Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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LuckyR
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by LuckyR »

EricPH wrote: January 20th, 2022, 8:07 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 20th, 2022, 3:00 am
EricPH wrote: January 19th, 2022, 7:59 pm
WanderingGaze22 wrote: June 9th, 2021, 1:05 am anger is a sign you are weak,
The person who angers you, controls you. They make you feel things and do things you don't want to do.

On two occasions I have seen lads punch through windows and rip their arms open. The person who angered them, made them do it.
Very true. Though there are downsides to not expressing your emotions and keeping them contained.
True justice very rarely happens, and we can be left with feelings of anger. Does this anger help us to heal; or can it cause us more harm?

I listened to Glen Fielder tell his story in Manchester Cathedral. He had grown up with David Beckham, and they had both been signed up to play football with Leighton Orient. He had a life of fame and fortune ahead of him. Shortly after he went to a night club and was stabbed in the back and beaten up. He spent a year in hospital and has been paralysed from the waist down; he has been in a wheelchair for the last 27 years. They caught the man who did this, he served four years in prison, he was then able to walk out of prison on his own two feet, and justice had been served.

By this time, Glen had learned to drive a disabled taxi, he tracked down his assailant, and then stalked him with the intention of running him over. Glen saw an opportunity to run his attacker down, but something stopped him. He said he came to understand that true justice could not happen. Justice is not that two people should be crippled, rather, it is that neither of them should be crippled. He knew he could never turn back time. He came to understand that he had to let go of his hatred; if not, he would become worse than his assailant.

He said he has to live with two diseases, being crippled, and the greater disease was the hate burning away inside him. Forgiveness and letting go of the hatred was a gradual process for his own benefit, his wheelchair has been a daily reminder of the past injustice.

Glen goes round the country talking about the need to let go of anger, and striving to be the kind and caring person that you want to be
I have heard that sentiment described as drinking poison and waiting for the other guy to die.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by EricPH »

LuckyR wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:40 am
I have heard that sentiment described as drinking poison and waiting for the other guy to die.
Anger is like picking up a burning coal with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers you. The person who gets burnt the most is me. The longer we hold onto this burning coal, the hotter it becomes.

Often we don't get the opportunity to throw the burning coal and it burns away inside us. But anger has to go somewhere and we can take it out on those nearest to us or smash things, or punch walls and windows.

Learning to forgive; helps us to be the kind and caring person we want to be.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by LuckyR »

EricPH wrote: January 24th, 2022, 2:27 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:40 am
I have heard that sentiment described as drinking poison and waiting for the other guy to die.
Anger is like picking up a burning coal with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers you. The person who gets burnt the most is me. The longer we hold onto this burning coal, the hotter it becomes.

Often we don't get the opportunity to throw the burning coal and it burns away inside us. But anger has to go somewhere and we can take it out on those nearest to us or smash things, or punch walls and windows.

Learning to forgive; helps us to be the kind and caring person we want to be.
We are in agreement.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by GrayArea »

Scott wrote: March 23rd, 2008, 10:51 am [The following topic is featured as a leadup to the May philosophy book of the month discussion of Holding Fire.]

Do you think that anger, discompassion and hatred are usually symptoms of weakness? Why or why not?

If you know of any psychological studies into the matter, please post here about them.

Generally speaking, I think that anger, discompassion and hatred are signs of weakness and/or the self-perception of weakness.

Namely, I think people get frustrated by their own weakness, which makes them angry, discompassionate, and hateful and makes them more likely to resort to violence and other primitive and brutish techniques (not as a form of defense but as a means of offensive attack and control). When a person is socially weak, I believe the person will likely compensate by using the brutish techniques associated with anger, discompassion, and hatred.

Additionally, people who believe themselves to be weak will tend to have an inferiority complex, which is notorious for often resulting in excessive aggressiveness as a form of overcompensation, such as in the clichéd case of most schoolyard bullies.

In another example, consider the crazy "school shooters" who go to schools to shoot wildly at their classmates and usually kill themselves. Wouldn't you say that that extreme example of vengeful anger, discompassion, and hatred is a sign of severe weakness and the pathological self-perception of weakness.

