Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

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Lucylu
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Lucylu » December 10th, 2015, 7:50 pm

Atreyu wrote:My view is that self-pity is the driving force behind so called "tough" or "macho" behavior...

Yes, it is not the (fear/anger) reaction to our environment which is bad, but our own, internal reaction to these emotions.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell

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Alec Smart
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Alec Smart » July 28th, 2016, 2:10 pm

Belinda wrote:Lavie, I used to enjoy playing squash but the game was spoiled when the other person wanted to start scoring.
I hope you told him to keep his mind on the game and his hands to himself.
Smart by name and Alec by nature.

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Greta
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Greta » July 28th, 2016, 9:18 pm

Alec Smart wrote:
Belinda wrote:Lavie, I used to enjoy playing squash but the game was spoiled when the other person wanted to start scoring.
I hope you told him to keep his mind on the game and his hands to himself.
Not sure whether you have an especially sharp wit or just a one track mind, or both :)

Another aspect of power-based display behaviour is, ironically, a wish for peace, to intimidate others to avoid being hassled: "I'm scary so leave me in peace or you'll risk hurt".

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Alec Smart
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Alec Smart » July 29th, 2016, 2:31 pm

Greta wrote: Not sure whether you have an especially sharp wit or just a one track mind, or both :)
.
I can only work with the material at hand, Greta. Besides, I'm too preoccupied with my middle age gut and going bald to have a one track mind about anything else.
BTW. I don't own any black Jeans or T shirts.

8)
Smart by name and Alec by nature.

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TSBU
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by TSBU » August 28th, 2016, 4:28 am

Hi, what do you mean by weak, or tough? I don't agree with the thread if i'm understanding it well. People don't choose to harm themselves knowing deeply that they are doing that, nobody can't do that, that's not how mind works, have you ever had a self-destructive behaviour. Self-destructive people are nearly always, maybe always, very aware of tey weakness (in fact, they are more aware than other people, that's what can make a people "tough"), a lot of them have been maltreated, and so, they try to show themselves as a person capable of vengance, they don't show their weak points, how much do they need love and that things (but that is evident, indeed, self-destructive actions are usually a "Help me!" shout... but most of time, they are a way to escape reality. It's not realted with seeing themselves superior to others, a teenager bleding does it privatly, it's probably something similar to thinking "I can get out of this world when I want it, commiting suicide, so I can keep on with this").

But, going to the main thread, for me you seem to be talking about wakness or toughness as a property of the human when he borns, but you are not talking about being the most intelligent, the strongest (phisically), the most beautiffull for more people, the... testosteronest? XD, I hope I'm wrong, but maybe you are talking about something else, and you are doing it saying that this "self-destructive" people are, and can't change that, weak (and of course, you are tough), maybe because you were never hurt. That's just the bully psichology XD, look at market prices etc... how do you put your price? how do you know your price? Well, people pay. If they can't play "the game" they are "weak"... and that can grow a lot, the guy who is selling drugs is probably thinking that way about the people who buy. And he deserves that money, he isnpt smart, he isn't anything, but he is... "tough".

Now, going to the self-destructive antisocial psichology, saying that makes you a target, you must know how weak you are, you must pass thorugh the same pain, and then, keep calling other people "weak". I have a lot of "antisocial" thoughts (well, not really, I think society doesnp0t exist, but I have a lot of "anti nearly every person" thoughts), people make laugh at other people suffering, they atack before being atacked, they get in groups to tell themselves that they are right, they pass trough their lifes almost thinking that they are perfect, they expect other people to be happy working for free and without love, they all seem to think that they are the most intelligent, they all seem to think that they are good people... and then, they blame jews, cause they are "weak".

Being tough is survive to bad experiences, and keep living. Nobody is tough when he borns, experiences are what make you "tough", and that's usually seing things that most of people prefer to evade if we call "weak" to the people who isn't intelligent etc, they usually get tough, cause they have to fight more for what they want, they have more difficult lifes. We talk about toughness to know how much can a person suffer. A tough person in some fields, is a person who can pull the trigger if he has to do it. Sometimes life means pain, you have to suffer to go thorugh life, it hurts. But some people prefer to escape it , they prefer to lie themselves and think that they are not even going to die... it's complicated, but maybe this is more for a psichology forum.

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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Obi1 » September 7th, 2016, 10:50 pm

The OP seems to be talking about mental toughness. Physical toughness and the demonstration of it is often to deter a more serious incident. I agree with the person who said that often times a little tough behavior is a warning to not let things spiral out of control because both parties lose. I think it's better to walk away or calm down a situation but people learn these maladaptive behaviors from maladaptive environments. In some dysfunctional childhood this person learned that the most effective way to escape a problem was to display physical toughness.

