those lives are surely hard enough. Would any of us like to be transsexually inclined, to have to wrestle with those demons? Any volunteers? :lol:

I suppose moderates suffering for the sins of extremists is nothing new. Moderate Muslims and Christians would know the feeling well. Part of the problem is the media's tendency to reduce everything to stereotypes, which creates more hostility and division.
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JackDaydream
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

Post by JackDaydream »

Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 6:41 am
JackDaydream wrote: April 26th, 2023, 6:34 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 12:30 am Stoppelman, if you do not understand something, such as transsexualism, I suggest you abstain from taking about it. Almost everything you said about transsexuals was wrong, not only according to medicine, but the transpeople I have known. It's quite possible that you have met a number of them without having a clue. Not all are so easy to clock, although if you work in HR for long enough, you find out who's who at the zoo. I never once met a trans that pranced. Never. I have seen drag queens and twinks prance, but not transpeople. Most can't tell the difference ... right?

I think the whole non-binary trend is a rebellion against the structure of gender roles, and there is much to rebel against for those who don't fit, due to the absurd levels of exclusion and ostracism for simply existing. I think there is also an element of anger and hostility at having hope ripped away by older generations.

More than anything, it reminds me of guys in the 60s growing their hair long. Man, did that cause a effing stink! The media, of course, cannot differentiate between transpeople and genderqueer people because the boundaries are blurred and it would take time and effort. Same can be said for most people sticking their nose into other people's business online.

The media too should abstain from speaking about that which they do not understand, but I suppose the idea of journalists showing that level of discipline and understanding is laughable. An even bigger trend than non-binary is celibacy, but you don't read about that because "sex sells".
The non-binary trend is interesting because it doesn't necessarily involve altering one's body, although some people do have some medical interventions to enable them to feel more at ease with their bodies. Non-binary fluidity is a radical approach to gender. It has existed in most cultures in the form of androgyny, such as in the idea of the two-spirit people. Some people have conceived of a gender continuum, or even the idea of genders apart from the two.

Musicians and other performers have played around with gender, ranging from David Bowie, Boy George to Lady Gaga, to the photographer, Del le Grace Volcano. Gender shapeshifting has also featured in fantasy fiction by authors such as Ursula L Gunn and Marian Zimmer Bradley. Virginia Woff's 'Orlando' was also an important statement about gender and androgyny.
Gender is one of the last taboos. In a sense, I am amused that this generation managed to find something to annoy the oldies with, even after all the previously broken taboos. The more serious aspect is the hostility engendered by extremists, which would make things much harder for the quiet ones just trying to live their lives - and those lives are surely hard enough. Would any of us like to be transsexually inclined, to have to wrestle with those demons? Any volunteers? :lol:

I suppose moderates suffering for the sins of extremists is nothing new. Moderate Muslims and Christians would know the feeling well. Part of the problem is the media's tendency to reduce everything to stereotypes, which creates more hostility and division.
In some ways, gender has involved taboo and is different from race because it is related the expression of sexuality. It is also less possible to avoid thinking about gender because the male/female division occurs in almost every aspect of life. It is about reproductive roles but involves so much performance. There has been the power imbalance between women and men going back to the development of the patriarchy. The success of the women's liberation movement is not surprising as roughly half the population are female, but that doesn't mean that misogyny has vanished completely and sexism can be subtle.

Feminism has been extremely influential in rethinking gender roles. While it has been important for women it also gave rise to men's studies, such as the work of Andew Bly, 'Iron John' on the male stereotype and what it means to be a man.

The relationship between feminism and transgender is complicated, with some embracing it others being opposed to it,:just as the relationship between the gay and transgender communities. Sometimes the term LGBTIQ+ is used as an umbrella term but it would be a mistake to view it as one big happy family as there are many tensions.

Transsexuals vary from those who tell their stories to those who 'pass' as invisible after transitioning, with only people from the past and people close to them knowing their past. Those who oppose trans individuals often don't take into account the suffering of gender dysphoria and transitioning, as well as coping with others' hostility.

It is likely that the media and the internet are influential in awareness of trans issues, activism and hostility. Also, ideals about the body are perpetuated in this way. In particular, there is a growing movement of teenage girls identifying as trans and binary. An interesting comparison can be made with anorexia, which has sometimes been seen as connected to the rejection of the female body stereotype. I have worked with people witn eating disorders, mostly female, and it would probably be too simplistic to generalise about anorexia and the rejection of femininity but it definitely seems an important theme in the lives of some people who have developed eating disorders.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: April 25th, 2023, 2:00 pm Does sexism exist and to what extent does it matter ethically?
My understanding of sexism is that it is a form of discrimination, like racism, and so forth. Sexism is discrimination against a person* on grounds of their sex/gender. Being discrimination, it is wrong (and illegal, in some civilised countries), so the answer to your question is that it does matter ethically.



