Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Pel
Posts: 102
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Pel »

I have a question to ask you all and that us is the following behaviour if doctors justified. I would sicierly like to know your opinion since this is a realvlife situation. My life.

The following is a letter my friend wrote no my behalf. I wont you to know exactly what goes on with the psychiatry in Australia. And also I want you to know that there is always hope. I atleast I believe in intervention.

This document has been written on behalf of Ervin P. to provide an approximate account of his psychiatric treatment experience with particular note to the year 2011 during which time Ervin was fulfilling the requirements of his Community Treatment Order. We hope we can convince an organisation or person of influence that Ervin has suffered an inappropriate level of inflexibility in the imposing of medication on him even though it was acknowledged by his Carers that he had naturally recovered from the illness being treated.

It must be stated that neither Ervin nor I have access to any relevant personnel or medical records so all events are based on Ervin’s memory but can be verified at the institutes in which he received treatment. To respect the privacy of individuals involved, names have been omitted from this document.

He first began receiving medication in 2005 when after a psychotic episode he voluntarily sought help at the Werribee Mercy Hospital Psychiatric Unit. He spent around one week there and was released with some medication.

Over the next few years Ervin was incarcerated for crimes which he committed while he was mentally well. This put him under the care of the Melbourne Assessment Prison –Acute Assessment Unit.

He attempted to cease medication on a number of occasions unsuccessfully and relapsed approximately once a year (4 episodes in which he committed no crimes and was not a danger to others). During these years Ervin had not taken any illicit substances although on 3 occasions had consumed alcohol and while intoxicated his recollection was faulty so he claims he cannot be 100% certain.

In early 2010, for the first time he decided to confess his crimes while he was unwell. Upon his release the psychologists he worked with during his six months of incarceration classified him a “Low Risk” of reoffending which is the minimum level of risk available.

Community Treatment Order 2011 Early 2011 - He experienced a family crisis and took illicit substances for the first time in 7 years. - Around 2 weeks later he became unwell again and made another police confession. - He spent around a week and a half at the Werribee Mercy Hospital Psychiatric Unit and was placed on a Community Treatment Order. - He began attending weekly meetings with the CAT team at Saltwater Mental Health Clinic. o During this time he complained to Dr. Juliana that antipsychotics were making him feel suicidal. He was told he had to take them regardless of the anxiety he felt. - He made two further confessions to the police while well. - He made an unofficial complaint that he had only been informed of a Mental Review Board Hearing 2 hours before it was scheduled to occur. September 2011 - He made an unofficial complaint that he had only been informed of a Mental Review Board Hearing 6 days after it was scheduled to occur. October 2011 - Ervin can no longer stand the effects of the antipsychotics so he makes a desperate choice to break off completely and attempt to face his Psychosis. He is able to naturally come out of his Psychosis. Ervin believes recover was due to the police confessions he had been making and also his religious faith.

November 2011 - At this stage Ervin has changed his place of residency and is seeing the CAT team at the Inner West Mental Health Service Waratah Clinic. - Owing to his obvious recovery, Ervin makes a verbal agreement with the CAT team that he is no longer required to take antipsychotic medication on the condition that he does not take illicit drugs.