I agree that physical toughness is not mental toughness. Side note- even the biggest and most confident person isn't mentally tough in every environment.

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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by TiffinD » September 17th, 2017, 1:50 pm

I think it's possible that self-destructive behavior like what you're describing could have a practical existence. Purposely causing oneself harm might build psychological, if not physical, tolerance to pain or hardship in general, thus effectively making one "tougher". It has the added benefit of demonstrating this tolerance to potential competition, as humans are obviously social animals and may feel compelled to do this. I can see how that may seem to imply insecurity, but it's also possible that this is just economical decision making - this display of toughness could prevent a lot of fights or competition for the person in question, thus conserving resources (energy) for when it is absolutely necessary to expend them.

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Thrylix
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Thrylix » January 3rd, 2019, 9:41 pm

Well, I love acting recklessly and unabashed when I know there won't be consequences from anyone who matters. Also, my feet smell. :roll:

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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Mans » September 16th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Braveness is different with hardness, harshness and toughness. Braveness is the same patience against any danger. Usually, brave persons are more kind, friendly and soft to others, in the normal situations.

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arjand
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by arjand » December 13th, 2019, 9:27 am

Self-destructive behaviour may have many origins including trauma, but when considering the behaviour of harming others to overcome a feeling of weakness (as described in the OT), an analogy may be the story about the Devil that attempts to overturn God with trickery and deceit. It describes a weakling that tries to become stronger than a perceived strength in others by attempting to escape nature with corruption. A choice for evil.

In my personal quest (+10 years) to find the core motivation for practices within psychiatry, my most plausible theory has been that psychiatrists could be seen as the weaklings within the school of doctors who are naturally inclined to crave rewards such as status, power and money that come naturally to honest doctors. Big Pharma corruption has resulted in a system that promotes weaklings that can be corrupted. It explains why at its core, psychiatrists are not intelligent. They merely appear so when people are stunned by their trickery.

An example:
Postman becomes a court psychiatrist

The German postman Gert Postel, after a disastrous treatment of his mother, wanted to show that psychiatry is a scam and successfully infiltrated the forensic psychiatric establishment and was almost appointed professor of forensic psychiatry and director of a forensic clinic with self-made diagnoses.

Postel: "In psychiatry one can explain everything, but then everything in a plausible way: as a psychiatrist you can claim the opposite, but also the opposite of the opposite. Those who master the psychiatric vocabulary, can endlessly continue to debit nonsense and thereby pack graduates. "

Postel: "It is a matter of psychiatric speech acrobatics and a little staging." Postel: "I thought to myself: who is the scammer here: they or me?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gert_Postel
Friedrich Nietzsche in the Genealogy of Morals called priests the weakest of the weak, and described that it would result in destructive behaviour and the harming of others.
The priests are, as is notorious, the worst enemies—why? Because they are the weakest. Their weakness causes their hate to expand into a monstrous and sinister shape, a shape which is most crafty and most poisonous. The really great haters in the history of the world have always been priests, who are also the cleverest haters—in comparison with the cleverness of priestly revenge, every other piece of cleverness is practically negligible.

...

All sick and diseased people strive instinctively after a herd-organisation, out of a desire to shake off their sense of oppressive discomfort and weakness; the ascetic priest divines this instinct and promotes it; wherever a herd exists it is the instinct of weakness which has wished for the herd, and the cleverness of the priests which has organised it, for, mark this: by an equally natural necessity the strong strive as much for isolation as the weak for union: when the former bind themselves it is only with a view to an aggressive joint action and joint satisfaction of their Will for Power, much against the wishes of their individual consciences; the latter, on the contrary, range themselves together with positive delight in such a muster—their instincts are as much gratified thereby as the instincts of the[Pg 177] "born master" (that is, the solitary beast-of-prey species of man) are disturbed and wounded to the quick by organisation. There is always lurking beneath every oligarchy—such is the universal lesson of history—the desire for tyranny. Every oligarchy is continually quivering with the tension of the effort required by each individual to keep mastering this desire. (Such, e.g., was the Greek; Plato shows it in a hundred places, Plato, who knew his contemporaries—and himself.)
I personally do not believe in weakness, only in good intent and prevention of corruption. It is easy to not care. It takes strength to choose a righteous path. Life is a fight. Every person can be the strongest and serve life in the best way, by their intent. The people described in the OT can be considered the strongest in ways that may not be able to be predicted when their intent is not to corrupt or diminish the perceived strength - or optimum condition - of others.
If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.

