Is abortion wrong?

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » January 15th, 2020, 8:06 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 5:05 pm
LuckyR wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 4:49 pm


You're cool with 5 minutes before delivery of a full term infant?
Yes.

Abortion being permissible doesn't hinge on the developmental stage of the baby on my view. It hinges on whether the baby is wholly contained within the mother.
We are all entitled to our opinions, though I am happy that essentially no one in the legislature nor the judiciary agrees with you.
"As usual... it depends."

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Terrapin Station » January 15th, 2020, 8:23 pm

LuckyR wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 8:06 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 5:05 pm


Yes.

Abortion being permissible doesn't hinge on the developmental stage of the baby on my view. It hinges on whether the baby is wholly contained within the mother.
We are all entitled to our opinions, though I am happy that essentially no one in the legislature nor the judiciary agrees with you.
Sure, and that's going to be the case for a great many issues. I have a lot of unusual views. ;-)

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Terrapin Station » January 15th, 2020, 8:28 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 6:16 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:I'd restrict it to when the baby is wholly contained inside the mother. But I'd sooner agree to infanticide in some cases than agree to prohibiting abortion at any point.
If there was a binary choice between the two, with no option in between, then I would consider your position more reasonable than simply permitting infanticide on the basis of what I see as the arbitrary question of the baby's location.

My own view begins with the acknowledgement that there is no possibility of demonstrating, in any sense, an entirely objective argument as to when abortion should be allowed. I think this, as with many problems, is because it involves the need to impose an arbitrary binary distinction on a process that is a continuum. That is the process of a single cell created from the parents' bodies developing into a separate human being. It is not possible to objectively state a moment when a human being is present. But, since that distinction has to be made for the purposes of legislation and action, I would base it on various criteria that vary from case to case. The one constant criterion would be technical biological decisions as to when we deem the foetus to be sentient.

So I think that both affording rights to single celled embryos and denying rights to near-newborn babies are equally absurd/abhorrent positions in our culture. Though obviously if I lived in a different culture (ancient Sparta, perhaps) I might feel differently.
I'm not very compelled by cultural norms.

Any ethical criterion is essentially going to be arbitrary in the sense you're using that term above.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 4th, 2020, 11:48 am

The way I see it is the moment a being formed its first cell it is alive ( it contains the aspects of a creature being alive similar to other organisms) , and since human DNA created and is the basis of its structure it is human. When you fall under this category (and not have committed any injustices) typically you are supposed to be a part of a social contract of protection of life. Despite this person not being able to reciprocate it does not mean they lose their right to be protected. For comparison you can't kill a person for being in a vegetable state. Even though in this case the person is inhabiting the body of someone else it did not have a choice in doing so. It is innocent because it had no conscious choice in its inhabitance, and to kill an innocent just because you do not wish to be pregnant with it is unjust.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Greta » February 4th, 2020, 3:08 pm

Humans routinely - and joyfully - kill innocents. Cows, sheep and goats who are vastly more sentient than any foetus. It's not even close. These creatures are not only innocent, but have relationships with each other. They groom, nurture and protect each other.

And we happily torture them in concentration camp conditions before killing them and eating their flesh. Even many fish, which we happily yank from their homes with a hook through the mouth, are far more aware than human foetuses.

The truth is that people do not care one bit about harming innocents, but they can form sentimental attachments to cute things like babies, puppies and the like. Worry about killing innocents cannot be seen as a reasonable consideration in this issue. As I say, for humans, killing innocents is sport, recreation and the meal of choice.

We even usually eschew plant-based foods that would keep us perfectly healthy so as to enjoy the feeling and taste of flesh tearing in your teeth - and the flesh is ALWAYS that of an innocent.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Terrapin Station » February 4th, 2020, 5:09 pm

Wdk7 wrote:
February 4th, 2020, 11:48 am
The way I see it is the moment a being formed its first cell it is alive ( it contains the aspects of a creature being alive similar to other organisms) , and since human DNA created and is the basis of its structure it is human. When you fall under this category (and not have committed any injustices) typically you are supposed to be a part of a social contract of protection of life. Despite this person not being able to reciprocate it does not mean they lose their right to be protected. For comparison you can't kill a person for being in a vegetable state. Even though in this case the person is inhabiting the body of someone else it did not have a choice in doing so. It is innocent because it had no conscious choice in its inhabitance, and to kill an innocent just because you do not wish to be pregnant with it is unjust.
I don't see it as sufficient that we're talking about a human. I'd make it so that you don't need consent to kill another human that's completely inside your body (period--whatever age we'd be talking about re the other human).

