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Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
#442309
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
User avatar
By LuckyR
#442364
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes wrote: December 27th, 2007, 4:26 pm The Clarity Of Amorality
by Scott Hughes

Morality consists of moral values used to judge conduct, events, and people in general. It refers to the way people try to universally categorize human conduct as right or wrong, or good or bad.

Morality originated from religion. In the earlier days of human civilization, the lack of telecommunications and lack of fast transportation separated humankind into small, isolated communities. As a result the religion in each one of these communities would dominate the community. Since those isolated communities had little contact with other cultures and religious beliefs, they took their own religion as simple truth.

However, as the world has globalized, the different communities have come into more and more contact with each other and have begun mixing. With multiple religions in the same society, the society could no longer use a single religion as its law and value system. As a result, society developed secular laws and values that applied independent of any given person's religion.

Naturally, society derived its new secular values and codes of conduct from its religious values. For the most part, it just rephrased the religious commandments and values from the dominant religions in more secularized terms. The "sinful" became the "immoral."

Developments in science also have led to more secularization of society because science can more reliably explain what people would otherwise rely on religion to explain. Also, people questioned their own religion more once they came into contact with other religions.

However, the archaic idea of morality remains. Even many so-called atheists talk as though some metaphysically universal set of values exist to determine the goodness or badness of people or actions. They do that by referring to people and actions as morally good or bad.

Still, when a person makes a moral statement nowadays they do not usually mean anything inherently religious. They just use the archaic and oversimplified moral terms to express an otherwise amoral sentiment. They might use the moral terms to express any of a variety of amoral sentiments, such as a personal taste, a recommendation, a social value, or so on.

For example, when a person says the moral statement, "eating dogs is morally wrong," they might mean the amoral statement, "eating dogs disgusts me." When a person says, "doing drugs is immoral," they might mean, "doing drugs will cause you more trouble than pleasure." When a person says, "breaking the law is morally bad," they might mean, "if you break the law, it will probably result in very unpleasant consequences for you." When a person says the moral statement, "you should go to work on time," they may just mean that amoral statement, "I recommend that you go to work on time."

Using the moral terms, rather than saying specifically what one means, lacks clarity. When a person calls a certain action immoral, we do not know what they mean exactly. Do they mean the action disgusts them? Do they mean they dislike it? Do they mean it would hurt them? Do they mean it would hurt the person who does it? Do they mean their religion forbids it? We can try to figure out what they mean by the context, but they can also just specify it by using amoral terminology.

We can more clearly express ourselves by specifying what we mean in secular and descriptive ways, rather than in general moral terms. Consider giving up morality due to its lack of clarity. Instead of making moral prescriptions, consider making amorally descriptive statements.

Whatever you do, good luck and have fun!

About the author: Scott Hughes owns and manages [url=http://onlinephilosophyclub.com]Online Philosophy Club[/url] and the [url=http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/]Philosophy Forums[/url].

Please post any comments or questions that you have about the preceding article.
Actually in hunter-gatherer times, "religion" was animism, not theism so wasn't based on the rules of gods. Of course humans have always had personal moral codes with which to base social behavior decisions upon. We still do today. Naturally hubris (in some individuals) encouraged them to attempt to hold others to their own personal moral codes thus societal ethical standards were created.
By Good_Egg
#442441
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes wrote: December 27th, 2007, 4:26 pm Morality originated from religion.
This seems to me an unjustified statement. "Religion" is an abstraction from particular religions which were founded or originated at specific times by specific people.

It seems to me that one has to believe that either:

A) somebodyor a few somebodies at some time first came up with the idea of morality as part of their religion, and everybody else got the idea by a chain of communication from that one or few founders, or

B) moral thinking is in some sense part of human nature, so that such ideas have occurred to multiple people in multiple different cultures.

Seems to me that the right answer is obviously B).
On the basis that as far as we know whenever anybody has crossed the sea and discovered another culture, they have found some form of morality as part of that culture. Even though that culture is ignorant of the traveller's own religion.

Such origins are of course lost in the mists of pre-history, but it seems reasonable to suppose that the unrecorded "first contacts" are similar to the more recent ones that we know more about.
For example, when a person says the moral statement, "eating dogs is morally wrong," they might mean the amoral statement, "eating dogs disgusts me."
If you're saying that some people sometimes say one thing and mean another, few would disagree.