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Ensrick
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Ensrick » March 31st, 2020, 1:25 pm

The psychological mechanisms underlying aggression are hypothesized to be context-sensitive solutions to particular adaptive problems of social living. What do I mean by that? In say, a feudal society attempting to rule by intimidation and raiding a rival county might simply be the best outcome for your family and local population; for you as a feudal lord, have a higher moral obligation to serve the best interests of your estate. This is just a crude example for lack of a better one. Most of you probably don't live in a world where that kind of aggression is beneficial to you, your family or community.

In the modern world we have the emergence of a global societies through the internet. We have a greater capacity to expand our moral obligation to other nations and peoples. From the perspective of evolutionary psychology, we have many behaviors that might serve the survival of our species well when resources are scarce that, for many of us in developed nations, are no longer useful such as aggression and intimidation. In disenfranchised communities and nations there is much more violence. I see this as a result of the problems humanity is attempting to overcome through self control.

In the scope of developed nations, we have health issues with dieting and depression that, once again, have been linked by evolutionary psychology to adaptive problems. Modern cardiovascular and obesity issues are hypothesized to be associated with the abundance of macronutrient rich foods easily available. Depression is hypothesized to be associated with the lack of challenges to our survival; it's virtually non-existent in tribal societies.

@arjand, I agree with your bottom line and I would add that in the interest of pragmatic solutions to societal problems we need to build our thoughts on the existing psychology around these issues. I think we need to be aware that we have to exert a level of self discipline to overcome our nature when it is no longer suited to the world we live in.

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arjand
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by arjand » April 1st, 2020, 6:11 am

Ensrick wrote:
March 31st, 2020, 1:25 pm
@arjand, I agree with your bottom line and I would add that in the interest of pragmatic solutions to societal problems we need to build our thoughts on the existing psychology around these issues. I think we need to be aware that we have to exert a level of self discipline to overcome our nature when it is no longer suited to the world we live in.
The question why discipline is vital may be most important. Why does someone naturally feel the urge to follow a righteous path in life? What is righteous and how could one know without thinking (i.e. instinctively)?

When one would merely consider a certain result (i.e. prevent destructive behavior) and attempts to enforce that result with discipline, one may logically fall into the opposite when misfortune overwhelms one. It is because by ones attempt to reach a certain result without knowing why one will live with the idea (growing fear) of the other and when misfortune overwhelms one, one can lose grip and may naturally believe that, because of the evidence of a lack of a successful result in life (this could be emotional evidence), that which has been feared is the most logical / natural behavior, by which one feels obliged to "give in". In practice, one would merely follow nature so it wouldn't be an "act".

Hard work and previously learned discipline may overcome some of the problems but how would one be able to believe that a certain result is the natural and most logical result, and thus, that it will always naturally follow in the face of unfortunate circumstances in life?

A cultural strategy may be the key to create motivation. As it appears, (major) superhero comics in the US have long had an intellectual ground with the intend to create a cultural strategy to motivate people (children) to follow a righteous path in life.

In the modern age, digital advertising, AR/VR etc. may hold a key to play a role to apply a cultural strategy to provide motivation.
If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.

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Ensrick
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Re: Causes of Self-Destructive Attempts at Toughness

Post by Ensrick » April 1st, 2020, 1:02 pm

The questions you led with relate to larger epistemological problems and some evolutionary psychology.

The generally accepted reason for our natural tendency to act righteously involves Hume's Prisoner's Dilemma and natural selection. The Prisoner's Dilemma explains the strategic advantages behind interspecies cooperation (for further details). Humans are social and generally prioritize cohesion as a strategy for survival.

As I mentioned earlier, our instincts can fail when they are no longer suited to the world we live in, which is why we can use self-discipline to master our instincts, at least to a degree. However, you are correct to note that by attempting to force ourselves against our nature we can fall into the opposite but this is why our attempt to maintain self-control should be tempered by understanding.

As for cultural strategies; the narratives in the media and culture are created with the intent to evoke emotion. This often makes the media the most dangerous influence on people's thoughts and morality. The narratives people are drawn to tell stories of villainy and heroism which rarely reflect well on reality. In writing we use Pathos, Ethos and Logos to appeal to the audience. Pathos is by far the most effective means at appealing to a general audience; followed by Ethos, but Logos is generally the most accurate.

The advent of modern scientific discovery accounts for but a sliver of time in human existence on this planet. The majority of our evolution before empirical study has been shaping our intuition and instincts. Global warming and vaccines are mired in controversy to the point that the only way science has been able to reach an audience is by creating a narrative that involves the cultural tropes of good and evil.

I vehemently recommend keeping skeptical mind in this world saturated with information intended to take advantage of our psychology. In the interest of humanity, the foundation for thinking and knowledge must be pragmatic as opposed to emotionally influenced. To act in this way requires acknowledging biases and using discipline to counter behavior influenced by bias.

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