Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by wanabe »

Scott wrote:Do you think that anger, discompassion and hatred are usually symptoms of weakness?
Usually, yes, (A.D.H.) indicates weakness in a moral sense. In some cases "people [do] get frustrated by their own weakness, which makes them angry, discompassionate, and hateful" towards others. Sadly the techniques they use to feel better are not always brutish and violent, but calculated and manipulative; setting up a scenario in which others act violently. If A.D.H. are symptoms of weakness in the moral realm the ability to extract their vengeance in someway may be their strength in the mental realm. Vice versa compassion happiness and love towards others tends to indicate moral strength, but sadly this does not come coupled with a direct ability to make others this way though ones mental capacity.
Scott wrote:Additionally, people who believe themselves to be weak will tend to have an inferiority complex, which is notorious for often resulting in excessive aggressiveness as a form of overcompensation, such as in the clichéd case of most schoolyard bullies.
While I see what you are getting at. I think the notoriety comes from the flagrance of the action, not because it is the predominate way in which people cope with inferiority.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

MarkE in post #2 wrote:If you back a human into a corner, threatened with death - most likely the human will do the same thing. That is its only chance at survival.
Being aggressive may indeed be the person's best chance at survival. Rather than deny that I think it better shows how weak the person is. Getting crazy aggressive and attacking like a wild animal seem like the metaphorical Hail Mary Pass of a weak person; doesn't it?
MarkE in post #2 wrote:I know i seem cold-hearted by saying sometimes you just have to be aggressive to be strong. But the Alpha Males in all of nature do the same thing. That's why they're the leaders.
That's an interesting point, but there are other ways of looking at it. For one, the animal world is a lot more dangerous of a place in many ways than the modern first-world for humans. Is not the fact that many animals are so aggressive in ways humans are civilized a sign of their desperation to survive in ways that come easy to stronger humans? Also, at the risk of being anecdotal, aren't small dogs known for being a lot more aggressive than big dogs?

***
ontologic_conceptualist in post #5 wrote:
Scott wrote:Do you think that anger, discompassion and hatred are usually symptoms of weakness? Why or why not?
These themselves are not weaknesses per se' rather than just emotions [...]
I am not saying they are weaknesses, but rather that they are symptoms of weakness.

***

Jiddy20, thanks for your comments. You say that anger, lack of compassion and hatred are expressions of fear. I think that is true at least in most circumstances. Wouldn't you say that fear is also a sign of weakness -- thus the signs of fear being at least indirect signs of weakness?

