Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

Discuss the March 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God’s Plan by Daniel Friedmann.
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Sushan
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Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

Post by Sushan »

The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
Uummm... your title has a typo, it should be: Has the god deceived us THUS science has it all wrong, OR not.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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LuckyR wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 3:18 am
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
Uummm... your title has a typo, it should be: Has the god deceived us THUS science has it all wrong, OR not.
Thank you for the correction. It can be put in that way. If the God has deceived us, then definitely science could have got it all wrong. But can't it be like either this or that? Can it be that science has got it wrong in the first place and the God had nothing to do with that?
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
I'd want some compelling evidence or argument for the speculation that there is a god which made fossils, etc more recently than science suggests, to believe it. Just like if someone claimed the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy mice really did create the earth as an experiment. Because you can make untestable claims about anything which can't be disproven. In which case the sensible thing to do is generally follow the evidence available - and that's what science does.
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Gertie wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 7:58 am
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
I'd want some compelling evidence or argument for the speculation that there is a god which made fossils, etc more recently than science suggests, to believe it. Just like if someone claimed the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy mice really did create the earth as an experiment. Because you can make untestable claims about anything which can't be disproven. In which case the sensible thing to do is generally follow the evidence available - and that's what science does.
I see your point, and that is the issue when it comes to philosophical arguments. One can suggest a point that neither be proved or disproved, and people can argue on that point for eternity. They are usually not based in any evidence, but solely on various speculations and suggestions. The question regarding presence or abscence of a god belongs to this too. So it is better to rely on scientific evidence rather than mere religious statements.
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Sushan wrote:Do you think this is true?
One of the things I'd consider in answering that question would of course be: Why several thousand years? Why not create the Earth 100 years ago, or 1 year ago, or 1 second ago, and then make it look billions of years old?
On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
Is there any conceivable test that could answer that question? If we're going to postulate a God who has done what has been described then nothing we ever do or observe would distinguish the 4 billion year old Earth from the 1 second year old Earth would it? So the method of answering this question is similar to the method of answering the questions of solipsism. It involves asking ourselves what purpose we have in believing any particular one of the infinite number of things that are possible.
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Steve3007 wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 12:00 pm
Sushan wrote:Do you think this is true?
One of the things I'd consider in answering that question would of course be: Why several thousand years? Why not create the Earth 100 years ago, or 1 year ago, or 1 second ago, and then make it look billions of years old?
On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
Is there any conceivable test that could answer that question? If we're going to postulate a God who has done what has been described then nothing we ever do or observe would distinguish the 4 billion year old Earth from the 1 second year old Earth would it? So the method of answering this question is similar to the method of answering the questions of solipsism. It involves asking ourselves what purpose we have in believing any particular one of the infinite number of things that are possible.
I agree. The God could have done that yesterday, and if He is almighty, we could have still believed that the world is billions of years old, though it is actually one day old. If such a God exist and if He has done all these things, then our struggles in science has been of no use.

"How everything began?" is a question that has multiple answers. Yet, I think it is better to believe in something rather than being solipsistic
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Sushan wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:17 am
LuckyR wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 3:18 am
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
Uummm... your title has a typo, it should be: Has the god deceived us THUS science has it all wrong, OR not.
Thank you for the correction. It can be put in that way. If the God has deceived us, then definitely science could have got it all wrong. But can't it be like either this or that? Can it be that science has got it wrong in the first place and the God had nothing to do with that?
Well, you are correct IMO, that if science is all wrong, the reason for it will be unlikely to be a cloud fairy.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Sushan wrote:I agree. The God could have done that yesterday, and if He is almighty, we could have still believed that the world is billions of years old, though it is actually one day old. If such a God exist and if He has done all these things, then our struggles in science has been of no use.
I disagree with the part at the end that I've highlighted in bold. As I understand it, the proposal is that God created the world a few thousand years ago (or whatever other time period we pick) to look, in every respect, as though it were billions of years old. If He didn't do that then we'd be able to tell. But we can't. So, if that is the case, then our struggles in science are of just as much use as they are in the scenario where the world really did form billions of years ago.
"How everything began?" is a question that has multiple answers. Yet, I think it is better to believe in something rather than being solipsistic
Being solipsistic is believing in something. It's believing that nothing outside our mind exists. My point was that it's similar to this notion of God creating the world to look billions of years old in that it makes absolutely no practical difference to anything. That's why I said that we have to consider why we choose to hold particular beliefs if there is no practical difference between the consequences of holding those beliefs.
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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LuckyR wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 4:28 am
Sushan wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:17 am
LuckyR wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 3:18 am
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
Uummm... your title has a typo, it should be: Has the god deceived us THUS science has it all wrong, OR not.
Thank you for the correction. It can be put in that way. If the God has deceived us, then definitely science could have got it all wrong. But can't it be like either this or that? Can it be that science has got it wrong in the first place and the God had nothing to do with that?
Well, you are correct IMO, that if science is all wrong, the reason for it will be unlikely to be a cloud fairy.
Science has been wrong in more than one occasions. But this is a speculation which should be very far away from the truth, because all the scientists could not have got it wrong regarding the same area of interest. If it has happened in that manner, then indeed it should have been work of some sort of a cloud fairy :D
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Steve3007 wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 5:40 am
Sushan wrote:I agree. The God could have done that yesterday, and if He is almighty, we could have still believed that the world is billions of years old, though it is actually one day old. If such a God exist and if He has done all these things, then our struggles in science has been of no use.
I disagree with the part at the end that I've highlighted in bold. As I understand it, the proposal is that God created the world a few thousand years ago (or whatever other time period we pick) to look, in every respect, as though it were billions of years old. If He didn't do that then we'd be able to tell. But we can't. So, if that is the case, then our struggles in science are of just as much use as they are in the scenario where the world really did form billions of years ago.
"How everything began?" is a question that has multiple answers. Yet, I think it is better to believe in something rather than being solipsistic
Being solipsistic is believing in something. It's believing that nothing outside our mind exists. My point was that it's similar to this notion of God creating the world to look billions of years old in that it makes absolutely no practical difference to anything. That's why I said that we have to consider why we choose to hold particular beliefs if there is no practical difference between the consequences of holding those beliefs.
That is a good point. There is no point in having beliefs or arguing upon them, which has no actual use when concerned with our day to day life or our future. It doesn't matter when our universe was formed and how it was formed if it has no impact on our present. This question was actually raised to see the opinion of the fellow thinkers regarding this author's argument on this so called almighty God deceiving on us, though whatever agreement to we come at the end may of no use for any of us.