But if you're saying that everybody who says "eating dogs is morally wrong" necessarily means "eating dogs disgusts me", then that is clearly false. It is perfectly possible to say without contradiction "eating dogs disgusts me, but I don't believe it to be morally wrong". Or conversely "I experience no feelings of disgust at the thought of eating a dog but nonetheless consider it to be morally wrong because dogs are sentient".

You've stated "they might mean", implying that some do, but your conclusion
We can more clearly express ourselves by specifying what we mean in secular and descriptive ways, rather than in general moral terms."
only follows if all do, if anyone uttering a prescriptive moral statement "really" means a descriptive statement.

This seems a basic error.

For example, does someone who says "Consider giving up morality" really mean "You should give up morality" ?

It's quite possible that some might mean that, but that doesn't mean that the statement can only possibly mean that...
By AlonsoAcevesMx
#467826
Have you considered that some moral views have developed in societies where religion is not the primary axis of ethics? We can find moral rules and regulations (born from moral notions) in aboriginal societies. Perhaps morality is not necessarily a religious outcome, but rather a consequence of societal interaction and the need for regulation, based on a shared set of beliefs.
#467834
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes (in 2007) wrote: December 27th, 2007, 4:26 pmMorality originated from religion. In the earlier days of human civilization, the lack of telecommunications and lack of fast transportation separated humankind into small, isolated communities. As a result the religion in each one of these communities would dominate the community. Since those isolated communities had little contact with other cultures and religious beliefs, they took their own religion as simple truth.
AlonsoAcevesMx wrote: September 12th, 2024, 12:49 pm some moral views have developed in societies where religion is not the primary axis of ethics?
Can you give some specific examples of regions/cities (a.k.a. societies) where concepts of morality/immorality/sinfulness didn't historically come primarily from religion?

Eckhart Aurelius Hughes (in 2007) wrote: December 27th, 2007, 4:26 pm We can find moral rules and regulations (born from moral notions) in aboriginal societies.
Huh? Historically, all societies were aboriginal societies. :?

All immigrants were natives (i.e. non-immigrants) before they first immigrated. That's true by definition.


With love,
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
By AlonsoAcevesMx
#467843
You are right in your definition of Aboriginal. I was trying to use the term in the Western context of less developed societies, but I realize now that was a poor choice of words.

Instead, I think of Confucianism as a clear example of a system of regulations and moral values that didn't emphasize religion as its source, but rather political stability.

Another example that comes to mind is the pre-Hispanic Aimara and Quechua people. They valued their connection to the cosmos, but didn't follow a set of rules imposed by a deity. Instead, they focused on the interconnected relationship between Pachamama (Mother Nature) and human beings.
By Belinda
#467861
AlonsoAcevesMx wrote: September 12th, 2024, 8:49 pm You are right in your definition of Aboriginal. I was trying to use the term in the Western context of less developed societies, but I realize now that was a poor choice of words.

Instead, I think of Confucianism as a clear example of a system of regulations and moral values that didn't emphasize religion as its source, but rather political stability.

Another example that comes to mind is the pre-Hispanic Aimara and Quechua people. They valued their connection to the cosmos, but didn't follow a set of rules imposed by a deity. Instead, they focused on the interconnected relationship between Pachamama (Mother Nature) and human beings.
Yes, but I think of both Confucianism and Daoism as different means to the end of bringing the warring Chinese states into a state of peace. World class religions of which Confucianism and Daoism are examples do just that-------they unite . Please see also Muhammad and his inspiration as to how to unite warring Arabian states. Also Constantine and his endorsement of Pauline Christianity to be a unifying force within his own empire.
Location: UK
#467873
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes (in 2007) wrote: December 27th, 2007, 4:26 pmMorality originated from religion. In the earlier days of human civilization, the lack of telecommunications and lack of fast transportation separated humankind into small, isolated communities. As a result the religion in each one of these communities would dominate the community. Since those isolated communities had little contact with other cultures and religious beliefs, they took their own religion as simple truth.
AlonsoAcevesMx wrote: September 12th, 2024, 12:49 pm some moral views have developed in societies where religion [was never] the primary axis of ethics?
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes wrote: September 12th, 2024, 5:50 pm Can you give some specific examples of regions/cities (a.k.a. societies) where concepts of morality/immorality/sinfulness didn't historically come primarily from religion?
AlonsoAcevesMx wrote: September 12th, 2024, 8:49 pm I think of Confucianism as a clear example of a system of regulations and moral values that didn't emphasize religion as [...]
I'm not asking for you to give an example of a system doesn't emphasize religion, or that doesn't emphasis religion as its source.

