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I Hate Gays

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Spiral Out
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I Hate Gays

Post by Spiral Out » June 30th, 2013, 7:10 am

If I went about stating that I didn't care for gays, their displays of selfishness or what they were doing to society in the unnecessary trouble and conflict that they are creating then I would be promptly labelled a homophobe by most people that I expressed that opinion to.

So then along would come other people to quickly condemn me for my views and they would probably say they didn't like me, my display of selfishness or what I was doing to society in the unnecessary trouble and conflict that I was creating.

So it just becomes an intolerance of intolerance and a homophobophobia of a homophobia, and it just gets passed down in turn.

It can be said that both sides are just trying to maintain the rights of people to be happy and live their lives in a way that satisfies their basic Human needs.

What is the moral difference between those who dislike someone for their views, and those who dislike those who dislike someone for their views?
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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Xris » June 30th, 2013, 8:17 am

I find myself disliking the open display of gay affection. Is that my problem or theirs? You can dislike the act or the open displays but are you entitled to hate? If your hate displays itself in open hostility and that hostility expresses itself in a negative manner we must all oppose your hate. Just like I detest gun tooting Americans who think their rights rise above the safety of their fellow citizens.I might detest them but I would not openly oppose them in a violent manner.

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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Hereandnow » June 30th, 2013, 9:03 am

You sound like a conservative Spiral Out; at least, this is a conservative argument. Conservatives typically say they are the champions of freedom: the freedom of those who think like they do. This rhetorical play is an attempt to make things look equal in the argument. But in the end, they are still the stupid party. Not all intolerances are created equal, so to speak. Principled intolerance is what liberals have: I don't tolerate your intolerance because yours violates a principle of maximum civil liberty. We get this from Mill's harm principle: If it doesn't harm others, you can do it. Of course, harm is a very dynamic variable. The important point of this is that with Mill, you begin with the assumption of a positive right that has to be proved wrong or in need of modification.


In the case of gays marrying and being accepted in general, along with Mill, we assume in the affirmative at the outset. Then the arguments come as to where the harm is done. Interesting to note how Antonin Scalia voted against gay marriage based purely on his nostalgia of the way things have always been, not caring at all about the assumption of a positive right.

Plainly speaking, I simply don't like the gov. telling us what kind of marriage we can have. Who the h**l are they to rule against something that harms no one at all? Where is the basis for judgment against gays? Someone doesn't like it? I don't like oysters, but I'm not going to legislate it.

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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Scott » June 30th, 2013, 9:56 am

This is a great topic. I think it speaks to some of the fundamental confusion prone to so-called 'ethics and morality'. Without something more specific than vague, equivocal condemnations tied loosely and confusingly to controversial or disagreeable ideas, then we end up with this seemingly hypocritical, nonsensical back and forth by people who just cannot understand each other ("I hate gays!" "Well I hate people who hate gays!").

Violence acts a great line in the sand. One can be a homophobe or a racist or a sexist, but still be peaceful. In fact, I would propose that many homophobes, racists or sexists are quite tolerant. The very word tolerant seems to imply a dissatisfied, tentative acceptance. Indeed, if someone walks up to you and says "Well I will tolerate Canadians" doesn't this suggest they think negatively of Canadians? In any case, tolerance aside, we can logically divide homophobes (or racists, sexists, etc.) into two groups, those who want to enforce their homophobia with violence and those who do not. They can do this using statism or as vigilante criminals. Similarly, we can divide those who oppose homophobia into the same two groups. Indeed, if anti-homophobes wanted to make it illegal to talk poorly about gays or to question gay rights, that would be drastic infringement of free speech and those mentioned conservative arguments claiming to uphold freedom would be on point. However, as far as the violence thing goes, I think we see it a lot more on the end of the conservative haters if not simply because they have more support for moving from tolerant hate to violent hate since their hate is traditionalist.
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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Spiral Out » June 30th, 2013, 10:41 am