December 2011 - Ervin meets with the CAT team who ask him why he has no job if he is well. This makes Ervin feel that they are “blackmailing”/insinuating that he was not being honest with them. He is told that they were considering placing him on medication again. -I Almunther spoke to Ervin after he had been off medication for roughly two months and had been out of psychosis for forty days. In my unprofessional opinion he seemed completely normal and his beliefs regarding Religion and a Monotheistic Deity were not in any way harmful to a tolerant society and are in line with my own beliefs. He does have a passion for his Religion, but in my opinion his mood was less “elevated” than people you see on the Religious Channels on Cable Television. I believe he was in a recovered state as we spoke at length about his situation and he seemed normal. - At a subsequent CAT team meeting, Ervin is informed that the Clinical Risk Management Team met and they came to the conclusion that Ervin was at a high risk of relapse and would either take medication voluntarily or have his CTO revoked. o He argues that he was told 0.01% of people recover and never relapse again but the CAT team denies every disclosing such statistics. o He is told that he will have the opportunity to talk at the Mental Health Review Board meeting scheduled less than a week after. Having been told his CTO will be revoked, he is not going to have the opportunity to attend it. o He is offered the option of weaker medication if he complies. Owing to the circumstances of his recovery Ervin believes medication can only harm his recovery and refuses to voluntarily take it. He expresses his disappointment that they are going to force him to take medication purely as a preventative measure even though he is strongly opposed to the action and is not even ill. - On December 10th, Ervin is forcibly removed from his home and taken to the John Cade Unit of the Royal Melbourne Hospital. While at John Cade Unit: o Day 1- He is informed by one of the doctors that he has psychosis because he talked about religion too much and had an elevated mood. Ervin argues that his mood was elevated due to the dramatic escalation of events that led to his hospitalisation. And argues he should not have been hospitalised as he was not ill. o Day 2 - he meets with a doctor. Ervin walks out during the meeting disappointed with the doctor’s refusal to let him seek alternate treatments options and having determined that the sole purpose of the meeting was to determine the amount of medication required. Ervin is forcibly administered 50ml of Zuclopenthixol o Day 3 – Ervin is forcibly administered 200ml of Zuclopenthixol o Day 6 – Ervin has up till now refused to talk to doctors due to his disapproval of the entire affair. While being forcibly administered 300ml of Zuclopenthixol he is told he should cooperate or he will simply be diagnosed with Paranoia and given larger doses of medication. o Day 7 – Ervin decides to talk to doctors. - On December 15th Ervin misses the Mental Health Review Board meeting due to his hospitalisation and revocation of his CTO. - Upon release the next day Ervin’s friend refuses to allow him to ride a bicycle due to his lack of alertness. Over the next few days he hears comments from his friend that his behaviour has changed. I too noticed he seemed more apathetic about life. - Ervin suffers anxiety attacks and considers suicide, he resorts to antidepressants.

Having described his situation, Ervin and I would like to express our dissatisfaction with the level of care provided and point to a few shortcomings: - Mental Review Board Hearing o was told about a hearing 2 hours before. Giving him insufficient time to access Legal Representation; o was told about a hearing after the actual event date and time had passed. Causing him to miss the hearing and potentially have a negative impact on his compliance record; o had his CTO revoked a few days prior to the hearing. He had been told during the CAT team meeting that he would be able to attend it. This is an example of the disconnect between what patients are told and what actually occurs. - He made an agreement with his Carers to not take illicit substances if they did not medicate him which they recanted without warning or reason. -Ervin claims to have been given statistical information that 99.99% of patients never recover after multiple relapses. This discussion was denied to have ever happened. Such disagreements could be easily refuted if all correspondence between clients and service providers were documented and recorded. -Ervin felt staffs were insinuating that he was lying about his recovery and reformed character. As there is no means of determining how clients are being treated by their Carers, this also builds a case for greater transparency and integrity during all interactions between clients and service providers. -There appears to be no appeal process for the revoking of his CTO. - Talking too much about religion and elevated mood were the reasons given for his re-diagnosis of psychosis which according to the Mental Health Act appear insufficient criteria in determining mental illness. - Forced Drugging – At his time in John Cade Medical Unit, Ervin was complying with all instructions. However Ervin refused to talk to doctors and this caused them to inject additional amounts of anti-psychotics. These drugs affect Ervin’s negatively, inducing severe anxiety and suicidal inclinations. Nurses at the Unit commented that Ervin did not appear to have any illness so this seems an extreme measure just to get someone to talk against their will. Ervin and I believe antipsychotics have long term effects that are damaging and should not be administered just to make someone talk. We are also shocked at the level of the dosages.

It is our hope that we have provided enough detail to prompt an investigation or spark interest in this case.
Last edited by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes on January 27th, 2012, 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: promotional link removed
My real name is Ervin.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13822
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors jystified?

Post by Belinda »

Has Pel been in touch with The Mental Illness Fellowship Of Australia? They have a booklet on psychiatric medications. They may be also help with advice about obtaining a second opinion for Pel on his medications.Try also the International Schizophrenia Foundation.

The history outlined by Pel's friend indicates that Pel is benefitting overall from what he has been doing regarding lifestyle and medications. The key issue from Pel's medications concerns seems to be suicidal thoughts: mood changes is listed in advice to patients as one of many less common side effects of Zuclopenthixol.

