Is suicide immoral?

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Renee
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Renee »

Platos stepchild wrote:You suggested that suicide is a genetic predisposition. But, clearly it must be passed down before taking affect. (Otherwise, such a predisposition would quickly be edited out of the genepool). It's unclear why this should be so. What guarantee is there that the carrier of a suicide gene would precreate before killing himself?
There is no guarantee. My grandfather had five issues; my uncle had none.

It is natural that it is unclear. It IS a random mutation.
Platos stepchild wrote:Note: I draw a distinction between genetically predisposed suicide, and altruism. Altruism is death-with-a-purpose, whereas suicide is just death.
That's exactly how I treated the matter; with a mutual understanding of my grampa's and uncle's suicides were not altruistic but genetically predisposed, due to a mutation.

-- Updated December 13th, 2016, 10:20 pm to add the following --
Platos stepchild wrote:Here's a question: I'm contemplating suicide because I'm futureless. But, I still have a natural aversion to death. I'm teetering with ambivalence. So, how do I overcome that aversion?
By developing a pain that overpowers the aversion. Much like a guy who has a tooth to be pulled, has an aversion to go to the dentist, but after the toothache becomes intolerable, he will go and visit the dentist.

Successful suicides have so much pain during life, that it helps them over the hurdle of the natural and very strong fear of death.
Ignorance is power.
Platos stepchild
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Platos stepchild »

My luck is worse and worse. I'm about there. No; **** it. I am there.
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Ozymandias
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Ozymandias »

Hey friend if you're there please talk to me, outside of philosophy. Or we can talk about philosophy to- but you're mistaken if you think death is the answer to anything- as we've said, death is death and there is nothing to be gained from nothing
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Ozymandias
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Ozymandias »

I'm not sure if my post here will get through soon since I'm still trial, but you sound totally serious about this stuff, Plato, and I'm asking you to take more time to think and talk about it.
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Lucylu
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Lucylu »

Platos stepchild wrote:I want to rephrase the question, and instead ask is my suicide immoral.
Ah. Well, I think it depends on your dependants and responsibilities. The majority of us will have someone who would have to endure real grief when we die. So a good question is, have you ever experienced real grief, eg of losing a sibling, parent, child, best friend or partner? For me, whenever I have contemplated life and death, I have always hit a wall when I think of my mother sitting alone in her house, crying in grief. Losing a child must be the worst pain imaginable, and I just could not do that to her.

And then there are real dependants. Do you have any children? If so, I think that you have a responsibility to live for them at least until they are older and have a strong support network around them.

You also have to deal with the responsibility to yourself. Maybe this is not an 'I want to die' but an 'I don't want to live like this'. What is it in particular that you cant stand about living? I would suggest having a complete change of life first- Tell your friends and family you need time to yourself to reflect, cut out alcohol etc, travel the world if necessary and change your perspective. Do something completely out of the box. Get some adrenalin pumping through you.

It would be a shame if it was simply a wrong belief or a deep frustration that ended your life when the next chapter was going to be great? It is often 'darkest before the dawn' and as they say we 'have to hit rock bottom' before we change. This is cliche but was so true in my case. Maybe this is the point at which you suddenly realise what you want out of life and whats important to you. You can start over ie become an adult- truly taking responsibility for your own life and living 'on purpose', taking responsibility for your own behaviour/ decisions, admitting you were wrong? If you are blaming everyone and and everything else for your feelings then you will feel like s**t, and completely powerless.

What do you want out of life that you aren't getting now? Whats stopping you from wiping the slate clean, moving, deleting all your contacts, retraining and starting over?

In short, no. I don't think suicide is immoral, per se, but it can be irresponsible, selfish and a terrible waste.

Happy people don't commit suicide, and there is a train of thought that says happiness is a choice rather than a predisposition. I'm of two minds on the subject. I do appreciate that some people are almost pathologically miserable but I also believe that people change. Changing a core belief and taking responsibility for ourselves can make the world of difference.
Ozymandias wrote: Philosophical discussion is different from philosophical advice, though.
If you're looking for advice, I firmly believe that unless you're in a vegetative state or a medically confirmed state of permanent pain, suicide is more a question of wisdom than of morality or ethics, and if so, I absolutely think it is unwise. Principally, because life is almost always guaranteed to change, and often it is for the better.
Sage advice. Things do change. It is somehow very difficult to imagine that our feelings will change as we seem to have a predisposition for self righteousness and difficulty really planning for or seeing ourselves in the future. These things aid our short term survival in most cases but can also cause a great deal of emotional discomfort along the way.