If that was the question, then it would have an obvious answer: Eckhart-Aurelius-Hughesian-ism.

Instead, I am asking for a location. It sounds like you are saying China is an alleged example of a place where the aboriginal/native people/societies were never religious? Is that correct?


AlonsoAcevesMx wrote: September 12th, 2024, 8:49 pm the pre-Hispanic Aimara and Quechua people. They valued their connection to the cosmos, [...] they focused on the interconnected relationship between Pachamama (Mother Nature) and human beings.
Interesting. Can you elaborate much more for me on their shared views and culture particularly in regard to any shared beliefs or rituals regarding the nature of reality, of evolution, of the way the universe/reality works at the smallest and biggest of scales (e.g. what was their version of quantum mechanics, general relativity, the Bang Bang Theory, etc.)?

How would they define "cosmos"? What did they believe their relationship was to it? Did they have any rituals in relation to that? Did they have any rituals at all?

Do you have any good book recommendations where I can learn more about that, with enjoyment and non-boringness being more important to me than informativeness? (I'd rather learn a little less and enjoy reading it, then learn even more facts but in a boring way.) Just for rough reference of what I like in that genre, I've read the Chinese text the Tao Te Ching multiple times and very much like it. I've also read the Dhammapada from Buddhism and liked that. Needless to say, I've read a lot of books from the Greek stoics too and loved those, most notably of course Marcus Aurelius's journal, "Meditations".


With love,
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
a.k.a. Scott
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
By Good_Egg
#468138
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes wrote: September 13th, 2024, 12:58 pm
AlonsoAcevesMx wrote: September 12th, 2024, 8:49 pm I think of Confucianism as a clear example of a system of regulations and moral values that didn't emphasize religion as [...]
I'm not asking for you to give an example of a system doesn't emphasize religion, or that doesn't emphasis religion as its source.

If that was the question, then it would have an obvious answer: Eckhart-Aurelius-Hughesian-ism.

Instead, I am asking for a location. It sounds like you are saying China is an alleged example of a place where the aboriginal/native people/societies were never religious? Is that correct?
AlonsoAcevesMx wrote: September 12th, 2024, 8:49 pm the pre-Hispanic Aimara and Quechua people. They valued their connection to the cosmos, [...] they focused on the interconnected relationship between Pachamama (Mother Nature) and human beings.
Interesting.
Seems to me that the religion of our Western culture has some aspects in common with all religions, some aspects that are common to the Middle Eastern faiths (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) and some peculiarities of its own. So we need to be a bit careful in our interpretation of other religions.

It's not that there is a place where the native peoples have no religion at all. It's that their religion doesn't fit the mould of our religion very well.

The West is a post-Christian society. Our religion has doctrines and rituals, seen as dictated by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, whom we no longer believe to be entirely factual.

Other peoples don't just have different doctrines and rituals. They believe differently. Their structure and approach can be different as well as the content being different.

I've no expertise in other religions, knowing just enough to be wary of trying to force the religion of others into the western mould.
User avatar
By Lagayascienza
#468140
We in the West have tended to look at religion through our western colored glasses. I'm not very familar with the cultures of other native peoples, but to early European settlers in my own country, Australia, it seemed that the Australian Aborigines had no religion. But nothing could have been further from the truth. It's just that the Europeans were unable to see anyting as religion unless it was a monotheism like Christianity. However, the Australian Aborigines are the oldest living culture on earth and their religion is tied up with the land and the spirits who are thought to have created it and inhabit it. But to early European Christian settlers, this was not religion because it didn't look like theirs. They felt it imperative to instill/impose Christianity on the Australian Aborigines. Fortunately, although the Aboriginal population was decimated, Aboriginal culture was not destroyed.

I doubt there are any indigenous human cultures that lacked religion. Like morality, some form of religion seems to be universal. It seems that core human moral values evolved to foster cooperation within small bands of hunter-gatherers. Cooperation increased the chances of survival and the launching of genes into the future. Religion and morality depended on language and symbolism and they probably got tied up together very early as our species developed into its modern form with the development of language at least 70,000 yers ago. Australia's indigenous people have been in Australia for around 50,000 to 65,000 years. This makes theirs the oldest extant culture and religion on Earth so maybe we could learn something from them about the early form and development of morality and religion in our species.
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