While suicide is always an option for human beings and is on some occasions a sane choice, I doubt if Pel's illness allows him to have the insight into his states of mind and their causes to make a rational decision, therefore I think that Pel is rightly worried about suicidal thoughts and should get advice on how to deal with them,(talking therapy, psychotherapy) quite apart from Pel's need to discuss possible changes to his medication.

I also wonder if the particular medication that Pel is on has a stated risk of suicide. There is no doubt that suicide is a major cause of death among mental illness patients.However I understand that such patients are those who suffer from bipolar disorder not schiozophrenia. Is there some other effective medication available that carries no such risk? I don't know, and I assume neither does Pel know. In this case can Pel ask for a second opinion from another psychiatrist or doctor with knowledge of psychiatric medications?

I am firmly on the side of patients who feel injustly treated by medics or by the general public. Pel must know that danger to the public(that includes me and mine) from disturbed persons must also be considered. I do not know how the powers that be evaluate such a risk from persons with certain psychoses. Those two needs have to be balanced.

Without knowing the legal requirements of treatment orders, or what medications are available, I cannot comment on whether or not Pel's treatment (at the instigation of the treatment order)is justified which seems to me to be a practical,or even legal question.Can a doctor overturn the treatment order? Pel needs to contact someone who knows , and I hope that the Mental Illness Fellowship of Australia can help directly or recommend some body who can help with 1. medications advice and 2. advice about appealing the treatment order.
Socialist
Deadred
Posts: 19
Joined: March 10th, 2012, 1:50 pm

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Deadred »

Very few people with mental illness have a single diagnosis. You never gave a diagnosis, but paranoia and delusion are part of both Schitzophrenia and Bi-Polar disease. I spent 5 years as a facillator for NAMI (Nat'l Assoc on Mental Illness) and have been hospitalized twice for major depression. My background is 32 years in Surgery, so I understand the lingo of Medicine quite well. Because of my own illness, I've spent 10 years studying the details of all kinds of mental illness. Scitzophrenia and Bi-Polar disease are very tough cookies, and it is a known phenomenon that those who suffer from both of these illnesses have frequent periods when they will not take their meds. These folks think they are well and that they don't need their meds any longer. Unfortunately, when you get on a National level with these kinds of organizations, the rules are stringent, and those who follow these kinds of things are literally forced to follow the guidelines, or they end up losing their licenses. It's a difficult course for anyone involved. These things are not one size fits all.
Pel
Posts: 102
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Pel »

Paranoid schizophrenia. After that because of the side effects of medication a doctor diagnosed me with schizoeffective disorder and co morbid anxiety disorder. That's two diagnoses that are actually side effects if medication. Side effects wich are terrible. Now I am manic because I don't get paranoid any more they have to find something new so that officially you can't live without them and their drugs.

I have found out that the psychs will I think never let you voluntarily "quit" their help and their drugs. Also the mental health review board will only take you of the community treatment order if you say and convince them that you believe that you can't live a good, safe, etc life without their drugs wich means that they only exist to give people a false sense of us having rights because the doctors psychiatrists can take you of the order without the board.

Someone who knows has told me that the only way to get them and their drugs out of your life is to contest their decision(wich is always the same for everyone) at s court called VCAT wich is situated in Melbourne city and it will take a considerable time and many appeals before it can happen.

Thanks
My real name is Ervin.
Schaps
Posts: 809
Joined: March 30th, 2012, 2:42 am
Favorite Philosopher: Nietzsche

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Schaps »

The question relates to the behaviour of the doctors- not a discussion of the diagnoses or treatments. I work as a doctor and my comments are therefore biased by that association.. I am of the opinion that it is the doctor's ( here substitute ANY healing professional or layperson) innate perception of - and compassion towards the patient's suffering-- that becomes manifested in the doctor's behaviour towards the patient. That the results of said behaviour is of critical significance is evidenced by virtue of these very discussions that we are engaged in! The need to even QUESTION the behaviour speaks to a failure in the doctor- patient relationship!