Xris wrote:I might detest them but I would not openly oppose them in a violent manner.
What if I just ignored them?
Hereandnow wrote:You sound like a conservative Spiral Out
I wouldn't classify myself as a conservative, but that doesn't mean I'm a liberal either. I'm not sure I fall into any one classification.
Hereandnow wrote:Not all intolerances are created equal, so to speak.
Classing someone as a "homophobe" simply because they don't agree with the homosexual agenda is an intolerance equal to any person who is classing someone as a "****" simply because they don't agree with the heterosexual agenda. What's the difference?
Hereandnow wrote:Plainly speaking, I simply don't like the gov. telling us what kind of marriage we can have. Who the h**l are they to rule against something that harms no one at all?
Since the government hands out all of the financial and social benefits, I'd think that they'd have at least some say in the particulars of those benefits.
Scott wrote:One can be a homophobe or a racist or a sexist, but still be peaceful.
This is a very important point to be noted.
Scott wrote:Indeed, if anti-homophobes wanted to make it illegal to talk poorly about gays or to question gay rights, that would be drastic infringement of free speech and those mentioned conservative arguments claiming to uphold freedom would be on point.
As reported by Reuters, Russian parliament has recently passed a law banning "homosexual propaganda". I don't think this is any better than calling people "homophobes" because they disagree with homosexual values.
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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Harbal » June 30th, 2013, 11:28 am

We all dislike certain people or certain groups, that's just human nature. You can't just sterilize it away. If the people you dislike aren't doing any harm then just leave them alone and dislike them from a distance.

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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Xris » June 30th, 2013, 12:09 pm

Open expression of a hatred of jews including the same arguments the Nazis used has to be confronted with more than just words. Accepting the freedom to express ones hatred for any group has to be within limits. No one simply expresses hatred without including a bias view or an underlying ignorance.Can we ever believe hatred as a concept is acceptable ? Hatred is never a simple expression with no detrimental result.

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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Misty » June 30th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Spiral Out wrote:If I went about stating that I didn't care for gays, their displays of selfishness or what they were doing to society in the unnecessary trouble and conflict that they are creating then I would be promptly labelled a homophobe by most people that I expressed that opinion to.

So then along would come other people to quickly condemn me for my views and they would probably say they didn't like me, my display of selfishness or what I was doing to society in the unnecessary trouble and conflict that I was creating.

So it just becomes an intolerance of intolerance and a homophobophobia of a homophobia, and it just gets passed down in turn.

It can be said that both sides are just trying to maintain the rights of people to be happy and live their lives in a way that satisfies their basic Human needs.

What is the moral difference between those who dislike someone for their views, and those who dislike those who dislike someone for their views?

People hating each other for their views is not the same thing as hating other people who are different in biological makeup. That being said, it is not hate per se that is the problem but what one does with hate, does hate stay an opinion or does hate become active violence to others, or repress their right to liberty.
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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Theophane » June 30th, 2013, 12:24 pm

One can be a homophobe or a racist or a sexist, but still be peaceful.
If I'm publishing/distributing anti-gay hate literature, I'm technically non-violent but I sure ain't peaceful. (What is the spiritual opposite of the peace Christ gives?) You don't have to physically fight someone to do them harm. In fact, since the pen is mightier than the sword, you can do more harm to gay people while not physically touching any of them than someone who like to brutally beat up gays and then curb-stomp them?

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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Fanman » June 30th, 2013, 1:14 pm

If someone hates a group of people on the basis of what they cannot control about themselves; such as their sexual orientation, race or gender, then I think the problem lies with the individual doing the hating. Admittedly, there are characteristics within groups of people that are shared, and personally I don't see a problem with "hating" those characteristics (although "hate" is too strong a word), because they are a matter of choice. But to hate someone because of the way that they were created, is just a prejudice. Prejudice is a type of fallacy.
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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Theophane » June 30th, 2013, 3:14 pm

Prejudice has shaped human history. Its influence reaches farther, deeper, and wider than you can imagine. It's not always about hatred or persecution, though. We all have common everyday prejudices we're not even aware of.