***
snus27 in post #9 wrote:Anger can be motivating. It is difficult to see how to overthrow a tyranny by meekness and stoicism.
That's a good point, but again like others I think you have given an example that only further proves my argument: being the oppressed people of the tyranny is a form of political weakness and the angry often suicidal attack of one's own government a reaction to that circumstantially weak state, isn't it? Aren't these people violently, angry and perhaps even hatefully revolting against their government behaving similarly to the small animal backed into a corner suddenly lashing out in response to its perceived weak position?
ssnus27 in post #9 wrote:Perhaps you can clarify something for me which could help; do you mean anger, apathy and hatred against things or people?
I was mostly considering towards people, but I guess both. For one thing, I'm not anger is so specific. A person who is angered or enraged seems to spew his rage and hatred out at whatever things and people happen to be around, doesn't he? For instance, a guy has a bad day at work and comes home and kicks his dog. Does he hate his dog or does he hate his job or both? Is he so mad about what happened at or or so mad at his dog or both? I don't think anger is as much an object then as perhaps an object emotion that finds objects that happen to be around after the person has already been angered or enraged.
Intuitiv3infid3l wrote:Anger is simply a defense mechanism to help humans when they feel injustice has been done to them. The more angry a person is, the more injustice has been committed against them (factors such as genes also make a difference). It has nothing to do with being a weakness.
If someone is angry about an injustice particularly repeated injustices, doesn't that still imply weakness in that this person is so often a victim? Wouldn't a stronger person tend not to be a victim as much? Moreover, if someone commits a so-called "injustice" against a strong person or a least person who thinks himself to be very strong, does the confident strong person become very angry? Imagine an adult waiting at the ice cream truck who is cut in line by a rude child who can barely afford the ice cream he wants because he is just a child. If the adult notices but just laughs it off because he just doesn't feel that angry about it, isn't that a symptom of not only the fact that he doesn't feel threatened by the child (i.e. in a weak position) but also that he is not an angry person overall because perhaps he doesn't feel his position in society is weak; maybe he has a good, secure job and a hot, faithful wife and lots of money to buy ice cream after this silly little rude child?
dowhat1can wrote:I suppose "weakness" here would be better thought of in terms of what Belinda describes above as "fear'"in post #11 in this thread. I see the term "weakness" as being emotively satisfying but not very helpful in this discussion.
Needless to say, fear and weakness go hand in hand in that fear itself is a symptom of weakness. Mike Tyson would probably not be afraid if I challenged him to a fist fight because he is so much stronger a boxer than me. The roles reversed, I think it's safe to say I'd be afraid to see Mike Tyson trying to punch me. Of course, fear leads to a fight or flight response. Flight may be more outwardly fearful but not very angry. However, consider the fight response particularly not a more clear-headed fighting response like a snake calmly waiting to easily poisoning me to death as I walk by but in the erratic crazily aggressive behavior of an animal backed into a corner. The fear of me and my strength at fighting the animal is there, yes. But that fear has the same connection to a flight response. However, the sort of aggressive response is not only because original fear that could cause flight but to the perception of a weak position. The aggressive, or angry, response seems to be specially connected to weakness, especially perceived situational weakness, rather than just fear even though fear and weakness are so closely tied together. In humans I think this is especially interesting because our situational view is a lot more complex than literally being stuck in a corner preparing for a physical fight but in being stuck in all sorts of consciously understood metaphorical corners like being in a dead-end job that isn't going well or desperately trying to make it in the politics of being popular in high school. And I think this has a lot more to do with perceived situational weakness inspiring anger as opposed to mere fear inspiring a instinctive fight or flight response.
Craniumonempty wrote:When you say "discompassion" do you mean without compassion? I'm unsure on this word exactly. If it's simply without compassion, then I'm not exactly sure why it's there. That's why I think it means something different.
I mean unkindness.
Discards in post #26 wrote:So, the point I'm trying to make, which hasn't seemed to come up as much in this thread is that certain people actually enjoy hating and being angry. It gives them a feeling of power. You don't have to be insecure to desire power. You don't have to be afraid in the first place, either, to enjoy that feeling of power generated by giving over to your anger and violence.
You may need to feel weak or low in power to want to be empowered more but certainly it is an indicator of that. In analogy, a woman may not need to feel like she is not good-looking in the face without makeup to frequently want to wear a lot of makeup on the face, but certainly it is an indicator, right? You generally wouldn't be looking for so much more of something if you think you already have enough, right?
HexHammer wrote:If one is emotionless either you are a broken person, a utterly mental case, or born with low stimulated emotions.

It would be perfectly rational for a normal person to be emotional if their kids are hurt, contrary if a person is unemotional about their kids being hurt, there may be something wrong.

I am baffled to why the question is even asked.

