Is abortion wrong?

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Sculptor1
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:11 pm
Sy Borg wrote: December 4th, 2022, 6:58 pm Ants, beetles, snails and even microbes also recoil from threats. We kill all of them too, along with every other type of animal that Christians do not care about. No, but every human sperm is scared!
I don't think sperm are smart enough to be scared.

As to being sacred, Christians don't consider fetuses to be sacred or even members of the church. If they did there would be a tradition of funerals for miscarriages.
If sperm is not sacred then why does the Catholic church have a ban on contraception: and warnings against mastebation?
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:17 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:11 pm
Sy Borg wrote: December 4th, 2022, 6:58 pm Ants, beetles, snails and even microbes also recoil from threats. We kill all of them too, along with every other type of animal that Christians do not care about. No, but every human sperm is scared!
I don't think sperm are smart enough to be scared.

As to being sacred, Christians don't consider fetuses to be sacred or even members of the church. If they did there would be a tradition of funerals for miscarriages.
If sperm is not sacred then why does the Catholic church have a ban on contraception: and warnings against mastebation?
Looking for logic in a pile of dogma is a fool's errand.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sy Borg »

My point was that recoiling from threats is not a human trait, but one we share with the very simplest of creations - that anti-abortionists certainly don't care about.
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Mounce574
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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The Catholic church is embedded with Religion. Catholics are not the same as most Christian churches. Historically, Catholics persecuted non-believers. Christians don't pray to Mary or any other saints like Catholics do. Catholics follow the passage "Be fruitful and multiply" from the Old Testament. That is why they don't believe contraception should be used (I can almost guarantee the majority of women still use it anyways).

Why are microbes considered on the same level as a human child? And if a "Fetus" is not a living being, then how come it suddenly is a living being when it is born? What was it in the birth canal that allowed the non-living to become living?
Christianity actually follows Jeremiah 5:1 "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you" and Isaiah 49:1 "The Lord called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name."
Based upon those 2 verses (there are a lot more) we were alive before birth.

The Animal issue:
Personhood is properly defined by membership in the human species, not by stage of development within that species.
Personhood is not a matter of size, skill, or degree of intelligence.
The unborn’s status should be determined on an objective basis, not on subjective or self-serving definitions of personhood.
It is a scientific fact that there are thought processes at work in unborn babies.
If the unborn’s value can be compared to that of an animal, there is no reason not to also compare the value of born people to animals.
Even if someone believes that people are no better than animals, why would they abhor the killing of young animals, while advocating the killing of young children?
the body part is defined by the common genetic code it shares with the rest of its body; the unborn’s genetic code differs from his mother’s.
The child may die and the mother live, or the mother may die and the child live, proving they are two separate individuals.
The unborn child takes an active role in his own development, controlling the course of the pregnancy and the time of birth.
Being inside something is not the same as being part of something.
"Facts don't care about your feelings." Ben Shapiro
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." NF from Motto
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Again, it does not matter that a foetus is alive, given that people absolutely have no qualms about killing that which is less sentient than humans, and foetuses are vastly less sentient than even mice.
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Mounce574
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Something nonhuman does not become human by getting older and bigger; whatever is human must be human from the beginning.
If the unborn’s value can be compared to that of an animal, there is no reason not to also compare the value of born people to animals.
Basically, you are stating that a microbe is just as important as a human being. So when you have a bacterial infection, which is attacking you, why are you killing it? Because theoretically, it has the same value as the person it is killing. So who is of more value then.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Discussion on the topic of abortion solely arguing about the status of fetuses while omitting the issue of the autonomy of women is intellectually dishonest in a Philosophy Forum and is more suited to political advertising/speech making.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sy Borg »

Mounce574 wrote: December 5th, 2022, 2:30 am Something nonhuman does not become human by getting older and bigger; whatever is human must be human from the beginning.
If the unborn’s value can be compared to that of an animal, there is no reason not to also compare the value of born people to animals.
Basically, you are stating that a microbe is just as important as a human being. So when you have a bacterial infection, which is attacking you, why are you killing it? Because theoretically, it has the same value as the person it is killing. So who is of more value then.
Which is it? One minute you are saying that the issue is that the foetus is alive or has rudimentary senses.