The exemplar per excellence of how a doctor's behaviour affects their patient's well being, is shown by the death of Michael Jackson as a direct consequence of the behaviours of HIS trusted "care givers" -doctors included!
Pel
Posts: 102
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Pel »

Following is a defence I plan to use for the mental health review board. And them most likely at VCAT, since at VCAT its possible to get of. It's written by my friend Almunther. If you know someone who is having similar issues you can always let him or her look into this. Preaty much if you have what they call a religious or spiritual experiences were you feel strongly the presence of God, or simply having very strong faith were you are like you can almost see God they class it as an illness. So, you preaty much need to be a materialist atheist or a believer who can't sense God in some way if you want psychiatrists to say that you are fine. After reading posts in this thread I would like to ask others tor their opinion.

The defence:

Reasons why Ervin should not be forced to take Antipsychotics

Addressing the relevant sections of the Mental Health Act:

Section 8(1)(a) –The person appears to be mentally ill

Ervin believes God healed him and he appears well, which is why he decided to cease taking antipsychotics. He was off antipsychotics for a number of months and this was known to his Psychologist and the CATT team. Initially the team at North Western Mental Health had no issues with this and Ervin was told as long as he did not take illegal drugs he could continue down this course. However it was later decided that this was unacceptable and he was hospitalised at the Royal Melbourne Hospital.

While there, it was determined that he had “relapsed” This diagnosis should be re-examined as exclusionary condition s8(2) lists that expressing a religious opinion cannot be the sole reason for diagnosing mental illness. He was told he had relapsed because he spoke about Religion too much and had an elevated mood.

Regarding his speech on Religion

Ervin believes that God helped him recover from Schizophrenia. His beliefs are not symptoms of a delusion, but a common human experience i.e. that God is responsible for healing an ailment.. Unfortunately for Ervin, acknowledging God has led to him being forced into taking the antipsychotics; a substance he is averse to taking. The way he is being treated is arguably a violation of his Human Rights as he must denounce his faith or be seen as delusional. After being discharged and after many months, and a steadily decreasing dosage of antipsychotics, his belief that God healed him remains unchanged.

Regarding his elevated mood

An elevated mood is something Ervin has always displayed, and is merely a part of his personality. His previous Psychologist R. J., a trained individual who regularly saw Ervin over the course of years, noted his talkativeness and eccentric attitude (refer to letter by R.J.). His personality remains the same as always.

It should be emphasised that his religious beliefs and elevated mood have remained unchanged since he was forced to take antipsychotics. However, these thought processes are all of a sudden seen as acceptable to his carers who after discharge from hospital have consistently reduced the dosage and potency of the antipsychotics required.

Overall, regardless of any appearance of recovery, essentially Ervin will have to take Antipsychotics for the rest of his life. To quote the team at North Western Mental Health (Refer to letter by North Western Mental Health) “It is evident that whilst Mr P. may appear well in the short term his history suggests the high likelihood of him becoming unwell if left untreated”. This statement rules out any possibility of recovery outside of an ongoing antipsychotic medication regime.

Section 8(1)(b) –Person's mental illness requires immediate treatment

As previously discussed, Ervin was forcibly medicated to prevent a relapse which statistically would occur. However, it is arguable that a relapse was imminent at the time the decision was made to revoke his CTO.

Section 8(1)(c) –Involuntary Treatment necessary to prevent deterioration or for Health and Safety reasons

Taking into account the circumstances of his hospitalisation and diagnosis of relapse mentioned earlier, there is no conclusive evidence that his health was deteriorating.

There is little evidence that Ervin’s is currently a risk to himself or others. In the Initial Risk assessment he received when hospitalised (Refer to the Royal Melbourne Hospital Initial Risk Assessment), he was assessed on a variety of Risk criteria and it was found he was No Risk in most areas and Low Risk in others. Where he was assessed as Low Risk the decision was based on Historical factors and not current conditions.

He acknowledges his past crimes and has served his sentences. His worst crimes were committed while on heavy drugs and his lifestyle was vastly different during that phase of his life. His religious outlook has caused him to evaluate and reform his past behaviour drastically. Ervin can get many people to vouch for his lawful and honest character (Refer to letter by F.D.). His previous Psychologist wrote that at no point did he consider Ervin a Risk to himself or anyone.

Section 8(1)(d) –Refusal of necessary treatment.

Ervin refused based on his personal beliefs that he has recovered with God’s Help. His previous Psychologist wrote that with professional support, counselling and monitoring he believes Ervin’s condition can be well managed.

