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What Is Reverse Psychology?

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Greta
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by Greta » September 28th, 2018, 5:08 pm

LuckyR wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 1:36 pm
Greta wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 4:29 pm
As for those trying to kill themselves with drugs (mostly booze & cigs, but also others in some cases), I can think of three of my nephew's old school pals plus and old friend of mine - none can compete in today's world. The cause is almost entirely economic. I know others who live cleanly but are on the verge of homelessness - some young, some my generation. There is growing despair at the situation with employment and accommodation
I have no doubt that your observations are accurate. However, it is my opinion that what you are describing is a historical constant, that does not account for the dramatic (more than quadrupling of drug deaths in less than two decades) change in the types of illegal drugs used, since the total percentage of illegal users (using within the last month) has only increased from about 8 to 9% in the same time period.

Your first paragraph does provide such a partial explanation, though it is not clear to me what era your first paragraph's observations were gathered from. If it was the late 60s/early 70s then I agree with you.
Yes, late 60s and 70s.

However, given that suicide rates are rapidly rising, the use of legal and illegal drugs for a "slow suicide" will logically also be increasing. Many young people can't see a place for them in the world. Once you could start at the bottom and work up. Now you can start as a waiter and continue in the role forever, or until burnt out. They are also struggling to find affordable accommodation and homelessness rates are soaring, up 4.6% in the last five years.

This is to be expected. As governments increasingly choose to represent companies rather than individual taxpayers, the least prepared and fortunate of the latter will logically start dying out - exactly as intended but never stated.

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LuckyR
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by LuckyR » September 30th, 2018, 2:13 am

Greta wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 5:08 pm
LuckyR wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 1:36 pm


I have no doubt that your observations are accurate. However, it is my opinion that what you are describing is a historical constant, that does not account for the dramatic (more than quadrupling of drug deaths in less than two decades) change in the types of illegal drugs used, since the total percentage of illegal users (using within the last month) has only increased from about 8 to 9% in the same time period.

Your first paragraph does provide such a partial explanation, though it is not clear to me what era your first paragraph's observations were gathered from. If it was the late 60s/early 70s then I agree with you.
Yes, late 60s and 70s.

However, given that suicide rates are rapidly rising, the use of legal and illegal drugs for a "slow suicide" will logically also be increasing. Many young people can't see a place for them in the world. Once you could start at the bottom and work up. Now you can start as a waiter and continue in the role forever, or until burnt out. They are also struggling to find affordable accommodation and homelessness rates are soaring, up 4.6% in the last five years.

This is to be expected. As governments increasingly choose to represent companies rather than individual taxpayers, the least prepared and fortunate of the latter will logically start dying out - exactly as intended but never stated.
You are correct that upward mobility is decreasing in the US, and it wasn't particularly high to begin with. I don't disagree that those without legit prospects find it too easy to self medicate their economically sourced depression. Unfortunately putting rocket fuel into lawnmower engines typically ends badly.
"As usual... it depends."

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Greta
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by Greta » September 30th, 2018, 9:25 pm

LuckyR wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 2:13 am
Greta wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 5:08 pm

Yes, late 60s and 70s.

However, given that suicide rates are rapidly rising, the use of legal and illegal drugs for a "slow suicide" will logically also be increasing. Many young people can't see a place for them in the world. Once you could start at the bottom and work up. Now you can start as a waiter and continue in the role forever, or until burnt out. They are also struggling to find affordable accommodation and homelessness rates are soaring, up 4.6% in the last five years.

This is to be expected. As governments increasingly choose to represent companies rather than individual taxpayers, the least prepared and fortunate of the latter will logically start dying out - exactly as intended but never stated.
You are correct that upward mobility is decreasing in the US, and it wasn't particularly high to begin with. I don't disagree that those without legit prospects find it too easy to self medicate their economically sourced depression. Unfortunately putting rocket fuel into lawnmower engines typically ends badly.
The way I see it, if a society absolutely depends on a pool of unemployed people to keep wages and inflation under control, then it was a responsibility to provide - if wanted - relative safe and enjoyable medicants as compensation for being left out.

To require a proportion of the population to live in in poverty so others may prosper, and not even allow them the option of cheap escapism, is cruel. It's as if governments are simply grinding them into the dirt. Governments and industry know that some people have no prospects but they pretend that they do to avoid setting precedents or having a public perception of being soft on "dole bludgers".

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LuckyR
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by LuckyR » October 1st, 2018, 2:11 am

Greta wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:25 pm
LuckyR wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 2:13 am


You are correct that upward mobility is decreasing in the US, and it wasn't particularly high to begin with. I don't disagree that those without legit prospects find it too easy to self medicate their economically sourced depression. Unfortunately putting rocket fuel into lawnmower engines typically ends badly.
The way I see it, if a society absolutely depends on a pool of unemployed people to keep wages and inflation under control, then it was a responsibility to provide - if wanted - relative safe and enjoyable medicants as compensation for being left out.