The next the issue is that the foetus could potentially grow into a human. The latter does not matter. At that point the foetus is less like an adult human than a sheep, and the world is already catastrophically overpopulated with humans. If we are to consider who should die, for me, first would be elderly people living in pain who wish to die with dignity, next would be foetuses and next would be incorrigible dangerous criminals. However, since we often avoid making such decisions, opportunity costs and limited resources mean that the deaths are more spread out across age bands, meaning a greater net loss of sentience.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:24 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:17 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:11 pm
Sy Borg wrote: December 4th, 2022, 6:58 pm Ants, beetles, snails and even microbes also recoil from threats. We kill all of them too, along with every other type of animal that Christians do not care about. No, but every human sperm is scared!
I don't think sperm are smart enough to be scared.

As to being sacred, Christians don't consider fetuses to be sacred or even members of the church. If they did there would be a tradition of funerals for miscarriages.
If sperm is not sacred then why does the Catholic church have a ban on contraception: and warnings against mastebation?
Looking for logic in a pile of dogma is a fool's errand.
But the thread is not about addressing logic, its about whether or not abortion is wrong.
That is a discussion about morality which is rarely logical.
Morality starts with emotion. You can overlay logic but that is not the primary focus.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Mounce574 wrote: December 5th, 2022, 2:30 am Something nonhuman does not become human by getting older and bigger; whatever is human must be human from the beginning.
False.

If the unborn’s value can be compared to that of an animal, there is no reason not to also compare the value of born people to animals.
Basically, you are stating that a microbe is just as important as a human being.
No - that is what YOU are saying. You are saying that a small clump of cells is a human.
So when you have a bacterial infection, which is attacking you, why are you killing it? Because theoretically, it has the same value as the person it is killing. So who is of more value then.
What makes you think you have the right to live?
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 5th, 2022, 8:40 am
LuckyR wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:24 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:17 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:11 pm

I don't think sperm are smart enough to be scared.

As to being sacred, Christians don't consider fetuses to be sacred or even members of the church. If they did there would be a tradition of funerals for miscarriages.
If sperm is not sacred then why does the Catholic church have a ban on contraception: and warnings against mastebation?
Looking for logic in a pile of dogma is a fool's errand.
But the thread is not about addressing logic, its about whether or not abortion is wrong.
That is a discussion about morality which is rarely logical.
Morality starts with emotion. You can overlay logic but that is not the primary focus.
If you mean that morality starting with emotion is referring to that being how children and the immature decide how to behave, I agree with you. For adults with life experience and personal integrity, logic plays a significant role in personal morality (hence this Forum). Your experience may differ.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: December 5th, 2022, 8:40 am
LuckyR wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:24 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:17 pm

If sperm is not sacred then why does the Catholic church have a ban on contraception: and warnings against mastebation?
Looking for logic in a pile of dogma is a fool's errand.
But the thread is not about addressing logic, its about whether or not abortion is wrong.
That is a discussion about morality which is rarely logical.
Morality starts with emotion. You can overlay logic but that is not the primary focus.
If you mean that morality starting with emotion is referring to that being how children and the immature decide how to behave, I agree with you. For adults with life experience and personal integrity, logic plays a significant role in personal morality (hence this Forum). Your experience may differ.
But as you suggest logic is not a great tool to understand morality.
Whatever you might think, people on both sides of the argument use reason, often this is little more than finding rationales to support their emotional reaction.
I shall admit that I regard abortion laws emotionally in terms of a view of society which seeks to impose its will and control people. MY reaction is about loss of autonomy and the desperate plight of unwanted children; it's also about my reaction to the sanctimonious hypocrisy of those that bleat about "the sacredness of life"; who seem to be the same people who blame poverty on the poor; promote the pro-gun lobby, and are happy about the latest war.

