Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8267
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Repoman05 wrote: November 11th, 2019, 4:45 am From the title this seems more of a psychological question than a philosophical one. Note, both philosophy and psychology are pseudoscience. Psychology is a pseudo science of physiology and biology where as philosophy is a pseudoscience of mathematics.
Hmmm. Psychology is a significant subject whose study has been prevented by the struggle (maybe for funding?) to call itself a science, when it is not one. It deals with matters outside the bailiwick of science, covering human feelings, and the like. Stuff that's difficult to quantify and impossible to study via science. Subjective stuff.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
fionaimmodest
Posts: 24
Joined: March 23rd, 2020, 11:57 pm

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by fionaimmodest »

These are normal feelings anyone can feel. However, if it is hard for you to control, then these can become your weakness too.
Spyrith
Posts: 25
Joined: October 16th, 2019, 3:32 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Spyrith »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 16th, 2020, 12:48 pm
Repoman05 wrote: November 11th, 2019, 4:45 am From the title this seems more of a psychological question than a philosophical one. Note, both philosophy and psychology are pseudoscience. Psychology is a pseudo science of physiology and biology where as philosophy is a pseudoscience of mathematics.
Hmmm. Psychology is a significant subject whose study has been prevented by the struggle (maybe for funding?) to call itself a science, when it is not one. It deals with matters outside the bailiwick of science, covering human feelings, and the like. Stuff that's difficult to quantify and impossible to study via science. Subjective stuff.
I don't see how psychology can be called pseudoscience, it's like saying meteorology is also pseudoscience because it doesn't always produce accurate results.

Psychology is well and truly a science, since it provides many key insights into human behavior that have real, practical effects in everyday society. For instance, psychology plays a role in how a supermarket is laid out and creating walking paths for customers. Psychology also provides insights into choosing certain kinds of music for retail store to encourage people to stay longer in the store and buy more.

There are many, many, many other such examples and not just from retail.

People however don't consider psychology a science because it doesn't have the same predictive power as physics for instance. If you drop a ball from your hand, you can be 100% certain it will reach the ground.

With psychology, it's insights are never 100% certain to be X. Instead, you have something like "10-20% will do X if this happens" and most people don't like such variability in a science.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8267
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Spyrith wrote: March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 16th, 2020, 12:48 pm Psychology is a significant subject whose study has been prevented by the struggle (maybe for funding?) to call itself a science, when it is not one. It deals with matters outside the bailiwick of science, covering human feelings, and the like. Stuff that's difficult to quantify and impossible to study via science. Subjective stuff.
I don't see how psychology can be called pseudoscience
Neither do I. Psychology is not a science. How can it be? Nothing is repeatable. There are almost no rules. Its subjects mis-report or lie when interviewed. Psychology is a subject of huge importance, IMO, but it is not a science. It's much more difficult than science. The questions it tackles are more difficult to answer than those addressed by science. Science can test its theories by trying to falsify them. Psychology cannot.
Spyrith wrote: March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am Psychology is well and truly a science, since it provides many key insights into human behavior that have real, practical effects in everyday society. For instance, psychology plays a role in how a supermarket is laid out and creating walking paths for customers. Psychology also provides insights into choosing certain kinds of music for retail store to encourage people to stay longer in the store and buy more.
What you say glorifies psychology - and why not? 😉👍 - but it says nothing about whether psychology is, or even could be, a science.
Spyrith wrote: March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am People however don't consider psychology a science because it doesn't have the same predictive power as physics for instance.
This just adds to what I said above, when I outlined the differences between psychology and a science.
Spyrith wrote: March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am If you drop a ball from your hand, you can be 100% certain it will reach the ground.
Doesn't that depend on whether you are within a significant gravitational field? 😉 Nothing is certain.
Spyrith wrote: March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am With psychology, it's insights are never 100% certain to be X. Instead, you have something like "10-20% will do X if this happens" and most people don't like such variability in a science.
It isn't a question of whether we like it. Science, all science, has some basic ways of working that all sciences use. The type of variability that you describe is difficult for it to deal with. You'd need to fall back on statistics, and therefore constrained to viewing people only as crowds, in quantity, when what you really need is to focus on the individual. The study of humans in large number isn't really psychology, it's more like anthropology combined with statistics. And we all know that statistics is highly misleading - as in inapplicable - when applied to small numbers of people. Science cannot deal with real people, especially in small numbers, unless they can be forced into the role of impartial observer. For the purposes of psychology, people are participants, not observers, and they are partial, not impartial.

To say that psychology is not a science is not an insult. On the contrary, it is a compliment which ackowledges the importance of psychology, and also the inability of science to deal with the more complex of philosophical issues.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 16th, 2020, 12:18 pm
Repoman05 wrote: November 13th, 2019, 3:11 am You can bring on anger any time you like. It's an emotion that's completely at your disposal to summon or banish as you see fit.
Oh, I think you are badly mistaken if you think we humans can rationally summon and dismiss anger. An angry human is out of (rational) control, or something close to it. In this state, they cannot think or act rationally, except by coincidence. They certainly cannot dismiss their own anger, as you suggest they can. You are writing about Vulcans, not humans, I think. 🤔

Live long and prosper! 😉
You've never been angry and rational at the same time?