To require a proportion of the population to live in in poverty so others may prosper, and not even allow them the option of cheap escapism, is cruel. It's as if governments are simply grinding them into the dirt. Governments and industry know that some people have no prospects but they pretend that they do to avoid setting precedents or having a public perception of being soft on "dole bludgers".
While I don't disagree with your commentary, to me the higher priority (than the chronically unemployed homeless) is the death of the middle class down into the working poor.
"As usual... it depends."

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 1st, 2018, 3:52 am

LuckyR wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 2:11 am
Greta wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:25 pm

The way I see it, if a society absolutely depends on a pool of unemployed people to keep wages and inflation under control, then it was a responsibility to provide - if wanted - relative safe and enjoyable medicants as compensation for being left out.

To require a proportion of the population to live in in poverty so others may prosper, and not even allow them the option of cheap escapism, is cruel. It's as if governments are simply grinding them into the dirt. Governments and industry know that some people have no prospects but they pretend that they do to avoid setting precedents or having a public perception of being soft on "dole bludgers".
While I don't disagree with your commentary, to me the higher priority (than the chronically unemployed homeless) is the death of the middle class down into the working poor.
What do you mean? You think the MC should be pushed into poverty too? Or think they need protecting?

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LuckyR
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by LuckyR » October 3rd, 2018, 1:42 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 3:52 am
LuckyR wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 2:11 am


While I don't disagree with your commentary, to me the higher priority (than the chronically unemployed homeless) is the death of the middle class down into the working poor.
What do you mean? You think the MC should be pushed into poverty too? Or think they need protecting?
I believe the healthiest economic model has a thriving middle class, both in the sense of it growing by being joined by the upwardly mobile poor and by graduating folks into the upper economic group from the middle class.
"As usual... it depends."

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 3rd, 2018, 6:33 pm

LuckyR wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 1:42 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 3:52 am


What do you mean? You think the MC should be pushed into poverty too? Or think they need protecting?
I believe the healthiest economic model has a thriving middle class, both in the sense of it growing by being joined by the upwardly mobile poor and by graduating folks into the upper economic group from the middle class.
Are you using "middle class" as an American would?

As Obama did - meaning everyone not rich?

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LuckyR
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by LuckyR » October 4th, 2018, 2:33 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 6:33 pm
LuckyR wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 1:42 am


I believe the healthiest economic model has a thriving middle class, both in the sense of it growing by being joined by the upwardly mobile poor and by graduating folks into the upper economic group from the middle class.
Are you using "middle class" as an American would?

As Obama did - meaning everyone not rich?
No, I am happy to use standard economic theory definitions.
"As usual... it depends."

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 4th, 2018, 5:39 am

LuckyR wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 2:33 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 6:33 pm


Are you using "middle class" as an American would?

As Obama did - meaning everyone not rich?
No, I am happy to use standard economic theory definitions.
Helping the middle class is a recipe for inequality. Feed the roots and the plant thrives.

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LuckyR
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by LuckyR » October 4th, 2018, 6:07 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 5:39 am
LuckyR wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 2:33 am


No, I am happy to use standard economic theory definitions.
Helping the middle class is a recipe for inequality. Feed the roots and the plant thrives.
If the question is economic stimulus, then you are correct, ie giving (feeding) wealth to the poor ends up driving the economy. However, if the economy is doing well and you are determining which sector's health is a sign (not necessarily a cause) of a healthy economy, an expanding middle class (which represents successful graduation out of the poorer classes) is a great sign.
"As usual... it depends."

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 5th, 2018, 9:32 am

LuckyR wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 6:07 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 5:39 am


Helping the middle class is a recipe for inequality. Feed the roots and the plant thrives.
If the question is economic stimulus, then you are correct, ie giving (feeding) wealth to the poor ends up driving the economy. However, if the economy is doing well and you are determining which sector's health is a sign (not necessarily a cause) of a healthy economy, an expanding middle class (which represents successful graduation out of the poorer classes) is a great sign.
Whilst I agree that a thriving MC is a good indicator, I do not hold with the idea that stimulus TO the MC is better that handing cash out to the poor. The MC will find a way to make the poor spend that cash with the MC. Poor tend to spend more locally, whilst the higher up the ladder you go, money tends to get stashed away, off shore, spent on high range foreign pursuits and items which do not tend to make jobs..

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LuckyR
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by LuckyR » October 5th, 2018, 11:33 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 5th, 2018, 9:32 am
LuckyR wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 6:07 pm


If the question is economic stimulus, then you are correct, ie giving (feeding) wealth to the poor ends up driving the economy. However, if the economy is doing well and you are determining which sector's health is a sign (not necessarily a cause) of a healthy economy, an expanding middle class (which represents successful graduation out of the poorer classes) is a great sign.
Whilst I agree that a thriving MC is a good indicator, I do not hold with the idea that stimulus TO the MC is better that handing cash out to the poor. The MC will find a way to make the poor spend that cash with the MC. Poor tend to spend more locally, whilst the higher up the ladder you go, money tends to get stashed away, off shore, spent on high range foreign pursuits and items which do not tend to make jobs..
We , of course , are in complete agreement
"As usual... it depends."

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: What Is Reverse Psychology?

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 5th, 2018, 4:29 pm

LuckyR wrote:
October 5th, 2018, 11:33 am
We , of course , are in complete agreement

Do you have any interest in MMT?

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