I'm having difficulty picturing which 'learned' men have this difficulty. So far I can picture only 'eastern' sages sitting on mountains like the one in Black Narcissus.LuckyR wrote: ↑August 28th, 2020, 1:08 amThere is a difference between being exposed to knowledge and believing in knowledge. The learned are more likely to trust scientific information, but it is far from universal.Belindi wrote: ↑August 24th, 2020, 5:29 am
Medics are part scientist and part artist/communicator. Notwithstanding the artist/communicator component modern medicine is scientific ; it is metaphysically based upon brain-mind as dual aspects of the same. And so with particular reference to foetal sentience the foetus suffers only in accordance with the development of those bits of the brain stem and 'old brain' that have to do with sentience. Moreover foetuses, like Robert Burns's mouse, know nothing of conceptualising hopes and fears, as every concept is learned from the culture.
Is abortion wrong?
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
- LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
Perhaps you are familiar with Medical Doctors who "believe" in hydrochloroqine as virus treatment?
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
No, I never heard of them. All right, Lucky, I believe you. 'Learned ' is not what I'd call people who have been through professional training and acquired knowledge but not sound judgement.
- LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
I don't disagree with you.
- Sy Borg
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
Funny thing when you think about "scientific information" and the controversy around it.
Using scientific information is ultimately just asking around to find out what other people think. That simply trying to find out what's going on by referring to what others have observed has somehow become controversial is bizarre to me.
Logically, if someone does not want you checking a situation out in detail, they will be seeking to fool, dominate or manipulate you.
- GrayArea
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
But I believe what's more wrong is preventing human beings from making either the right or the wrong choice.
The element of choice is more important than life itself, not because freedom prevails over life concept-wise(it's the other way around), but because our choices are what makes the world go, and at the end of the day that is more important than life. Because at the end, the only thing that matters is what happens—not what "should" happen. And because we have control over what happens. The baby inside the mother's body cannot stop the mother from abortion, while the mother can abort the baby if she feels like so.
To argue what should or should not be the case is pointless in my opinion, so I think that the choices we should make is essentially the choices that we can end up making.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
I know this thread has been inactive for about a year and a half, but I still feel the need to clarify some of my statements.GrayArea wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 3:19 am
I believe that abortion is wrong.
But I believe what's more wrong is preventing human beings from making either the right or the wrong choice.
The element of choice is more important than life itself, not because freedom prevails over life concept-wise(it's the other way around), but because our choices are what makes the world go, and at the end of the day that is more important than life. Because at the end, the only thing that matters is what happens—not what "should" happen. And because we have control over what happens. The baby inside the mother's body cannot stop the mother from abortion, while the mother can abort the baby if she feels like so.
To argue what should or should not be the case is pointless in my opinion, so I think that the choices we should make is essentially the choices that we can end up making.
When I say that the fact that what makes the world go is more important than life, I mean that the fact that "something happens" is more important than life, because life is merely one of the many things that also "happen"—its subset, so to speak.
Not to mention that the baby's life itself does not and can not physically stop the mother from aborting them.
- GrayArea
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
Killing an already existing lifeform is immoral, and is a net negative. However, preventing life to be born in the first place can be immoral, too. But I believe the latter is more of a non-positive/neutral than an outright net negative. Simply a lack of both positive possibilities and negative possibilities. Or perhaps we only tell ourselves that, because going by this logic, we are continuously sinning every second that we spend preventing possibilities of life.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑July 18th, 2020, 6:17 pmA foetus is a paracistic blood clot, and can be an unwanted intrusion in the body of a woman that has had other plans. A life destroying intrusion.Wdk7 wrote: ↑July 18th, 2020, 5:04 pmI just acknolleged the diffrence. Your falling to demonstrate to me why that difference justifies different treatment. Being inside a woman's body does not prove to me that a woman has a right to kill you because from my perspective we are responsible to care for the life we create. Which again if you think she is not then I can see why you would find abortion acceptable.
A baby can also be considered in exactly the same way with the exception that it is capable of an extrasomatic existence.
To insist that a woman carries an unwanted foetus is a breach of her human rights. Foetuses are not people and have no rights.
The fact that life is a significant/important thing in general is something that you also seem to agree on, given that you care about the human rights of already existing lifeforms, such as the mother who bears the child.
- LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
If I understand you correctly your position is that abortion violates your personal moral code but you feel it is consistent with the ethical standards of the Modern western community.GrayArea wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 3:19 am I believe that abortion is wrong.
But I believe what's more wrong is preventing human beings from making either the right or the wrong choice.
The element of choice is more important than life itself, not because freedom prevails over life concept-wise(it's the other way around), but because our choices are what makes the world go, and at the end of the day that is more important than life. Because at the end, the only thing that matters is what happens—not what "should" happen. And because we have control over what happens. The baby inside the mother's body cannot stop the mother from abortion, while the mother can abort the baby if she feels like so.