What depends on the degree to the emotions.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean in the context of the topic. I'm not looking down or criticizing on weak people in a weak position, such as a kid who is constantly being bullied, who feel anger, hatred and unkindness because they feel anger, hatred and unkindness. The question is NOT are anger, hatred and unkindness reasonable reactions to feeling weak. The question is if those feelings are symptoms of being weak and/or feeling weak.
Gaebriel wrote:I think that anger and hatred are symptoms of weakness, but I think a lack of compassion seems more environmental, or perhaps psychological. Anger and hatred (depending on the topic, of course) seem to stem most often from laziness, and a lack of knowledge about the topic at hand. It is much easier to get angry and decide to hate someone/something rather than taking the time to educate ones self about it and find common ground. A genuine lack of compassion, on the other hand, is far deeper. To be able to look at someone/something in pain, or truly not care about anything going on around you is an emptiness that all the education in the world may not be able to fill. You can't make someone care if they choose not to, but with some people, it doesn't seem to be a choice at all.
Yes, psychopathy and sociopathy are disorders that are caused not by being weak or the self-perception of weakness but are to empathy what blindness is to sight. Sadism is very different than psychopathy and sociopathy. Sadism involves having empathy but wanting to cause and empathize with pain in others -- like a special form masochism but outwardly focused of course. By discompassion I pretty much meant unkindness. It has a more of a sadisitic tinge to it than utter psychopathy. Also, to me, it can be much more of a temporary things. A person in an enraged state becomes less compassionate and more sadistic than they are when in a less angry state. But some people are more angry overall in a long-term sense but even that can change and I think be affected by a general sense of confidence and strength as opposed to weakness such as getting a job promotion and feeling proud and hopeful about one's career and family life as opposed to feeling beaten down by the world. While not as hard-wired as psychopathy, it is something that seems to be a mix of setting variables which may be out of one's control (feeling insecure after being disfigured by an accident or getting laid off) and of one's general outlook, e.g. the way the confident and steadily strong Martin Luther King could react compassionately and lovingly to the same circumstances that would make most people feel weak and enraged and react much more unkindly.
wanabe wrote:Usually, yes, (A.D.H.) indicates weakness in a moral sense.
That may or may not be true, depending on what is meant by the word moral, but I do not use moral terms because I think they are too equivocal. But I doubt it is what I mean by weakness. When I talk about weakness I mean the civilized human equivalent of how a small animal often acts when backed into a corner. With the help of the replies given so far, I notice the animal's perception of weakness appears to be two-fold: Firstly, the animal feels insecure or weak in terms of being threatened. This weakness goes hand-in-hand with fear. This combo of weakness and fear inspires a fight or flight response. Flight of course is not really associated with

I think you are right about the notoriety of inferiority complexes leading to aggressive behavior being because it is more flagrant than other coping mechanisms, and that's a good point. However, the aggressive behavior is still common although not universal and that would still make the aggressive behavior a sign of self-perceived weakness, wouldn't it?
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by JacobAWyatt »

[quote="wanabe"] Usually, yes, (A.D.H.) indicates weakness in a moral sense.

Scott and Wanabe:

From an Egoist's perspective, weakness actually translates into evil. Assuming that what is morally good is one's longest-term self interest, what seems to follow is that evil is that which sacrifices the long-term self-interest in favor of immediate gratificaiton or (in this case) security and/or the expression of insecurity.

So then, are these things weakness? Yes.

Are these things moral weakness? Yes.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

I have no idea what is meant by 'moral weakness.' I assume it is another way of saying, 'immoral,' such that someone with a so-called 'moral weakness' is someone who is being 'immoral' in some way. In any case, please define moral weakness and/or immoral if you are going to use these terms so I understand what is meant.

I generally understand that as a rule of thumb when a person calls an action or person 'immoral' it is in some way a vague form of criticism. Perhaps a lot of the time we can criticize someone for acting out in any angry, unkind and hateful. But can we really blame someone for being weak, particularly considering they may have not caused their own weakness. Can we really blame the animal for wildly lashing out when backed into a corner? Can we blame the human for whom that wild animal is a metaphor? Maybe in some cases that is a more or less reasonable reaction to being very weak.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

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Scott wrote:I have no idea what is meant by 'moral weakness.' I assume it is another way of saying, 'immoral,' such that someone with a so-called 'moral weakness' is someone who is being 'immoral' in some way. In any case, please define moral weakness and/or immoral if you are going to use these terms so I understand what is meant.

I generally understand that as a rule of thumb when a person calls an action or person 'immoral' it is in some way a vague form of criticism. Perhaps a lot of the time we can criticize someone for acting out in any angry, unkind and hateful. But can we really blame someone for being weak, particularly considering they may have not caused their own weakness. Can we really blame the animal for wildly lashing out when backed into a corner? Can we blame the human for whom that wild animal is a metaphor? Maybe in some cases that is a more or less reasonable reaction to being very weak.
Well, no, I don't think that you can blame them. That's not to say that, under certain circumstances, you should address their actions with corrective action, but in most cases, I think, the proper response to weakness/evil is to try to help them see how they could be different if they just pursue to develop self-worth. And self-worth is what causes weakness/evil to evaporate. BUT self-worth is not automatic (although many people seem think it should be); it has to be earned -- you have to exercise your moral character.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Moral terms aside, I think agree with sentiment of helping these weak, misguided people -- violent, aggressive troubled teens come to mind -- overcome the weaknesses and emotional insecurities that are presumably the source of their dangerous behavior. I think this actually a very useful to understand the reasons for and benefits of responding to unkindness with compassion as a rule of thumb.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by wanabe »

