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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 13th, 2020, 8:58 am
by Sculptor1
h_k_s wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 10:08 pm
Greta wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 9:54 pm
Just imagine you take a calf from its mother, each screaming in upset as they are parted. Then you coral and kill the calf. Then people buy its flesh in a plastic sealed packet at a supermarket, then they sear the flesh and eat it.

Life is inherently tough. Not everyone makes it.

I'm not sure why Right-to-Lifers stop caring once the baby is born. They argue against healthcare that would save lives. They argue for pointless that take lives.
Animal slaughter is cruel in all aspects, and forbidden by Buddhist principles. It is one of the forbidden professions.

On a farm or ranch, it is carried out on a smaller scale and always emotionally distressing to both the animal and to the farmer/rancher.

On an industrial scale, only the first employee who handles the skull piston is affected by the cruelty of the process. The rest of the assembly line workers are just handling a carcass that must then be skinned, gutted, halved, and cleaned for further processing. Most meat plants then send out the half-carcasses for further processing and distribution. The process thus dehumanizes the endeavor.

All the animals that I have ever killed died quickly not knowing what hit them. In most cases it was either a 30 caliber hunting bullet, or shotgun shot, or a 22 caliber backpacker's bullet. And as many hunters do, I always apologize to the animal when I walk up to it, and I thank it for its meat, and then endeavor not to waste any of it.

My cat does not have the same consciousness when he hunts, stalks, pounces, and kills smaller animals. He relishes these meals.

So it must simply be a human characteristic of regret that we feel when we kill something.

I wonder how abortion doctors feel when they abort fetuses?
Killing is not relevant to this topic.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 13th, 2020, 2:23 pm
by amplified cactus
Steve3007 wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 4:04 pm
amplified cactus wrote:For me it's simple: (1) Others have the right to occupy your body only with your explicit consent. (2) You have the right to revoke consent to the occupation of your body for any reason at any time. (3) It's acceptable to use lethal force against somebody occupying your body without your consent.
When we exercise our right to expel unwanted occupiers, would you say that we have the duty to allow them reasonable time to make their exit before killing them? For example, if I have a guest in my house and I decided that I no longer want that guest in my house, do I have the right to immediately shoot him dead? Or do I have the duty to let him know that he's no longer welcome and give him reasonable time to stand up and make for the door before reaching for my gun?

If the answer is "yes" then I suppose the next question (possibly a trickier one) is what constitutes "reasonable". I wonder how long we should give a foetus to exit our bodies before withdrawing life support.
I don't see why this is relevant. A foetus can't just get up and walk away, and in any case, it wouldn't be able to understand any order you give it. There would just be no point having a requirement that women first explicitly command the foetus to leave, and then give it a "reasonable time" to do so, before using lethal force.

As for the house guest, no you shouldn't have the right to shoot them. In general, it's not acceptable in my view to use lethal force against somebody occupying your house without your consent. You should let the unwanted occupier know that they are no longer welcome before e.g. calling the police or calling your friends to help you remove them, otherwise you'll make yourself look rather silly.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 13th, 2020, 4:52 pm
by Steve3007
Killing is not relevant to this topic.
Regardless of how you feel about abortion, it kind of is.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 14th, 2020, 3:21 am
by LuckyR
Sculptor1 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 5:41 am
h_k_s wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 10:08 pm

So it must simply be a human characteristic of regret that we feel when we kill something.

I wonder how abortion doctors feel when they abort fetuses?
I think they would pride themselves on doing the best job they can to minimise suffering and do no harm.

You have to wonder how doctors choose the specialisms of their career path.

Since there exist in the world proctologists, you have to wonder if medical professionals genuinely have a sense of detachment. Do they actively choose this are are they just filling a hole in the market?
Folks who have a real choice (doctors have more choice than most) make their choice of specialty for many reasons, most of which are not how they should, hence why too many end up in the wrong field.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 14th, 2020, 3:53 am
by Steve3007
amplified cactus wrote:I don't see why this is relevant. A foetus can't just get up and walk away, and in any case, it wouldn't be able to understand any order you give it. There would just be no point having a requirement that women first explicitly command the foetus to leave, and then give it a "reasonable time" to do so, before using lethal force.
So unwanted guests with whom it's impossible to communicate can legitimately be immediately shot dead when they've outstayed their welcome?

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 14th, 2020, 4:04 am
by Steve3007
Clearly the above is absurd, but the absurdity is a reflection of your ridiculous analogy between adult human intruders and foetuses. The foetuses are not people who have intruded on our bodies. That doesn't mean I oppose all abortions. My position on abortion is the normal one: I think it should be permissible up to a certain number of weeks, and the precise number of weeks depends on all kinds of factors, including the developmental stage of the embryo/foetus and the welfare of the mother. It seems to me absurd to take an extreme view at either end of the spectrum - to advocate rights for single celled embryos or to permit the deliberate killing of 5-minutes-before-birth babies.