To argue what should or should not be the case is pointless in my opinion, so I think that the choices we should make is essentially the choices that we can end up making.
If so, I don't disagree with you.
- GrayArea
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
Well, my position is more like "Abortion is wrong, but what's right or wrong does not matter in this situation, it's our choices that do and so prohibiting our choices is even more wrong".LuckyR wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 2:42 pmIf I understand you correctly your position is that abortion violates your personal moral code but you feel it is consistent with the ethical standards of the Modern western community.GrayArea wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 3:19 am I believe that abortion is wrong.
But I believe what's more wrong is preventing human beings from making either the right or the wrong choice.
The element of choice is more important than life itself, not because freedom prevails over life concept-wise(it's the other way around), but because our choices are what makes the world go, and at the end of the day that is more important than life. Because at the end, the only thing that matters is what happens—not what "should" happen. And because we have control over what happens. The baby inside the mother's body cannot stop the mother from abortion, while the mother can abort the baby if she feels like so.
To argue what should or should not be the case is pointless in my opinion, so I think that the choices we should make is essentially the choices that we can end up making.
If so, I don't disagree with you.
It's that the things that determine the outcome of this situation should be more embraced than what the outcome should be.
One may ask, however, that if what's right or wrong does not matter, then prohibiting one's choices is also allowed. Yep, it is. But so is not prohibiting them. And while I stand by the latter because of my own moral codes or "how the outcome should be", I am well aware that at the end of the day it is less significant compared to the outcome itself, and that the outcome prevails over the morals.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
So you would or would not criticize another who chose abortion?GrayArea wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 3:49 pmWell, my position is more like "Abortion is wrong, but what's right or wrong does not matter in this situation, it's our choices that do and so prohibiting our choices is even more wrong".LuckyR wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 2:42 pmIf I understand you correctly your position is that abortion violates your personal moral code but you feel it is consistent with the ethical standards of the Modern western community.GrayArea wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 3:19 am I believe that abortion is wrong.
But I believe what's more wrong is preventing human beings from making either the right or the wrong choice.
The element of choice is more important than life itself, not because freedom prevails over life concept-wise(it's the other way around), but because our choices are what makes the world go, and at the end of the day that is more important than life. Because at the end, the only thing that matters is what happens—not what "should" happen. And because we have control over what happens. The baby inside the mother's body cannot stop the mother from abortion, while the mother can abort the baby if she feels like so.
To argue what should or should not be the case is pointless in my opinion, so I think that the choices we should make is essentially the choices that we can end up making.
If so, I don't disagree with you.
It's that the things that determine the outcome of this situation should be more embraced than what the outcome should be.
One may ask, however, that if what's right or wrong does not matter, then prohibiting one's choices is also allowed. Yep, it is. But so is not prohibiting them. And while I stand by the latter because of my own moral codes or "how the outcome should be", I am well aware that at the end of the day it is less significant compared to the outcome itself, and that the outcome prevails over the morals.
- GrayArea
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
I already did, when I said "I believe that abortion is wrong".LuckyR wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 8:41 pmSo you would or would not criticize another who chose abortion?GrayArea wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 3:49 pmWell, my position is more like "Abortion is wrong, but what's right or wrong does not matter in this situation, it's our choices that do and so prohibiting our choices is even more wrong".LuckyR wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 2:42 pmIf I understand you correctly your position is that abortion violates your personal moral code but you feel it is consistent with the ethical standards of the Modern western community.GrayArea wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2022, 3:19 am I believe that abortion is wrong.
But I believe what's more wrong is preventing human beings from making either the right or the wrong choice.
The element of choice is more important than life itself, not because freedom prevails over life concept-wise(it's the other way around), but because our choices are what makes the world go, and at the end of the day that is more important than life. Because at the end, the only thing that matters is what happens—not what "should" happen. And because we have control over what happens. The baby inside the mother's body cannot stop the mother from abortion, while the mother can abort the baby if she feels like so.
To argue what should or should not be the case is pointless in my opinion, so I think that the choices we should make is essentially the choices that we can end up making.
If so, I don't disagree with you.
It's that the things that determine the outcome of this situation should be more embraced than what the outcome should be.
One may ask, however, that if what's right or wrong does not matter, then prohibiting one's choices is also allowed. Yep, it is. But so is not prohibiting them. And while I stand by the latter because of my own moral codes or "how the outcome should be", I am well aware that at the end of the day it is less significant compared to the outcome itself, and that the outcome prevails over the morals.
If I was a female and given a choice to abort, I wouldn't do it—but I am aware that I am not female and thus will not undergo the same experiences that women go through firsthand, so I am not completely sure on that part. Just a general idea I have.
- rose-30
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
However, even if you wear your seatbelt, you know that there is an 80/90% chance that you can get into a car accident. Because it is a fact.