Scott wrote:When I talk about weakness I mean the civilized human equivalent of how a small animal often acts when backed into a corner.
So how a weak person acts when in a compromising situation? Please explain. Especially define your use of "weakness" if you do not use moral terms.


morality=Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits- harm+logical consistency

No I don't think aggressiveness is a sign of self-perceived weakness. It could simply be a way to get what they want, not because they feel inferior but because they are greedy.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by JacobAWyatt »

Scott wrote:Moral terms aside, I think agree with sentiment of helping these weak, misguided people -- violent, aggressive troubled teens come to mind -- overcome the weaknesses and emotional insecurities that are presumably the source of their dangerous behavior. I think this actually a very useful to understand the reasons for and benefits of responding to unkindness with compassion as a rule of thumb.
Well, the reason I bring morality into it is not to judge the weak -- to the contrary -- it is important to identify morality with strength; precisely because what follows otherwise is some sort of set of moral imperatives which do not build genuine human goodness; and these imperitives reinforce insecurities and weaknesses.

-- Updated April 4th, 2012, 1:49 am to add the following --
wanabe wrote:
Scott wrote:When I talk about weakness I mean the civilized human equivalent of how a small animal often acts when backed into a corner.
So how a weak person acts when in a compromising situation? Please explain. Especially define your use of "weakness" if you do not use moral terms.


morality=Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits- harm+logical consistency

No I don't think aggressiveness is a sign of self-perceived weakness. It could simply be a way to get what they want, not because they feel inferior but because they are greedy.
I find that "greed" (defined as a desire for things beyond reasonable marginal utility) is typically symptomatic of a desire to have more than someone else; thus, greed stems from insecurity.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by wanabe »

JacobAWyatt,
JacobAWyatt wrote:I find that "greed" (defined as a desire for things beyond reasonable marginal utility) is typically symptomatic of a desire to have more than someone else; thus, greed stems from insecurity.
Greed can come from an insecurity, I can agree to that. Greed could from the desire to flaunt things just to make people jealous, not because the greedy person is insecure, but because they like to make others insecure.

In any case you and I both seem to agree that anger, discompassion and hatred are symptoms only of moral weakness. Not physical or mental weakness.

Point is, these things are not always a defense mechanism, some people are just more morally bad than good most of the time because that's how they get ahead in life, or thats how they enjoy life.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We can only cure a angry, discompassionate and hateful person (aka the morally weak) if they want to be cured. We can't do much with the information in this thread.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

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A person who "gets off" on making other people insecure does so because he sees his own value as relative to that of others; thus seeing insecurity in others aleviates his own sense of insecurity. A man of true self worth is not interested in hurting other people.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

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A person who "gets off" on making other people insecure does so because he sees his own value as relative to that of others; thus seeing insecurity in others alleviates his own sense of insecurity. A man of true self worth is not interested in hurting other people.
You have a good hold on what makes people moral and how those people work.

You seem to think that an immoral person operates in the same way, that is where your misunderstanding comes from. A person does not have to be insecure or weak in some way to do bad. Just as person doesn't have to be secure or strong in some way to do good. An immoral person can just be sadistic.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

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Well, I cannot, with any certainty, say what causes sadistic tendencies. My tendency is to think that, on a reptilian level, sadism is caused by a warped survival instinct -- and as such, it shares a common root with evil behavior brought on by insecurity.

But I'm not going to pretend that that is anything other than speculation.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

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JacobAWyatt wrote:A person who "gets off" on making other people insecure does so because he sees his own value as relative to that of others; thus seeing insecurity in others aleviates his own sense of insecurity. A man of true self worth is not interested in hurting other people.
Yes, I agree. And I think that can be backed up by the results of quite a bit of psychological research, particularly that regarding the patterns and psychological causes of abusiveness in domestic relationships and schoolyard/workplace bullying.