I think some common sense is in order here.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 14th, 2020, 5:56 am
by Sculptor1
LuckyR wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 3:21 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 5:41 am


I think they would pride themselves on doing the best job they can to minimise suffering and do no harm.

You have to wonder how doctors choose the specialisms of their career path.

Since there exist in the world proctologists, you have to wonder if medical professionals genuinely have a sense of detachment. Do they actively choose this are are they just filling a hole in the market?
Folks who have a real choice (doctors have more choice than most) make their choice of specialty for many reasons, most of which are not how they should,
Says who ?
hence why too many end up in the wrong field.
What do you mean?

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 14th, 2020, 3:53 pm
by LuckyR
Sculptor1 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 5:56 am
LuckyR wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 3:21 am


Folks who have a real choice (doctors have more choice than most) make their choice of specialty for many reasons, most of which are not how they should,
Says who ?
hence why too many end up in the wrong field.
What do you mean?
I make a point of speaking to medical students who are at the point of choosing their specialty about their default process for making the choice and giving them the benefit of several decades of experience with dealing with practicing docs who self report having made the wrong decision and why.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 14th, 2020, 11:03 pm
by amplified cactus
Steve3007 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 3:53 am
amplified cactus wrote:I don't see why this is relevant. A foetus can't just get up and walk away, and in any case, it wouldn't be able to understand any order you give it. There would just be no point having a requirement that women first explicitly command the foetus to leave, and then give it a "reasonable time" to do so, before using lethal force.
So unwanted guests with whom it's impossible to communicate can legitimately be immediately shot dead when they've outstayed their welcome?
I like how you just ignored the paragraph right after the one you quoted. Here is the relevant part again: "As for the house guest, no you shouldn't have the right to shoot them. In general, it's not acceptable in my view to use lethal force against somebody occupying your house without your consent."
Steve3007 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 4:04 am
Clearly the above is absurd, but the absurdity is a reflection of your ridiculous analogy between adult human intruders and foetuses.
Huh? I never made that analogy. As far as I can tell, you were the one who brought up house guests.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 15th, 2020, 9:50 am
by Terrapin Station
Not wrong on my view. And I wouldn't have a time limit on abortions.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 15th, 2020, 4:49 pm
by LuckyR
Terrapin Station wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 9:50 am
Not wrong on my view. And I wouldn't have a time limit on abortions.
You're cool with 5 minutes before delivery of a full term infant?

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 15th, 2020, 5:05 pm
by Terrapin Station
LuckyR wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 4:49 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 9:50 am
Not wrong on my view. And I wouldn't have a time limit on abortions.
You're cool with 5 minutes before delivery of a full term infant?
Yes.

Abortion being permissible doesn't hinge on the developmental stage of the baby on my view. It hinges on whether the baby is wholly contained within the mother.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 15th, 2020, 5:09 pm
by Steve3007
Terrapin Station wrote:Abortion being permissible doesn't hinge on the developmental stage of the baby on my view. It hinges on whether the baby is wholly contained within the mother.
In your view, is it permissible to kill the baby, perhaps by stabbing, so long as that doesn't harm the mother, as the mother is in the process of giving birth, but before the head of the baby has fully emerged (assuming that the mother agrees to this)?

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 15th, 2020, 5:58 pm
by Terrapin Station
Steve3007 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 5:09 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:Abortion being permissible doesn't hinge on the developmental stage of the baby on my view. It hinges on whether the baby is wholly contained within the mother.
In your view, is it permissible to kill the baby, perhaps by stabbing, so long as that doesn't harm the mother, as the mother is in the process of giving birth, but before the head of the baby has fully emerged (assuming that the mother agrees to this)?
I'd restrict it to when the baby is wholly contained inside the mother. But I'd sooner agree to infanticide in some cases than agree to prohibiting abortion at any point.

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Posted: January 15th, 2020, 6:16 pm
by Steve3007
Terrapin Station wrote:I'd restrict it to when the baby is wholly contained inside the mother. But I'd sooner agree to infanticide in some cases than agree to prohibiting abortion at any point.
If there was a binary choice between the two, with no option in between, then I would consider your position more reasonable than simply permitting infanticide on the basis of what I see as the arbitrary question of the baby's location.

My own view begins with the acknowledgement that there is no possibility of demonstrating, in any sense, an entirely objective argument as to when abortion should be allowed. I think this, as with many problems, is because it involves the need to impose an arbitrary binary distinction on a process that is a continuum. That is the process of a single cell created from the parents' bodies developing into a separate human being. It is not possible to objectively state a moment when a human being is present. But, since that distinction has to be made for the purposes of legislation and action, I would base it on various criteria that vary from case to case. The one constant criterion would be technical biological decisions as to when we deem the foetus to be sentient.

So I think that both affording rights to single celled embryos and denying rights to near-newborn babies are equally absurd/abhorrent positions in our culture. Though obviously if I lived in a different culture (ancient Sparta, perhaps) I might feel differently.