-- Updated December 14th, 2016, 12:24 pm to add the following --
Platos stepchild wrote:
Here's a question: I'm contemplating suicide because I'm futureless.
There's your wrong belief. I bet you repeat that to yourself a thousand times a day.

N.B You wanted to have a real discussion about suicide, warts and all, but instead you've begun emotional blackmail of other posters by threatening to commit suicide and asking for tips. Maybe you get off on this aspect of it..the power over others, the drama etc?
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
Platos stepchild
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Platos stepchild »

No drama, and no shock value intended. I wanted to simplify my despair; but, I really don't know how to do that. For anyone committing suicide, there's only one chance to get it right. I have no one else to ask, or to get advise from. If it seems macabre to ask such questions in a public forum, then I truly apologize. I'm new to this whole having-no-future thing.
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Lucylu
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Lucylu »

Platos stepchild wrote:No drama, and no shock value intended. I wanted to simplify my despair; but, I really don't know how to do that. For anyone committing suicide, there's only one chance to get it right. I have no one else to ask, or to get advise from. If it seems macabre to ask such questions in a public forum, then I truly apologize. I'm new to this whole having-no-future thing.
Please expand on this 'having-no-future thing'?

And, do you think suicide is immoral?
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
Grunth
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Grunth »

Platos stepchild wrote: I'm new to this whole having-no-future thing.
There is irony here. Having no future IS a future thing to have. One is imagining a future of no-future. So therefore you do have a future-thing.
Platos stepchild
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Platos stepchild »

When I say I'm futureless, what I mean is I have no purpose, no job, and soon no home. I have no incentive to be productive; I don't feel that I can contribute anything to anyone. And yes; I sincerely believe that suicide is immoral. It's an unconscionable crime against the mystery of life. The reason why I'm despondent and am contemplating suicide is because I feel like I'm an unconscionable crime against life. I'm beginning to see myself as anti-life.
Grunth
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Grunth »

Platos stepchild wrote:When I say I'm futureless, what I mean is I have no purpose, no job, and soon no home. I have no incentive to be productive; I don't feel that I can contribute anything to anyone. And yes; I sincerely believe that suicide is immoral. It's an unconscionable crime against the mystery of life. The reason why I'm despondent and am contemplating suicide is because I feel like I'm an unconscionable crime against life. I'm beginning to see myself as anti-life.
Are you then saying it is immoral to have no job or be homeless?
Platos stepchild
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Platos stepchild »

Grunth wrote: Are you saying it is immoral to have no job or be homeless?
Not at all. I was once homeless for four long years, with a wife and two small children. That was over 20 years ago. I just don't have it in me to face all that again, alone and being so much older. Frankly, I'm scared. And that fear is eating away at me. At some crucial tipping-point, death will be preferable to living with such a debilitating fear. And, that tipping-point will probably be my upcoming 60th birthday.
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Lucylu
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Lucylu »

Platos stepchild wrote:When I say I'm futureless, what I mean is I have no purpose, no job, and soon no home. I have no incentive to be productive; I don't feel that I can contribute anything to anyone. And yes; I sincerely believe that suicide is immoral. It's an unconscionable crime against the mystery of life. The reason why I'm despondent and am contemplating suicide is because I feel like I'm an unconscionable crime against life. I'm beginning to see myself as anti-life.
Interesting. Well, firstly I would say that you are better off coming out of the depressed closet and asking for help. And no, by depressed I am not dismissing you as just ill or wrong or belittling your pain. I mean depressed as in completely emotionally exhausted and worn down to the point where you are unable to function or cope with life. Your apathy, and self loathing speak volumes.