However, it is seen that Ervin has refused “necessary” treatment. Such a conclusion would suggest a lack of alternatives. It would mean disregarding the numerous studies that found a higher rate of complete recovery in third world countries. Countries that make minimal use of antipsychotic drugs and have an emphasis on Social and Emotional Support based treatments.

To quote one such study of many (using results from the World Health Organization collaborative project, the International Study of Schizophrenia):

“Evidence of differences in illness trajectory in favor of the developing centers was consistently found. Six potential sources of bias are then examined: differences in followup, arbitrary grouping of centers, diagnostic ambiguities, selective outcome measures, gender, and age. None of these potential confounds explains away the differential in course and outcome. We conclude with suggestions for further research, with particular attention to the need for close documentation of everyday practices in the local moral worlds that "culture" refers to.”[1]

So not only is there reason to doubt the long-term effectiveness of Ervin’s treatment, there are also well researched side effects to antipsychotic drugs which studies have revealed can be permanently debilitating or fatal. Some of these side effects have affected Ervin. As noted by his previous Psychologist, Ervin found relief from the generalised anxiety and panic attacks he suffers when taking antipsychotics..

Due to Ervin’s knowledge of the aforementioned issues with antipsychotics, the side effects he experiences and his personal belief that he does not require them, it is not unreasonable for him to refuse to take them and request alternative treatments.

Section 8(1)(e) –the person cannot receive adequate treatment for the mental illness in a manner less restrictive of his or her freedom of decision and action.

Ervin has experienced being off medication without deterioration. He is on a very low amount of medication at the moment, after having ceased it completely in recent times with no signs of relapse being imminent. This is contrary to the opinion that he would deteriorate. His Previous Psychologist recommended Professional Support, counselling and monitoring.

It should be restated that the CATT team at North Western Mental Health were initially open to the idea of Ervin not taking antipsychotics as long as he did not take illegal drugs. However, this agreement Ervin had with them was overruled during an in-house committee meeting.

[1] Hopper K, Wanderling J (2000). "Revisiting the developed versus developing country distinction in course and outcome in schizophrenia: results from ISoS, the WHO collaborative follow up project. International Study of Schizophrenia". Schizophrenia Bulletin 26 (4): 835–46.

Thanks
My real name is Ervin.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13822
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Belinda »

I wonder if Pel attributes his recovery entirely to God, or if Pel acknowledges that it is possible at least that the medications played a part in his recovery. Lacking a trial of God's power alone, and such a trial would be risky according to prevailing scientific consensus, Pel has no sure foundation for attributing his recovery or cure to God alone.
Socialist
Pel
Posts: 102
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Pel »

Belinda, medication namely antipsychotics can't cure you. They can only make your situation worse. Antipsychotics theoretically prevent your dopamine receptors from registering exes dopamine. How can that cure you.

And yes I believe its God who cured me.

Thanks

-- Updated Mon May 28, 2012 5:37 am to add the following --

Following is a letter that my friend Almunther has articulated tor me. It's my second complaint that I believe will be of interest to any believer in God, especially to those who believe that Gods presence or a connection to Him can be felt. You judge wether it is ethical this behaviour by these so called doctors.

To North western Mental Health,

I am just writing to make you aware that Dr S....s made a comment that a book called "God is not great" written by Christopher Hitchens was an excellent book. I assume he agrees with a lot of what’s in it. Therefore it doesn’t surprise me that he is trying to diagnose my feeling of God’s presence as a sickness. To me it is a peacefully harmonious experience. Another time he told me that I think I am special because God communicates with me. Recently he questioned whether I was having any religious ideas. This ongoing emphasis on my faith as a symptom aggravates me. Diagnosis of religion is covered under the exclusionary conditions s8(2) of the Mental Health Act yet there is nothing I can do about it being a repeated point of contention during our appointments.

Thanks,


Ervin

-- Updated Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:09 am to add the following --

The following is a post I wrote some time ago. It's actually whatI believe about Source(God) right now, even without pharmaceuticals and with I know the following is my true belief:

by Ervin » SatMar 31,2012 2:57 am

I thought I mightgo a bit into my last experience of God.Last time I felt strong presence/comunication with God was about three to two weeks ago. It was the most beautiful experience I had in my life and at the same time the"devil/demons" where playing mind games with me it didnt bother me at all. God felt like peace, light, love, truth, gentlness,someone who wouldnt burn anyone ineternal hell. It was wanderfull.It was just someone you can totally trust with everything. Just a memory of that experience is enough to make me calm, forgiving, compassionate, loving, kind, reasonable, good. It was as I could see God but I wasnt seing things. Gods presence was felt as if he was everywhere. Thats what I felt.

