Are monks selfish?

[Samhains]

A Zen Monk Saying is "Act from the self, not for the self" Does that sound selfish?

A Christian Monk would say " Love thy neighbour as thyself" self applys, to matter,

because it is SELF that allows you to Act from the self, and not For the Self.

[Edward J. Bartek]

We are all born with a spiritual-rational-sensual potential, but are dominant in one of these. Still we are free to be dominant in any one of these, to harmonize with society. So idealy, the monk is a domianntly spiritual person, one who tends to be less sensual and rational. If his society is too sensual, he will reject it for the ascetic monastery. To do otherwise would be like a nun trying to live at the Playboy Club. She could do it, but with ulcers.

The monk is the reverse of being selfish, for the nature of all dominantly spiritual persons is to be altruistic, which means caring for others before oneself. It is the reverse of the sensual hedonstic person, for all his pleasure can only be selfish.

[Dewey]

Edward J. Bartek said:

“We are all born with a spiritual-rational-sensual potential, but are dominant in one of these. Still we are free to be dominant in any one of these, to harmonize with society. So idealy, the monk is a domianntly spiritual person, one who tends to be less sensual and rational. If his society is too sensual, he will reject it for the ascetic monastery. To do otherwise would be like a nun trying to live at the Playboy Club. She could do it, but with ulcers.”
“The monk is the reverse of being selfish, for the nature of all dominantly spiritual persons is to be altruistic, which means caring for others before oneself. It is the reverse of the sensual hedonstic person, for all his pleasure can only be selfish.”


Edward has a tidy theory here. Each of us is predominantly spiritual, predominantly rational, or predominantly sensual. That’s clear enough. Let’s play scientist and test it out on someone. How about me? Let’s see. I’m an atheist, watch CSPAN a lot, and am more preoccupied with arthritis than with pleasure. By the process of elimination I deduce that I’m predominantly rational. Just remember that, all of you out there, the next time you start to criticize one of my posts!

This is fun! My wife isn’t here now. Let’s find out what she is. She’s a devout Catholic, disproves the arguments in my posts all the time, and greatly enjoys it. Damn if she isn’t predominantly all three – spiritual, and rational, and sensual -- each more than the other!

Time to be serious. Edward claims that “all” predominantly spiritual folks tend to be unselfish. That’s a highly questionable generalization. Were the priests that molested all those children acting unselfishly? Were the Christian crusaders who massacred thousands of Jews and Moslems acting unselfishly? Are the evangelicals who denigrate other Christian denominations acting unselfishly?

My own theory is that we all start our lives equipped with pretty much the same nature. From then on we develop our individual natures according to how we perceive our experiences. (Don’t bother to disprove this theory. My wife will take care of it )

[mark black]

this is quite possibly the most stupid question possible.

[Dreamshift]

I agree with the poster before the last, we might be making generalizations here. But with no particular Monk sect to speak of, and just generalized ideal of what it is to be a monk, I guess that's all we'll do here. Personally I don't find monks selfish, just isolationalist, which isn't productive at the global market, but it would be wrong to deny someone the ability to remove themseleves from the system. Having said this, some Monk sects are quite controbutive to our lives, it was one monk who discovered micro evolution through experiementation with plants. I'm certian there are many more citations that could show how the life of a monk has produced good philosophy and science. Can we all live that way? not in the world today as it is with the population (we must have specialization to keep from having starving millions, maybe billions.) but its just fine for some of us to live like that. Are they selfish? no, but not likley as selfless as other lifestyles.

[Dewey]

mark black said: “this (“Are monks selfish?) is quite possibly the most stupid question possible.”

Mark, I looked at all of your posts in this forum. Some of them are flippant or derisive one-liners like this one: others are polite and contributive additions to the discussions. What, do you think, is your reason for submitting the one-liners?

[mark black]

dewey, imagine you were at a party and there were various groups of people scattered through the house and grounds engaged in conversations. it's difficult and embarassing enough attempting to join in, but frankly horrifying when time after time - it seems, the group breaks up and moves away - leaving your contribution hanging in the air. the question is at what point do you start throwing buns? i say sooner!

[Dreamshift]

Through your fear of being left out of the converstation you attack the question at hand? Don't worry about not feeling like a strong contribution, good discussions are through good listening. What your line does do is side track us and so we address your rather inflamatory comment. Better to be a quiet voice of reason, than a loud voice of hate. I know you mean well through your other posts, but leave those kinds out for the sake of the discussion. Its ok just to read the thread and not respond, I do it all the time.

[Dewey]

I know your feeling – all too well! A while back, I opened a new post in another forum. It was my best effort ever -- topical and very provocative. It has not drawn so much as a single response. That hurts my pride and I’m mad. But I nobly refrain from throwing buns at strangers. Do like I do, mark: take it out on your family or friends.