In another example, if you back an animal into a corner, making it feel scared and weak, it will lash out violently and erratically, which in humans would be called anger, discompassion, or hatred.

In contrast, wouldn't you say that compassion is generally a sign of strength and clearheadedness? I would. Martin Luther King Jr. is one of the strongest historical figures I can think of, and I believe he is a great example of how genuine strength enables a person to act on their love and to influence society without resorting to the destructive use of offensive violence and judgmental vengeance associated with anger, discompassion and hatred?

What do you think?
I think that anger is a sign of strength precisely for the reason why you think anger is a sign of weakness—anger is when one denies the weakness that one knows is oneself. To not do anything about one's weakness is to me, true weakness. To be angry about it, and to actively be against it, is a sign of strength. Or at least a sign that one is discontent with their weakness and wants to overcome it.

However, anger isn't a sign of perfect strength either. I believe the perfect kind of strength stems on being emotionally unmoved by obstacles and weaknesses, while at the same time trying to overcome them. There is a difference between this and my definition of so-called "true weakness"—the latter is when one simply does not act against one's weaknesses. The prior is when one is not emotionally moved by them but still does act against them.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Scott wrote: March 23rd, 2008, 10:51 am

Do you think that anger, discompassion and hatred are usually symptoms of weakness?
Aversion (that harms others or oneself, or after it) is always weak and poor in all regards. Aversion from disagreement with decay, wishing to hold on or the gain of what actually can not be controlled, owned.

Yet there is a kind of aversion which isn't weak: called renounciation-distress, leading to an end of all aversion.
http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.137.than_en.html wrote:"And what are the six kinds of renunciation distress? The distress coming from the longing that arises in one who is filled with longing for the unexcelled liberations when — experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation — he sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change and he is filled with this longing: 'O when will I enter & remain in the dimension that the noble ones now enter & remain in?' This is called renunciation distress. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Scott wrote: March 23rd, 2008, 10:51 am Do you think that anger, discompassion and hatred are usually symptoms of weakness?

What do you think?
I think they are responses to fear — of 'the unknown'? — not necessarily "weakness".
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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GrayArea wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 4:04 am I think that anger is a sign of strength ... anger is when one denies the weakness that one knows is oneself.
If the weakness is real, then to deny it seems ... inappropriate. Acceptance seems more apposite. Denial is not "weakness", it is the opposite of acceptance. I'm not talking about acceptance as a weakness, perhaps like appeasement, but as a willingness to accept what is. I would describe the latter as strength, not weakness.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: October 30th, 2022, 12:21 pm
GrayArea wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 4:04 am I think that anger is a sign of strength ... anger is when one denies the weakness that one knows is oneself.
If the weakness is real, then to deny it seems ... inappropriate. Acceptance seems more apposite. Denial is not "weakness", it is the opposite of acceptance. I'm not talking about acceptance as a weakness, perhaps like appeasement, but as a willingness to accept what is. I would describe the latter as strength, not weakness.
When I say "denies the weakness", I do not mean refusing to accept the truth that one is weak, I mean "accepting the truth that you are weak, thus refusing to be weak any further". While I also think that acceptance of truth is strength, I still think the acceptance of current circumstances that makes one weak—is weakness.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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GrayArea wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 4:04 am I think that anger is a sign of strength ... anger is when one denies the weakness that one knows is oneself.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 30th, 2022, 12:21 pm If the weakness is real, then to deny it seems ... inappropriate. Acceptance seems more apposite. Denial is not "weakness", it is the opposite of acceptance. I'm not talking about acceptance as a weakness, perhaps like appeasement, but as a willingness to accept what is. I would describe the latter as strength, not weakness.
GrayArea wrote: October 31st, 2022, 1:11 pm When I say "denies the weakness", I do not mean refusing to accept the truth that one is weak, I mean "accepting the truth that you are weak, thus refusing to be weak any further". While I also think that acceptance of truth is strength, I still think the acceptance of current circumstances that makes one weak—is weakness.
I think the underlying truth to this little exchange is whether or not "current circumstances" are changeable or not. If not, then acceptance is the only possible and logical route to follow. If one's perceived 'weakness' can be changed or avoided, that would be different.