I agree with your questioning this ability to rationally summon and dismiss anger. I think one can think one's way to anger, but in general we are not machines that can produce anger via rationality or always get rid of it. Sometimes I can slowly dismiss the trigger that makes me anger by analysis, but not so often.

But one can certainly have any emotion and be rational.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8267
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: April 2nd, 2020, 6:37 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 16th, 2020, 12:18 pm

Oh, I think you are badly mistaken if you think we humans can rationally summon and dismiss anger. An angry human is out of (rational) control, or something close to it. In this state, they cannot think or act rationally, except by coincidence. They certainly cannot dismiss their own anger, as you suggest they can. You are writing about Vulcans, not humans, I think. 🤔

Live long and prosper! 😉
You've never been angry and rational at the same time?

I agree with your questioning this ability to rationally summon and dismiss anger. I think one can think one's way to anger, but in general we are not machines that can produce anger via rationality or always get rid of it. Sometimes I can slowly dismiss the trigger that makes me anger by analysis, but not so often.

But one can certainly have any emotion and be rational.
Seneca wrote:Surely no one would choose to hit a foe so hard as to have his hand get stuck in the wound and be unable to withdraw from the blow. But anger is a weapon of just this type.
An overpowering emotion such as anger over-rides and (temporarily, one hopes) submerges rationality. I don't believe the two can usefully coexist. If you arre rational and controlled, you are not angry. If you are angry and out of control, you are not rational.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 2nd, 2020, 1:39 pm
Seneca wrote:Surely no one would choose to hit a foe so hard as to have his hand get stuck in the wound and be unable to withdraw from the blow. But anger is a weapon of just this type.
To me this quote has so many unsupported assumptions it is almost meaningless to me. Anger is not a weapon, though one can use expressing anger as a weapon. So we have a specific use being conflated with the entire range of what happens when one is angry. Expressing or feeling anger is not always or even often like hitting a foe soe hard one's hand gets stuck in the wound. I have held a grudge and it has been like this, I suppose, but grudges are a fixed long term pattern which includes anger but also certain cognitive ideas and also certain types of denial. So again a possibility is being turned into a rule.
An overpowering emotion such as anger over-rides and (temporarily, one hopes) submerges rationality.
I do not usually experience anger as overpowering. Just as I do not experience the other emotions as always overpowering. Someoen would have to be being violent against me or someone I love for me to be overpowered by anger. I have had arguments where both I and the other person were angry- which could be heard in our tones of voice and this was commented on by others - and yet both or one of us, in these arguments, were rational. Emotions do not exclude reason. They can. Certainly if I am extremely angry I will be both less likely to form a reasoned argument and less likely to make a good one. But it has to be extreme anger, and again that likely involves some kind of physical attack or a long term dealing out unpleasance at me or someone I care about.

But anger unless in some extreme form need not eliminate reason. I have seen many debates where someone made perfect sense but was clearly angry. Just as one can make sense when afraid, happy, sad, feeling disgust or desire and so on.

I don't believe the two can usefully coexist. If you arre rational and controlled, you are not angry. If you are angry and out of control, you are not rational.
As an example amongst many I had a very heated discussion with a landlord who was not willing to make a woodstove more safe . At times he was very aggressive, made threats. I raised my voice, and one point I yelled at him to shut up and listen to me. I was extremely angry throughout the discussion, but I knew the topic well, I knew the set up was dangerous and i knew the law: he was responsible to see to it the heating in the house was safe. He actually came around once he could see I knew what I was talking about, even though I was almost snarling at times.

It's not a binary thing: presence of anger, no rationality. Rationality present, no anger. Sorry, that's not what reality is like. Yes, extreme anger will likely undermine the ability to reason well, in that time one is peaking. But it ain't binary. As long as one is comfortable with one's own emotions, they can be present and even quite strong and yet one can be rational and make a reasoned argument.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8267
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: April 4th, 2020, 7:29 am Certainly if I am extremely angry I will be both less likely to form a reasoned argument and less likely to make a good one.
This is my point, I think. 👍
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Burning ghost »

No, they are not necessarily ‘signs of weakness’. In some given cultures there is nothing to say that ‘anger’ couldn’t be conceived of as a positive and admirable trait.

Emotional behaviour has been suggested to be tied to how certain word concepts are formed and used within a given societal group. To be macho was once viewed as a kind of ‘positive’ thing, yet now I imagine most people would reframe as ‘weakness’.