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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Fanman » June 30th, 2013, 4:19 pm

Theophane,
Prejudice has shaped human history. Its influence reaches farther, deeper, and wider than you can imagine.
I don't doubt what you say here, but that doesn't make prejudice right, it is a human flaw at best in my opinion.
It's not always about hatred or persecution, though.
Then what is prejudice about?
We all have common everyday prejudices we're not even aware of.
Speak for yourself brother, I am aware of all of my prejudices (except the ones I might develop). I have a particular prejudice towards untidy people, who are able to be tidy. It might be unreasonable of me, but the way I see things, everyone should be tidy. That is obviously fallacious of me though. I mean, why should everyone be tidy?
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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by boagie » June 30th, 2013, 4:44 pm

Well, you will be political incorrect. and that is a little like being a leaper, people find you very distasteful. You have to realize that what your swept up in is a very big movement, much larger that the gay movement though they are interlocked and mutually supportive. The women"s movement is the main battle front and the women's movement have gotten so good at instilling political correctness I think it is now a science, for every person who has a complaint about their life and through this they can identify themselves with a group, they too can join the legion of victims of the white male oppressior. The new women is nurse Ratchet, of the famed, "One flew over the cuckoo's nest, welcome to the new order fellows--lol!! Its time for your medications.
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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Theophane » June 30th, 2013, 5:17 pm

Fanman wrote:I don't doubt what you say here, but that doesn't make prejudice right, it is a human flaw at best in my opinion.
It's just part of our psychology, IMO. Neither wrong nor right. It can lead to a lot of suffering and injustice, no contest there.
Then what is prejudice about?
It's about pre-judging, that's all. Coming to a certain conclusion before you have all the pertinent information.
Speak for yourself brother, I am aware of all of my prejudices (except the ones I might develop). I have a particular prejudice towards untidy people, who are able to be tidy. It might be unreasonable of me, but the way I see things, everyone should be tidy. That is obviously fallacious of me though. I mean, why should everyone be tidy?
Be careful not to conflate prejudice with dislike or discrimination.

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Re: I Hate Gays

Post by Spiral Out » June 30th, 2013, 6:26 pm

Xris wrote:Accepting the freedom to express ones hatred for any group has to be within limits.
What are these limits, precisely? Is it acceptable for me to simply ignore them? If a gay person attempts to start a conversation with me and I simply walk away silently, is that an acceptable expression of my dislike?
Xris wrote:No one simply expresses hatred without including a bias view or an underlying ignorance.
Since you brought up this particular group in your post, does your principle apply to the hatred of the Nazis? Do you hate the Nazis, and are you "including a bias view or an underlying ignorance"?
Xris wrote:Can we ever believe hatred as a concept is acceptable?
Does this mean you cannot hate anything or anyone without being "wrong"?
Xris wrote:Hatred is never a simple expression with no detrimental result.
Potentially, but not necessarily.
Theophane wrote:If I'm publishing/distributing anti-gay hate literature, I'm technically non-violent but I sure ain't peaceful.
What if such literature is simply advising people to ignore them? What if such literature is simply recommending that people vote for certain laws? What if such literature is suggesting that people give gays equal rights in order to simply "silence the nuisance"? That is certainly not violent and it is indeed peaceful.
Theophane wrote:You don't have to physically fight someone to do them harm. In fact, since the pen is mightier than the sword, you can do more harm to gay people while not physically touching any of them than someone who like to brutally beat up gays and then curb-stomp them?
So then must the gay agenda be fully acknowledged and "kindly accepted" by the masses simply to avoid any potential "hurt"? Would it be better to "curb-stomp" them?
Fanman wrote:But to hate someone because of the way that they were created, is just a prejudice. Prejudice is a type of fallacy.
The person who is prejudiced might not have any more choice in the matter than the sexual preferences of the person they're prejudiced against. Is it OK to hate the hater, or to dislike the disliker?
Theophane wrote:We all have common everyday prejudices we're not even aware of.
What do you think your particular prejudice might be, Theophane? Are you brave enough to offer us that for the purposes of discussion?
Theophane wrote:It's about pre-judging, that's all. Coming to a certain conclusion before you have all the pertinent information.
Isn't judging quickly or "pre-judging" one of the necessary survival tools of our ancestors? Granted it might be an unnecessary holdover, but like you said, it is part of our being. So then, are you prejudiced against the prejudiced? Do you seek the "pertinent information" as to why someone has these prejudices before you judge them?
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