Thanks

-- Updated Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:41 am to add the following --

Following is what I have written in the thread in the philosophers lounge under the title where I asked if the word stigmata comes from the word stigma. In that thread I invited everyone to read this thread on so called psychiatry and I have posted following information that sets this thread straight, true.

One thing I didn't mention and that is seconds prior to " spontaneous recovery " I made a choice to lie about my beliefs. I decided to lie about taking pharmaceuticals because I was pretty certain that they will tor e me to take them. But I started telling the truth about not taking and what happened happened. So I didn't just think about taking a risk. However eventually I decided to tell the truth, but I forgot about that detail, otherwise everything else was true.

Also, when I pleaded guilty to raping who appeared to be a woman, heroin user and a street prostitute of 20 years e said (I love her and I love the police and everyone else by the way), who wouldn't return the money when I asked her since she refused to do what I paid her for, I was going through a so called first psychotic episode. I got scared of hell and even though I thought its to late to "repent" I kept trying. Later on two confessions where due to so called schizophrenia. It came to me that that's how I can help myself get "better" and purify my self. Rest you can read in the thread if you wish and I would like your comment please.

Remember its ok what they have done to me. But, I wish to write about it. If you ask me like I said I want to align with the Source I feel is infinitely gentle.o

I forgive everyone everything and love everyone and everything and I want peace in the end, if not now as well. And I do good my way because its my right.

Thanks

-- Updated Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:16 am to add the following --

Just want to ad that the so called symptoms of the illness came back eventually since I didn't want to lie ( thqts how it seemed at least) and whenever I decided wholeheartedly to lie, everything would get "better". But, I know that where there is will there is a way for doing actual good same as there is for evil. Existence is fair and I have rights same as "other/s" do. I have a choice.

Thanks

-- Updated Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:11 am to add the following --

Also, I pleaded guilty but at first I wanted them questioned while affected by a so called what I was later told is psychotic, then schizophrenia to the indecent assaults where I asked two females, wo I got later told are 17 years old to have sex with and I touched one on the hips. When I pleaded guilty without any fighting later on I was on pharmaceuticals and not affected.

Also, the following I thought about later on and I added it to this on other forums:

Also, I pleaded guilty but at first I wanted them questioned while affected by a so called what I was later told is psychotic, then schizophrenia to the indecent assaults where I asked two females, wo I got later told are 17 years old to have sex with and I touched one on the hips. When I pleaded guilty without any fighting later on I was on pharmaceuticals and not affected. The rest I did because I thought even while not affected by a so called illness because I like telling the whole truth, its me.

I was also in prison for adults on remand while in Europe while I was 15 Years old for break and enter. I was found guilty of some sort of an assault charge tor hitting a man while working as a crowd controller. I was in Australian military prison for awol( Absent without leave) I started taking amphetamines, actual injecting while in the Army. Plenty of other times I broke the so called laws but didn't deal with the police or courts because of it.
My real name is Ervin.
Pel
Posts: 102
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Pel »

Peace and hi I everyone.

It has been a long time since I posted this thread. I was looking back on it and thinking what is the best way to deal with this situation.

And to put it simply as Eckhart Tolle would say In his book stillness speaks, in the acceptance and surrender chapter to do exactly that. But I am pretty sure that somewhere else he says that we can work on fixing the problem, but accept this moment as it is.

Thoughts!

Thanks
My real name is Ervin.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7094
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pel wrote: May 16th, 2012, 4:51 am Belinda, medication namely antipsychotics can't cure you. They can only make your situation worse. Antipsychotics theoretically prevent your dopamine receptors from registering exes dopamine. How can that cure you.

And yes I believe its God who cured me.
There's the problem right there.
If god cured you then you have to ask why he made you ill in the first place.
There is clearly some sort of basic cognitive problem.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 1st, 2019, 11:00 am
Pel wrote: May 16th, 2012, 4:51 am Belinda, medication namely antipsychotics can't cure you. They can only make your situation worse. Antipsychotics theoretically prevent your dopamine receptors from registering exes dopamine. How can that cure you.