* — the victims of sexism are invariably women, but in theory, anyone could be the victim of sexism. In practice, men are vanishingly unlikely to suffer, but the recent emergence of anti-trans-sexual feeling — and JK Rowling's Sisters of Hatred — is a good example of how this form of discrimination might affect more people than it used to.

Perhaps the most important point to take away from this topic is that the problem is discrimination, of whatever sort or kind. It might be sexism or racism, or it might be focussed on age, disability, religion, politics, or even football-team allegiance. However we carve it up, the complete picture includes all forms of discrimination.

Oh, and discrimination is targetting a (minority?) community instead of the actual individuals involved. A simple example: if I am burgled by a woman, it's fine, correct, and truthful to call that woman a "thief". But if I then go farther, and claim that all women are "thieving *!!#%%**s", that is discrimination.
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

Post by Stoppelmann »

Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 6:24 am If you equate trans activists with transsexuals, that would explain why some of your statements are so wrong. By that logic, all left wingers are communists, all right wingers are fascists, all gays twerk in chaps, all men are rapists and all women are property thieves, blacks are uncivilised, Asians are cold and whites are psychopaths.
I didn't equate anyone with anyone else, but speaking about sexism and bringing transgender into it, as Jack did, must allow me to mention the fact that transactivists are silencing women as I have stated. It is a power struggle, as I stated, and those who get online with it and make excuses for these people, are aiding and abetting.

The people who lend themselves as role models, especially the type who have been hyped like Dylan Mulvaney or Jordan Gray, prance about and generally make fun of women. Jordan Gray's song, "Better than you," was a typical example. Of course, you can say it was comedy, but it was listed as an important message in the media.
“Find someone who makes you realise three things:
One, that home is not a place, but a feeling.
Two, that time is not measured by a clock, but by moments.
And three, that heartbeats are not heard, but felt and shared.”
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

Post by Good_Egg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 26th, 2023, 7:56 am
JackDaydream wrote: April 25th, 2023, 2:00 pm Does sexism exist and to what extent does it matter ethically?
My understanding of sexism is that it is a form of discrimination, like racism, and so forth. Sexism is discrimination against a person on grounds of their sex/gender. Being discrimination, it is wrong (and illegal, in some civilised countries), so the answer to your question is that it does matter ethically.
My understanding of sexism is that it is a form of prejudice, like racism and so forth.

Prejudice is inevitable. It is a form of short-cut thinking, making inferences that are not guaranteed to be correct, but that purport to have a better-than-50% success rate.

Examples would include thinking that women are less likely to be violent, more likely to be empathetic, less likely to be able to read a map, have less career ambition , etc.

It seems to me that you do wrong to an individual if you cling to negative prejudices about them in the face of contrary evidence. This is the ethical element.

Unfortunately, it is greatly exaggerated in some quarters.
"Opinions are fiercest.. ..when the evidence to support or refute them is weakest" - Druin Burch
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JackDaydream
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Re: What is Sexism and Does it Matter Ethically?

Post by JackDaydream »

Stoppelmann wrote: April 26th, 2023, 9:31 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 26th, 2023, 6:24 am If you equate trans activists with transsexuals, that would explain why some of your statements are so wrong. By that logic, all left wingers are communists, all right wingers are fascists, all gays twerk in chaps, all men are rapists and all women are property thieves, blacks are uncivilised, Asians are cold and whites are psychopaths.
I didn't equate anyone with anyone else, but speaking about sexism and bringing transgender into it, as Jack did, must allow me to mention the fact that transactivists are silencing women as I have stated. It is a power struggle, as I stated, and those who get online with it and make excuses for these people, are aiding and abetting.

The people who lend themselves as role models, especially the type who have been hyped like Dylan Mulvaney or Jordan Gray, prance about and generally make fun of women. Jordan Gray's song, "Better than you," was a typical example. Of course, you can say it was comedy, but it was listed as an important message in the media.
It may be an exaggeration to say that women are being silenced. There have always been issues around transwomen in women's spaces. That is not new but may have been exacerbated by the media. There has been a recent ban on transwomen in athletics. Of course, it will only affect a small minority of transwomen because the majority are not participating in athletics. Some of the issues are political cultural wars, while the majority of transgender people are wishing to simply live peacefully in their chosen gender identities.
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