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » February 5th, 2020, 2:25 am

Wdk7 wrote:
February 4th, 2020, 11:48 am
The way I see it is the moment a being formed its first cell it is alive ( it contains the aspects of a creature being alive similar to other organisms) , and since human DNA created and is the basis of its structure it is human. When you fall under this category (and not have committed any injustices) typically you are supposed to be a part of a social contract of protection of life. Despite this person not being able to reciprocate it does not mean they lose their right to be protected. For comparison you can't kill a person for being in a vegetable state. Even though in this case the person is inhabiting the body of someone else it did not have a choice in doing so. It is innocent because it had no conscious choice in its inhabitance, and to kill an innocent just because you do not wish to be pregnant with it is unjust.
Are you familiar with the concept of autonomy?
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 6th, 2020, 11:48 am

LuckyR wrote:
February 5th, 2020, 2:25 am
Wdk7 wrote:
February 4th, 2020, 11:48 am
The way I see it is the moment a being formed its first cell it is alive ( it contains the aspects of a creature being alive similar to other organisms) , and since human DNA created and is the basis of its structure it is human. When you fall under this category (and not have committed any injustices) typically you are supposed to be a part of a social contract of protection of life. Despite this person not being able to reciprocate it does not mean they lose their right to be protected. For comparison you can't kill a person for being in a vegetable state. Even though in this case the person is inhabiting the body of someone else it did not have a choice in doing so. It is innocent because it had no conscious choice in its inhabitance, and to kill an innocent just because you do not wish to be pregnant with it is unjust.
Are you familiar with the concept of autonomy?
The idea that you have jurisdiction over your person. I agree with this to the point it affects the life of another. If it does not bring you life threatening harm to carry it to term It shouldn't be killed. Also, if you do conssider a fetus to be a person would it not also have a right to autonomy?

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 6th, 2020, 12:05 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
February 4th, 2020, 5:09 pm

I don't see it as sufficient that we're talking about a human. I'd make it so that you don't need consent to kill another human that's completely inside your body (period--whatever age we'd be talking about re the other human).
1) If it's not human than what would you call it?
2) If that human is there due to (what is most often the case) your own decisions why does it deserve to die.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 6th, 2020, 12:50 pm

Greta wrote:
February 4th, 2020, 3:08 pm
Humans routinely - and joyfully - kill innocents. Cows, sheep and goats who are vastly more sentient than any foetus. It's not even close. These creatures are not only innocent, but have relationships with each other. They groom, nurture and protect each other.

And we happily torture them in concentration camp conditions before killing them and eating their flesh. Even many fish, which we happily yank from their homes with a hook through the mouth, are far more aware than human foetuses.

The truth is that people do not care one bit about harming innocents, but they can form sentimental attachments to cute things like babies, puppies and the like. Worry about killing innocents cannot be seen as a reasonable consideration in this issue. As I say, for humans, killing innocents is sport, recreation and the meal of choice.

We even usually eschew plant-based foods that would keep us perfectly healthy so as to enjoy the feeling and taste of flesh tearing in your teeth - and the flesh is ALWAYS that of an innocent.
You're bringing up animal rights which I think should be discussed in a different forum, but you're trying to make a point that I still want to adress. The idea that people are currently doing things that you disagree with that are worse than or similar to what you think is okay is not an argument for your case. Yes there are people who do not care about innocents, but that does not mean what they're doing is right. This is how I see your argument but in different context. "There are people out there that rape and murder all I do is beat my wife, so instead of trying to stop me you should go stop them." To be honest your comment seems to be more of a red herring to the discussion.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Greta » February 6th, 2020, 3:39 pm

Wdk7 wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 12:50 pm
Greta wrote:
February 4th, 2020, 3:08 pm
Humans routinely - and joyfully - kill innocents. Cows, sheep and goats who are vastly more sentient than any foetus. It's not even close. These creatures are not only innocent, but have relationships with each other. They groom, nurture and protect each other.

And we happily torture them in concentration camp conditions before killing them and eating their flesh. Even many fish, which we happily yank from their homes with a hook through the mouth, are far more aware than human foetuses.