So, at the end of the day, if you choose to have sexual relationships, you should face the consequences of that decision. Sex is not a hobby, it's the only way to create life. And we all know that, so how can you be surprised and want to kill the baby because it was an "accident"?
There are no such things as having a baby by accident. An accident happened to you when you did not do anything about it (I accidentally fell from the stairs). YOU choose to have sex, it's a choice, it's not an accident. Even if you don't plan a baby, you planned to have sex and the baby is just the proven result of that choice.
Finally, for rape. I think that it is much more complex BUT I still think that we should first think about the baby because unfortunately, the baby can't take his own decision. So if he/she is here, a human shouldn't be the person to decide his/her destiny. If you can't have the baby, there is adoption. But at least, you give him/her the chance to exist and (potentially) be great!
My mom had me when she was 16. You can call it an "accident" I call it stupid. My grandma wanted her to abort, BUT, here I am. I love my life. And I'm happy that she let me have an opportunity to live this life.
- LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
Several things. Early in your comments you make a big deal about choosing to have sex and the consequences of that choice. Later in the rape section (an area without choice) you gloss over what you had previously made such a big deal about. Thus your "reasoning" sounds more like rationalizations to fit the pre-determined conclusion you finally reveal the source of in your last paragraph.rose-30 wrote: ↑March 4th, 2022, 9:41 pm I think that I soon as we start having sexual relations we know that there is a risk of getting pregnant. Therefore, it is our responsibility to face the consequences of our actions. When you get into a car and don't buckle your seatbelt, you crash and get injured. You are judged as guilty. Because you were responsible for the choice that you made by not protecting yourself.
However, even if you wear your seatbelt, you know that there is an 80/90% chance that you can get into a car accident. Because it is a fact.
So, at the end of the day, if you choose to have sexual relationships, you should face the consequences of that decision. Sex is not a hobby, it's the only way to create life. And we all know that, so how can you be surprised and want to kill the baby because it was an "accident"?
There are no such things as having a baby by accident. An accident happened to you when you did not do anything about it (I accidentally fell from the stairs). YOU choose to have sex, it's a choice, it's not an accident. Even if you don't plan a baby, you planned to have sex and the baby is just the proven result of that choice.
Finally, for rape. I think that it is much more complex BUT I still think that we should first think about the baby because unfortunately, the baby can't take his own decision. So if he/she is here, a human shouldn't be the person to decide his/her destiny. If you can't have the baby, there is adoption. But at least, you give him/her the chance to exist and (potentially) be great!
My mom had me when she was 16. You can call it an "accident" I call it stupid. My grandma wanted her to abort, BUT, here I am. I love my life. And I'm happy that she let me have an opportunity to live this life.
Understandable but far from a coherent argument.
- rose-30
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Re: Is abortion wrong?
I made it a big deal because it is a big deal. People don't realize it since they can call it "an accident". But if you are raped it's different and obviously is not your choice. But it's also not the fault of the baby and I don't think it's our decision to take his/her life.LuckyR wrote: ↑March 5th, 2022, 3:54 amSeveral things. Early in your comments you make a big deal about choosing to have sex and the consequences of that choice. Later in the rape section (an area without choice) you gloss over what you had previously made such a big deal about. Thus your "reasoning" sounds more like rationalizations to fit the pre-determined conclusion you finally reveal the source of in your last paragraph.rose-30 wrote: ↑March 4th, 2022, 9:41 pm I think that I soon as we start having sexual relations we know that there is a risk of getting pregnant. Therefore, it is our responsibility to face the consequences of our actions. When you get into a car and don't buckle your seatbelt, you crash and get injured. You are judged as guilty. Because you were responsible for the choice that you made by not protecting yourself.
However, even if you wear your seatbelt, you know that there is an 80/90% chance that you can get into a car accident. Because it is a fact.
So, at the end of the day, if you choose to have sexual relationships, you should face the consequences of that decision. Sex is not a hobby, it's the only way to create life. And we all know that, so how can you be surprised and want to kill the baby because it was an "accident"?
There are no such things as having a baby by accident. An accident happened to you when you did not do anything about it (I accidentally fell from the stairs). YOU choose to have sex, it's a choice, it's not an accident. Even if you don't plan a baby, you planned to have sex and the baby is just the proven result of that choice.
Finally, for rape. I think that it is much more complex BUT I still think that we should first think about the baby because unfortunately, the baby can't take his own decision. So if he/she is here, a human shouldn't be the person to decide his/her destiny. If you can't have the baby, there is adoption. But at least, you give him/her the chance to exist and (potentially) be great!
My mom had me when she was 16. You can call it an "accident" I call it stupid. My grandma wanted her to abort, BUT, here I am. I love my life. And I'm happy that she let me have an opportunity to live this life.
Understandable but far from a coherent argument.
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