I would not call my reaction to that logical, though I can work out reasons that pro-life is often rationally bakrupt.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 6th, 2022, 6:04 am
LuckyR wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: December 5th, 2022, 8:40 am
LuckyR wrote: December 4th, 2022, 7:24 pm

Looking for logic in a pile of dogma is a fool's errand.
But the thread is not about addressing logic, its about whether or not abortion is wrong.
That is a discussion about morality which is rarely logical.
Morality starts with emotion. You can overlay logic but that is not the primary focus.
If you mean that morality starting with emotion is referring to that being how children and the immature decide how to behave, I agree with you. For adults with life experience and personal integrity, logic plays a significant role in personal morality (hence this Forum). Your experience may differ.
But as you suggest logic is not a great tool to understand morality.
Whatever you might think, people on both sides of the argument use reason, often this is little more than finding rationales to support their emotional reaction.
I shall admit that I regard abortion laws emotionally in terms of a view of society which seeks to impose its will and control people. MY reaction is about loss of autonomy and the desperate plight of unwanted children; it's also about my reaction to the sanctimonious hypocrisy of those that bleat about "the sacredness of life"; who seem to be the same people who blame poverty on the poor; promote the pro-gun lobby, and are happy about the latest war.

I would not call my reaction to that logical, though I can work out reasons that pro-life is often rationally bakrupt.
Got it. I don't disagree with your post as written. Post hoc rationalization is not only a thing, it is likely the default mode in routine situations. Of course, here in a philosophy forum, you'd hope that logical arguments would have more traction and thus modification of understanding (based on new, logical information /arguments) would be commonplace and actually changing minds would occur on occasion.

Perhaps how formulation of moral codes on neutral topics where an individual doesn't possess a pre-made opinion (no dog in the fight) would be instructive in determining whether "logic" is applied normally or selectively to support emotion.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 6th, 2022, 6:04 am
LuckyR wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: December 5th, 2022, 8:40 am

But the thread is not about addressing logic, its about whether or not abortion is wrong.
That is a discussion about morality which is rarely logical.
Morality starts with emotion. You can overlay logic but that is not the primary focus.
If you mean that morality starting with emotion is referring to that being how children and the immature decide how to behave, I agree with you. For adults with life experience and personal integrity, logic plays a significant role in personal morality (hence this Forum). Your experience may differ.
But as you suggest logic is not a great tool to understand morality.
Whatever you might think, people on both sides of the argument use reason, often this is little more than finding rationales to support their emotional reaction.
I shall admit that I regard abortion laws emotionally in terms of a view of society which seeks to impose its will and control people. MY reaction is about loss of autonomy and the desperate plight of unwanted children; it's also about my reaction to the sanctimonious hypocrisy of those that bleat about "the sacredness of life"; who seem to be the same people who blame poverty on the poor; promote the pro-gun lobby, and are happy about the latest war.

I would not call my reaction to that logical, though I can work out reasons that pro-life is often rationally bakrupt.
Got it. I don't disagree with your post as written. Post hoc rationalization is not only a thing, it is likely the default mode in routine situations. Of course, here in a philosophy forum, you'd hope that logical arguments would have more traction and thus modification of understanding (based on new, logical information /arguments) would be commonplace and actually changing minds would occur on occasion.

Perhaps how formulation of moral codes on neutral topics where an individual doesn't possess a pre-made opinion (no dog in the fight) would be instructive in determining whether "logic" is applied normally or selectively to support emotion.
Logic is always limited by premises. and reasoning is secondary in matter of morality.
It is the passions that drive such matters.
In science, often the passions can interrupt and ruin a good science debate. But there is no objective basis for say, the importance of life, the wishes of an individual, or the rights of man and woman. The fact that I have to add "woman" to the last sentence should tell us something about the recent past and how moral values have not always been bestowed evenly.
This is of great importance to the current debate where I feel there is a legacy of misogyny handing in the background where we see, mostly men, continue to deny women rights to their own body.
But the rights of men or women have never been objective, and so logic and reason is not what drives moral values.
One has first to accept that a right can and should to equal despite gender, age, race, creed, and so on. This is still rare in the world despite the UNDHR
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Mounce574
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Mounce574 »

The problem with morality is my morals may not match yours. Rather than abortion, women should be more responsible about what they are doing prior to being pregnant.
"Facts don't care about your feelings." Ben Shapiro
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