The truth is that people do not care one bit about harming innocents, but they can form sentimental attachments to cute things like babies, puppies and the like. Worry about killing innocents cannot be seen as a reasonable consideration in this issue. As I say, for humans, killing innocents is sport, recreation and the meal of choice.

We even usually eschew plant-based foods that would keep us perfectly healthy so as to enjoy the feeling and taste of flesh tearing in your teeth - and the flesh is ALWAYS that of an innocent.
You're bringing up animal rights which I think should be discussed in a different forum, but you're trying to make a point that I still want to adress. The idea that people are currently doing things that you disagree with that are worse than or similar to what you think is okay is not an argument for your case. Yes there are people who do not care about innocents, but that does not mean what they're doing is right. This is how I see your argument but in different context. "There are people out there that rape and murder all I do is beat my wife, so instead of trying to stop me you should go stop them." To be honest your comment seems to be more of a red herring to the discussion.
Unthinking killing and torture of other species absolutely belongs in this forum. After rights of the mother regarding her own body, animal cruelty is the very most pertinent issue of the abortion debate, and especially so when people talk about killing "innocents".

Further, your example is not equivalent. A truer example would be upset over the killing of local people while happily promoting the killing of foreigners, and maybe even engaging in a bit of mild killing for sport and entertainment on the side.

The easiest way to dismiss a difficult argument is the say it doesn't belong. Human mistreatment of other animals is one of the most inconvenient arguments against the "sanctity of life" abortion claims, because no issue probes more deeply into the existential circumstances of being a life form on Earth.

If we squarely face our double standards, inherent brutality and and the savage nature of life with honesty, the emotive and irrational arguments against abortion dissolve.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 6th, 2020, 4:36 pm

The way you phrase it makes it look like you think I agree with the killing of animals, but that would be you strawmaning my position. Just because I agree with a certain side of an argument that may be associated with certain sets of views on other topics, doesn't mean I agree with those other views. And yes, you can say that the same argument I gave can be used in the argument against the abuse of animals. That does not make my argument any less valid in this case. It just means the argument can be extended to other arguments with similar circumstance of other innocents being butchered.
Also I wasn't running away from your argument. If you want to have a discussion of animal rights on a forum about abortion you can. Especially seeing as you are a site admin, but it would seem to me that you are trying to hide behind the injustice being done to animals to avoid the injustice being done to people who have not yet left their mother's womb.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Terrapin Station » February 6th, 2020, 4:36 pm

Wdk7 wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 12:05 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
February 4th, 2020, 5:09 pm

I don't see it as sufficient that we're talking about a human. I'd make it so that you don't need consent to kill another human that's completely inside your body (period--whatever age we'd be talking about re the other human).
1) If it's not human than what would you call it?
Another way to write what I said. "I agree it's human. I don't see that as sufficient for suggesting a moral stance."
2) If that human is there due to (what is most often the case) your own decisions why does it deserve to die.
I see it as "Persons that wholly contain another person--however the person being contained got there, whether by invitation or not--deserve to be able to choose what to do, including killing, the person wholly contained inside of them."

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 6th, 2020, 4:52 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 4:36 pm
Wdk7 wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 12:05 pm


1) If it's not human than what would you call it?
Another way to write what I said. "I agree it's human. I don't see that as sufficient for suggesting a moral stance."
2) If that human is there due to (what is most often the case) your own decisions why does it deserve to die.
I see it as "Persons that wholly contain another person--however the person being contained got there, whether by invitation or not--deserve to be able to choose what to do, including killing, the person wholly contained inside of them."
This would suggest that the autonomy of the mother supersedes the autonomy of the unborn child. I find them to be equal as long as life is not being threatened due to uncontrollable circumstances.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » February 7th, 2020, 4:38 am

Wdk7 wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 11:48 am
LuckyR wrote:
February 5th, 2020, 2:25 am


Are you familiar with the concept of autonomy?
The idea that you have jurisdiction over your person. I agree with this to the point it affects the life of another. If it does not bring you life threatening harm to carry it to term It shouldn't be killed. Also, if you do conssider a fetus to be a person would it not also have a right to autonomy?
Exactly. A fetus is a potential person, not a person. And just as a parent has extreme powers over their children when they are people, the mother has even more decision making powers over a potential person.
"As usual... it depends."

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