***
Scott wrote:When I talk about weakness I mean the civilized human equivalent of how a small animal often acts when backed into a corner.
Wanabe wrote:So how a weak person acts when in a compromising situation? Please explain. Especially define your use of "weakness" if you do not use moral terms.
In humans, are flight or fight response and chemicals like adrenaline are triggered frequently by numerous things that do not actually threaten our life or even immediate physical safety, which is actually what human stress is. I think common stressors in humans are about job security, popularity, reputation, body image and romantic success. For instance, someone who is afraid they might lost their job or that they might be humiliated by finding out their girlfriend has been cheating might biochemically being going through the same physical response as an animal backed into a corner--particularly if the person cannot practically do the metaphorical equivalent of just safely 'running away' without facing the repercussions. This weakness would be closely related to desperation, feeling trapped and political/social powerlessness.
Wanabe wrote:No I don't think aggressiveness is a sign of self-perceived weakness. It could simply be a way to get what they want, not because they feel inferior but because they are greedy.
Why don't you think aggressiveness--or angry, unkind and hateful behavior--is a sign of self-perceived weakness? Sure aggressiveness could be this or that, and a black eye on a woman who touches her nose and looks away when she says it's from accidentally walking into a door could be from her walking into a door and her touching her nose could be just from an itch and she could be looking at something. If someone reeks of alcohol and is throwing up in an ally they could be a non-drinker with a stomach bug who had a drink spilled on them by someone else. But could be isn't evidence that something isn't a sign for something else, is it?

In addition to the already mentioned fact that greed itself is probably caused by insecurity, the fact that someone resorts to unusually aggressive behavior to get what they want seems to me to clearly indicate the desperation of self-perceived weakness.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by HexHammer »

Scott wrote:[
HexHammer wrote:If one is emotionless either you are a broken person, a utterly mental case, or born with low stimulated emotions.

It would be perfectly rational for a normal person to be emotional if their kids are hurt, contrary if a person is unemotional about their kids being hurt, there may be something wrong.

I am baffled to why the question is even asked.

What depends on the degree to the emotions.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean in the context of the topic. I'm not looking down or criticizing on weak people in a weak position, such as a kid who is constantly being bullied, who feel anger, hatred and unkindness because they feel anger, hatred and unkindness. The question is NOT are anger, hatred and unkindness reasonable reactions to feeling weak. The question is if those feelings are symptoms of being weak and/or feeling weak.
It's not excatly my point, it is the bystander who could be a dad, to a kid who got his ass kicked by a child molestor, if the dad is just indifferent there might be something terrible wrong depending on the context, so I would expect the dad to enrage on the child molestor, thus anger discompassion and hatred wouldn't be irrational in this case.

BUT! You may think of something related to the Milgram Obidence Experiement, where it is an inherent weakness in us all.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by wanabe »

In humans, are flight or fight response and chemicals like adrenaline are triggered frequently by numerous things that do not actually threaten our life or even immediate physical safety, which is actually what human stress is.
While flight or flight response could be considered stress it is not the only definition of stress.
I think common stressors in humans are about job security, popularity, reputation, body image and romantic success. For instance, someone who is afraid they might lost their job or that they might be humiliated by finding out their girlfriend has been cheating might biochemically being going through the same physical response as an animal backed into a corner--particularly if the person cannot practically do the metaphorical equivalent of just safely 'running away' without facing the repercussions. This weakness would be closely related to desperation, feeling trapped and political/social powerlessness.
Yes If finding out some one is cheating on you, or job security, or body image etc, has the same chemicals released in the same amounts as some one pointing a gun at you, if and only if, then we can call this weakness.
Sure aggressiveness could be this or that, and a black eye on a woman who touches her nose and looks away when she says it's from accidentally walking into a door could be from her walking into a door and her touching her nose could be just from an itch and she could be looking at something. If someone reeks of alcohol and is throwing up in an ally they could be a non-drinker with a stomach bug who had a drink spilled on them by someone else. But could be isn't evidence that something isn't a sign for something else, is it?
Sure, we could just accept your over generalizations about anger, discompassion and hatred too, since this or that is what usually or probably happens.
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by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021