Social services is there precisely because these sorts of things do happen to many of us at some point in our lives. I know that it may feel like no one has every felt the way you do or that no one has ever been as worthless but I'm afraid (another cliche coming)..you are not alone. And by saying this, again, I am in no way belittling your suffering but life is hard and depression (profound exhaustion) is common. People just don't like to talk about it in polite company. I'm not sure why. Perhaps they fear its contagious or want to distance themselves from it; they don't want to believe it could happen to them too. Which of course it could, and probably will. In time, you will see who has gone through the same things as you and value them all the more for it. If you can depend on any good friends or family members during this time then it will also strengthen your relationships and show you who your real friends are but really you need to just focus on yourself for now.

If you'd broken your back you wouldn't berate yourself for not being able to work- so you should view it as a broken spirit or emotional system. Ekhart Tolle calls it the 'pain body'. Medical science hasn't worked out how to explain it very well yet.

You're in the eye of the storm at the moment, so to speak, so its hard to see your way out and naturally the only option left appears to be to end it all. But that would be 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' (I'm really lovin' my metaphors today!). At some point we feel too tired and lonely to face the world, and socially, it does take a lot of energy to face the world.

We don't believe that depression will pass when we're in it, but it does. I can personally vouch for that.

So, firstly..commit to the fact that you feel like this and it will take some time, maybe a year or two before you feel like your head is above water again. See your doctor, get signed off work. Get housing benefit. Sort out a safe little home for yourself where you can recuperate. Declutter and take care of yourself. If you're in the Western world, I'm guessing that you can get housing benefit of some sort which will support you until you feel ready to return to work.

Secondly, I would learn self compassion. Self doubt is fine, and healthy but without self compassion as well, you will be miserable. Its ok to go through a bad time. You will come out the other side stronger. You will, somewhere along the way, start to enjoy life again, start to laugh, start to value yourself again. Maybe after you've had a good rest you can start off with some voluntary work, to take the pressure off. Try some mindfulness meditation or counselling or whatever works for you.

Anyway..I agree with your views on suicide. I felt the same way. Life is so miraculous and wonderful. It seems so absurd to throw it all away even if that's what your mind is telling you to do. Your mind is wrong.

(I'm not sure how philosophical all that was, but I hope it helps).
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
Platos stepchild
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Platos stepchild »

That sounds so good, and so sane. But, as bizarre as this must sound, it'd be like cheating on my pain. That's pretty messed up, I know.
Grunth
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Grunth »

Platos stepchild wrote:
Grunth wrote: Are you saying it is immoral to have no job or be homeless?
Not at all. I was once homeless for four long years, with a wife and two small children. That was over 20 years ago. I just don't have it in me to face all that again, alone and being so much older. Frankly, I'm scared. And that fear is eating away at me. At some crucial tipping-point, death will be preferable to living with such a debilitating fear. And, that tipping-point will probably be my upcoming 60th birthday.
You keep talking about the past and then calling it the future. It is the past which you are dwelling on. The future doesn't exist. Everyone is futureless.

Anyway, you are identifying yourself as being the thoughts you experience. You should just notice that impulse.
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Lucylu
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Re: Is suicide immoral?

Post by Lucylu »

Platos stepchild wrote:That sounds so good, and so sane. But, as bizarre as this must sound, it'd be like cheating on my pain. That's pretty messed up, I know.
I know exactly what you mean Platos! God, that brings back memories! There is an exquisite masochistic pleasure to the pain and it becomes so important to us and we treasure it, even when it hurts ("My precious!!"). The pain is real, but there is a healthy amount of ego involved too. Maybe its Freud's id, I'm not sure. Or maybe its best to view it as an addiction.

It is hard to walk away from all that. Its like another personality starts to develop in the dark. I was absolutely adamant that I liked the 'other me' more than the 'real me' and that I was different from everyone else. Leaving that idea behind and swallowing my pride was like cutting off a leg or something. That's part of the mind's natural self righteousness- I'm sure it stimulates a chemical reward/pleasure centre. The mind is a strange beast indeed! But the reality is that that pain is a 2-dimensional pleasure- if it could sustain you then you would be fulfilled right now. Instead it's making you sick, going round and round and round. Walk away!

All I can say is, if I can do it, you can do it. Be patient with any setbacks and reward even the tiniest progress everyday.

If you want to go in to detail, PM me. I'd be happy to help.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
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