Is this the resolution on which we both agree? I suspect it is. 🙂
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 1st, 2022, 12:37 pm
GrayArea wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 4:04 am I think that anger is a sign of strength ... anger is when one denies the weakness that one knows is oneself.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 30th, 2022, 12:21 pm If the weakness is real, then to deny it seems ... inappropriate. Acceptance seems more apposite. Denial is not "weakness", it is the opposite of acceptance. I'm not talking about acceptance as a weakness, perhaps like appeasement, but as a willingness to accept what is. I would describe the latter as strength, not weakness.
GrayArea wrote: October 31st, 2022, 1:11 pm When I say "denies the weakness", I do not mean refusing to accept the truth that one is weak, I mean "accepting the truth that you are weak, thus refusing to be weak any further". While I also think that acceptance of truth is strength, I still think the acceptance of current circumstances that makes one weak—is weakness.
I think the underlying truth to this little exchange is whether or not "current circumstances" are changeable or not. If not, then acceptance is the only possible and logical route to follow. If one's perceived 'weakness' can be changed or avoided, that would be different.

Is this the resolution on which we both agree? I suspect it is. 🙂
I would say so, yep.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Scott wrote: March 23rd, 2008, 10:51 am
Generally speaking, I think that anger, discompassion and hatred are signs of weakness and/or the self-perception of weakness.

In another example, if you back an animal into a corner, making it feel scared and weak, it will lash out violently and erratically, which in humans would be called anger, discompassion, or hatred.
They are signs of weakness in humans. Tao Te Ching, I think this idea is attributed to him: if your enemy is choleric, irritate the heck out of him. Lack of emotional control is a weak spot in people. You could manipulate them by targeting their weakness. When anger overtakes a person, they lose the capacity to think rationally, and often would behave in such a way that they wish they didn't.

On the other hand, backing an animal into a corner is not a recommended behavior for humans because that is a situation in which the animals call their own instinct to deal with it. Animals act based on instincts -- their strength. If you want get mauled, go right ahead.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Elephant wrote: November 13th, 2022, 12:34 am ...if your enemy is choleric, irritate the heck out of him. Lack of emotional control is a weak spot in people. You could manipulate them by targeting their weakness. When anger overtakes a person, they lose the capacity to think rationally, and often would behave in such a way that they wish they didn't.
If someone lacks control, most of us would agree that improving that control would be a good idea. But should we really attack them for their deficiencies? Won't such attacks make them much less likely to pursue self-improvement? Most humans double down on their beliefs when they are attacked, so such policies don't achieve their intended aims?
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 13th, 2022, 1:16 pm
If someone lacks control, most of us would agree that improving that control would be a good idea. But should we really attack them for their deficiencies? Won't such attacks make them much less likely to pursue self-improvement? Most humans double down on their beliefs when they are attacked, so such policies don't achieve their intended aims?
I said enemy. If you have a habit of helping your enemy to become stronger -- whose definition is also given by the ancients who would talk about enemy -- Confucius and Tao Te Ching -- go right ahead.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 13th, 2022, 1:16 pm If someone lacks control, most of us would agree that improving that control would be a good idea. But should we really attack them for their deficiencies? Won't such attacks make them much less likely to pursue self-improvement? Most humans double down on their beliefs when they are attacked, so such policies don't achieve their intended aims?
Elephant wrote: November 13th, 2022, 1:55 pm I said enemy. If you have a habit of helping your enemy to become stronger -- whose definition is also given by the ancients who would talk about enemy -- Confucius and Tao Te Ching -- go right ahead.
If you have a habit of treating your opponents as enemies, please don't "go right ahead". Cultivating enmity isn't going to help anyone, least of all you, IMO.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Co-operative societies are the only ones that are truly successful.
Such qualities are strengths.
Societies which have rejected these values are not evident.
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