[Aquamarina]

Might this depend on the individual’s intention behind doing so? For example, one might choose to become a monk to in hopes of finding the most happiness possible in their life (so, could be seen as possibly selfish). One might choose to become a monk because they feel like this is the best way they can benefit the world (sounds unselfish). If one chooses to become a monk, it will likely cause some pain to those people who they were close to (such as family and friends who the individual in question was close with- if causing this pain is their motive, however unlikely, this could be seen as selfish). If a person chooses to become a monk so others will see them in a certain light, this could be seen as selfish. Perhaps this is a question best answered by individuals themselves? I think people choose to take on this lifestyle for various reasons, all with varying degrees of selfishness and unselfishness. After all, we cannot assume we know what others are thinking and feeling no matter how empathetic we are. We can ask them, and we can try to imagine (both of which can help us empathize more carefully) but we will never fully understand because we are not them. I think that it would be interesting to conduct such a poll (hoping that participants answered honestly, which I would hope they would given that they are monks! ) I myself came across this post because I have considered becoming a monk, and am asking myself the motive behind my thoughts. I have seen some of my motivations as unselfish, some as selfish, and some as a mixture of both. Given my basic understanding of the subject, I’d say that it could be unfair to assume that all individual monks are identical. Loving hearing the various responses to this question, very interesting!

[Sy Borg]

Aquamarina You are revisiting the minds of forum members from fifteen years ago, like entering a small time capsule.

I agree that it is a very tough call to accuse monks of being selfish. They are, like everyone else, trying to do what they want to do in life. To some extent, I see the question as "Some extroverts tend think that introversion is selfish". They forget that diversity in populations and division of labour are as necessary for human societies as they are for ants colonies.

Another way to frame the question: To what extent should western societies demand conformity from individuals for the greater wellbeing of the whole? Which conformities should be compulsory and which should be left left alone by authorities?

If poor old monks are considered to be selfish blighters, that leaves an awful lot of us as worthy of judgement.

Judgement. That leads us to Rome and the rise of the RC church. We are all sinners. But not really. Rather, we are sophisticated social and technological animals. We simply do what we do, largely driven by environment, as with other animals. Yes, we humans have a few added extras, but the basic principles of being an animal remain roughly the same.

Humanity en masse is not in control, and it never has been. Some like to think we are masters of our destiny. Of course they do. However, history shows that, en masse, we are no more in control than any other species. We can fiddle around the edges but the greater waves of history are out of our control - group dynamics, competition, Tragedies of the Commons, droughts, floods, storms, quakes, volcanoes, diseases, plagues, asteroids ...

Thus, any attempt to shame monks or anyone else into behaving a certain way is ultimately futile, with its only function being a social game, a la Berne.

[Anil G]

Monks had enlightened and does not consider material things as a source of happiness or success. A selfish person craves for things to achieve in life and for Monks, they had given up on everything which a selfish can have desire for. So, Monks are not selfish from my perspective. Monks do help others to find peace in life and enlighten the one seeks enlightenment.

[Samana Johann]

As for monks of the Buddha (who are considered as selfish by other religions), here an answer to it: AN 3.60: Sangarava Sutta — To Sangarava (sangham[dot]net/tipitaka/sut/an/03/sut[dot]an[dot]03[dot]060[dot]than)

[Samana Johann]

Might this depend on the individual’s intention behind doing so? For example, one might choose to become a monk to in hopes of finding the most happiness possible in their life (so, could be seen as possibly selfish). One might choose to become a monk because they feel like this is the best way they can benefit the world (sounds unselfish). If one chooses to become a monk, it will likely cause some pain to those people who they were close to (such as family and friends who the individual in question was close with- if causing this pain is their motive, however unlikely, this could be seen as selfish). If a person chooses to become a monk so others will see them in a certain light, this could be seen as selfish. Perhaps this is a question best answered by individuals themselves? I think people choose to take on this lifestyle for various reasons, all with varying degrees of selfishness and unselfishness. After all, we cannot assume we know what others are thinking and feeling no matter how empathetic we are. We can ask them, and we can try to imagine (both of which can help us empathize more carefully) but we will never fully understand because we are not them. I think that it would be interesting to conduct such a poll (hoping that participants answered honestly, which I would hope they would given that they are monks! ) I myself came across this post because I have considered becoming a monk, and am asking myself the motive behind my thoughts. I have seen some of my motivations as unselfish, some as selfish, and some as a mixture of both. Given my basic understanding of the subject, I’d say that it could be unfair to assume that all individual monks are identical. Loving hearing the various responses to this question, very interesting!

To have the feeling that best way could ever be just selfish, even if little ideas, can just arise if views aren't straightened yet, good householder. So what hinders him to go after the holy life, as it would be really unuseful selfish to waste away a seldom change, given the huge debts accumulated by it, if not going for highest, being given so much all the way, impossible to ever repay..