Emotional concepts are funny things. I’ve actually been ‘angered’ before and managed to apparently ‘switch’ my emotion to ‘excited’ ... which leads me to believe emotions are more about what we believe they are. The trick works for me because I’m aware of the physiological similarities between ‘anger’ and ‘excitement’. By simply shifting attention to the physiologically felt experience I can effectively redefine what emotion it is I’m ‘feeling’.

Of course this could just be due to my actively attending to my feelings from moment to moment. I don’t always remember this trick, but when I do it pays dividends!
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
Jake4020
New Trial Member
Posts: 8
Joined: May 4th, 2021, 1:05 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Jake4020 »

I'd consider them weaknesses in character but as natural as any thing.
WanderingGaze22
Posts: 223
Joined: June 9th, 2021, 12:39 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

Before we begin, let us review what stressful emotions such as anger do to the human body: a similar effect when you are exercising strenuously. Your muscles tense, your heart rate spikes, you even starting sweating. Inside your brain, neurotransmitter chemicals known as catecholamines are released causing you to experience a burst of energy lasting up to several minutes. And of course, adrenaline kicks in, preparing your body for a fight. It has been proven numerous times that an angry state of mind cause you to resort to base instinct and not be more intricate and careful with certain tasks such as looking at tax returns or memorizing. That is due in part to the prefrontal cortex of your brain, which is located just behind your forehead. It is the part of the brain that controls logic and judgement. Its opposite, the amygdala, located directly above the hippocampus handles emotion. These two receptors will no doubt clash with each other during this state of mind. I imagine that the people who allow the prefrontal cortex more control than the amygdala are in a sense, strong-willed, certainly more cognitively aware of their surroundings. In conclusion, whether or not being more emotional than reasonable during anger is a sign you are weak, what is known is just like with exercising, after the "danger" is over, your body definity will feel weak from the pressure and strain.
ernestm
Posts: 433
Joined: March 5th, 2018, 4:27 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by ernestm »

Namelesss wrote: May 13th, 2018, 7:05 pm
ernestm wrote: March 11th, 2018, 10:26 pm
Namelesss wrote: March 10th, 2018, 9:36 pm Can not such 'ignorance/innocence', as you use it, not be considered a weakness, at times?
The difference between innocence and ignorance is the capacity to understand. Innocents, such as children for example, don't have the capacity to understand many things. So one could say 'children are weak,' but not 'Joe is weak' because he is a child. Joe is not responsible for his weakness, it is a consequence of his innocent condition.
EricPH
Posts: 449
Joined: October 22nd, 2021, 11:26 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by EricPH »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: June 9th, 2021, 1:05 am anger is a sign you are weak,
The person who angers you, controls you. They make you feel things and do things you don't want to do.

On two occasions I have seen lads punch through windows and rip their arms open. The person who angered them, made them do it.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by LuckyR »

EricPH wrote: January 19th, 2022, 7:59 pm
WanderingGaze22 wrote: June 9th, 2021, 1:05 am anger is a sign you are weak,
The person who angers you, controls you. They make you feel things and do things you don't want to do.

On two occasions I have seen lads punch through windows and rip their arms open. The person who angered them, made them do it.
Very true. Though there are downsides to not expressing your emotions and keeping them contained.
"As usual... it depends."
EricPH
Posts: 449
Joined: October 22nd, 2021, 11:26 am

Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by EricPH »

LuckyR wrote: January 20th, 2022, 3:00 am
EricPH wrote: January 19th, 2022, 7:59 pm
WanderingGaze22 wrote: June 9th, 2021, 1:05 am anger is a sign you are weak,
The person who angers you, controls you. They make you feel things and do things you don't want to do.

On two occasions I have seen lads punch through windows and rip their arms open. The person who angered them, made them do it.
Very true. Though there are downsides to not expressing your emotions and keeping them contained.
True justice very rarely happens, and we can be left with feelings of anger. Does this anger help us to heal; or can it cause us more harm?

I listened to Glen Fielder tell his story in Manchester Cathedral. He had grown up with David Beckham, and they had both been signed up to play football with Leighton Orient. He had a life of fame and fortune ahead of him. Shortly after he went to a night club and was stabbed in the back and beaten up. He spent a year in hospital and has been paralysed from the waist down; he has been in a wheelchair for the last 27 years. They caught the man who did this, he served four years in prison, he was then able to walk out of prison on his own two feet, and justice had been served.

By this time, Glen had learned to drive a disabled taxi, he tracked down his assailant, and then stalked him with the intention of running him over. Glen saw an opportunity to run his attacker down, but something stopped him. He said he came to understand that true justice could not happen. Justice is not that two people should be crippled, rather, it is that neither of them should be crippled. He knew he could never turn back time. He came to understand that he had to let go of his hatred; if not, he would become worse than his assailant.

He said he has to live with two diseases, being crippled, and the greater disease was the hate burning away inside him. Forgiveness and letting go of the hatred was a gradual process for his own benefit, his wheelchair has been a daily reminder of the past injustice.

Glen goes round the country talking about the need to let go of anger, and striving to be the kind and caring person that you want to be
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021