And yes I believe its God who cured me.
There's the problem right there.
If god cured you then you have to ask why he made you ill in the first place.
There is clearly some sort of basic cognitive problem.
I confess that I didn't read the overlong OP and follow ups, due to their low idea per page ratio. However, I will point out that doctors can do essentially two things that patients cannot do on their own: do surgery and write prescriptions for controlled substances. If a patient can cure their own problem in any other way: religion, meditation, herbal meds, OTC meds, diet, exercise etc, they are free to do so and can claim full credit. In that scenario, leave the doctors out of it, both for blame and for credit.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Felix »

Actually, prior to the advent of psychiatric drugs like Prozac, et. al., many medical doctors had success treating psychiatric disorders with nutritional supplements: high doses of certain vitamins, minerals, and amino acids. It was demonstrated that some people have a very high requirement for certain essential nutrients, too high to get them from their diet, and a deficiency of them can cause psychiatric issues. It's certainly true that psychiatric meds are over prescribed and their dangers are frequently down-played.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Pel
Posts: 102
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Pel »

LuckyR wrote: September 1st, 2019, 7:19 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 1st, 2019, 11:00 am

There's the problem right there.
If god cured you then you have to ask why he made you ill in the first place.
There is clearly some sort of basic cognitive problem.
I confess that I didn't read the overlong OP and follow ups, due to their low idea per page ratio. However, I will point out that doctors can do essentially two things that patients cannot do on their own: do surgery and write prescriptions for controlled substances. If a patient can cure their own problem in any other way: religion, meditation, herbal meds, OTC meds, diet, exercise etc, they are free to do so and can claim full credit. In that scenario, leave the doctors out of it, both for blame and for credit.

Hi Lucky. Honestly, I don’t think that intrinsically anyone is at fault for anything. I do believe there are good and evil actions, but I don’t believe evil to be wrong as such. I think that laws and wright or wrong is invented so that we can have laws that would maybe somehow try and insure that we can perhaps try and live in harmony. At the same time yes, there are always consequences.

Then again, yes I do believe in a God, however I thing some very liberal Christian Gnostics, who don’t necessarily take everything in every scripture as true or literal have got it right. And that is that God didn’t purposely create everything, but that everyone and everything have self willed and emanated out of him.

The above is the opinion that I have bald most of the time.

Thanks
My real name is Ervin.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by LuckyR »

Pel wrote: September 1st, 2019, 11:35 pm
LuckyR wrote: September 1st, 2019, 7:19 pm

I confess that I didn't read the overlong OP and follow ups, due to their low idea per page ratio. However, I will point out that doctors can do essentially two things that patients cannot do on their own: do surgery and write prescriptions for controlled substances. If a patient can cure their own problem in any other way: religion, meditation, herbal meds, OTC meds, diet, exercise etc, they are free to do so and can claim full credit. In that scenario, leave the doctors out of it, both for blame and for credit.

Hi Lucky. Honestly, I don’t think that intrinsically anyone is at fault for anything. I do believe there are good and evil actions, but I don’t believe evil to be wrong as such. I think that laws and wright or wrong is invented so that we can have laws that would maybe somehow try and insure that we can perhaps try and live in harmony. At the same time yes, there are always consequences.

Then again, yes I do believe in a God, however I thing some very liberal Christian Gnostics, who don’t necessarily take everything in every scripture as true or literal have got it right. And that is that God didn’t purposely create everything, but that everyone and everything have self willed and emanated out of him.

The above is the opinion that I have bald most of the time.

Thanks
Really? That wasn't the vibe I was getting from your title. But I'll take you at your word. Kudos to you for solving your own problem.
"As usual... it depends."
Pel
Posts: 102
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Re: Is the following behaviour of doctors justified?

Post by Pel »

Lucky r, you said:

Really? That wasn't the vibe I was getting from your title. But I'll take you at your word. Kudos to you for solving your own problem.

I was a bit bored and impatient with the current ongoing medication reduction last night, otherwise things are getting better with the medication and all of that so called mental health issue stuff.

Plus, when I originally started writing this thread yes I was angry. But now I know that anger is never good for myself or anyone else.

Thanks
My real name is Ervin.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021