By the way, do we always argue for important things? Do all the philosophical arguments are worth of the time and energy spent on them?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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Sushan wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 5:57 am
LuckyR wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 4:28 am
Sushan wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:17 am
LuckyR wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 3:18 am

Uummm... your title has a typo, it should be: Has the god deceived us THUS science has it all wrong, OR not.
Thank you for the correction. It can be put in that way. If the God has deceived us, then definitely science could have got it all wrong. But can't it be like either this or that? Can it be that science has got it wrong in the first place and the God had nothing to do with that?
Well, you are correct IMO, that if science is all wrong, the reason for it will be unlikely to be a cloud fairy.
Science has been wrong in more than one occasions. But this is a speculation which should be very far away from the truth, because all the scientists could not have got it wrong regarding the same area of interest. If it has happened in that manner, then indeed it should have been work of some sort of a cloud fairy :D
Sure science has been wrong, but how was than determined? Through religion? No, through better science, so "science" wasn't wrong, one theory was wrong, science as a whole was right.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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LuckyR wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 1:38 pm
Sushan wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 5:57 am
LuckyR wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 4:28 am
Sushan wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:17 am

Thank you for the correction. It can be put in that way. If the God has deceived us, then definitely science could have got it all wrong. But can't it be like either this or that? Can it be that science has got it wrong in the first place and the God had nothing to do with that?
Well, you are correct IMO, that if science is all wrong, the reason for it will be unlikely to be a cloud fairy.
Science has been wrong in more than one occasions. But this is a speculation which should be very far away from the truth, because all the scientists could not have got it wrong regarding the same area of interest. If it has happened in that manner, then indeed it should have been work of some sort of a cloud fairy :D
Sure science has been wrong, but how was than determined? Through religion? No, through better science, so "science" wasn't wrong, one theory was wrong, science as a whole was right.
I agree. Science is a volatile subject which is updated daily. The theory which is correct today will be wrong tomorrow. What is not found today will be found tomorrow. There can be theories that were there for ages, but a mere experiment can disprove them and the whole world then accepts the new theory. That is the nature of science.

And, yes, at whatever point when scientific theories are proven wrong, it is only done by science, not by religion or philosophy. So, I agree, as a whole science is correct
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

Post by NickGaspar »

Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
Not a true dichotomy and the topic is irrelevant to any real Philosophical discussion.
In essence you are asking "should we question our systematic epistemology because.....magic?".
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Re: Has the God deceived us or has science got it all wrong?

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NickGaspar wrote: March 3rd, 2021, 8:59 pm
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim to look old by fading its colour.

Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
Not a true dichotomy and the topic is irrelevant to any real Philosophical discussion.
In essence you are asking "should we question our systematic epistemology because.....magic?".
Well, it might not be a true dichotomy. More or less both questions ask the same. But why I have raised this question is that tue author of this book has raised an argument which has the potential to challenge our systematic epistemology. He has introduced some new way of thinking which challenges the distinction between knowledge and beliefs. Not ony logical argument, but also he has forwarded some scientific evidence, which say that there are some incompatibilities when comparing age of our universe and the age of the earth. (Though I haven't heard of this earlier and I did not research on it, it seems that the author has something to defend his point)
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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