Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Discuss the March 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God’s Plan by Daniel Friedmann.
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Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Post by Scott »

Here is an interesting quote from page 120 of The Biblical Clock:
Daniel Friedmann wrote:Just as stars were created, light rays were also created. And just as God could create a star that begins to shine only after its creation, so could He create a star that already has rays of light shining forth from it.
Do you agree with this statement?

I am not personally religious and do not believe in an anthropomorphic external god. Nonetheless, I think that statement is both wise and logical. If there is some kind of creator god, be it the Abrahamic God, be it our AI Matrix overlords, or be it a young alien girl creating this world in EA's The Sims 15, it stands to reason that such a god would be capable of creating backstory or otherwise creating a full world already in motion without a physically atomic start. What do you think?
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Re: Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Post by LuckyR »

Scott wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:50 pm Here is an interesting quote from page 120 of The Biblical Clock:
Daniel Friedmann wrote:Just as stars were created, light rays were also created. And just as God could create a star that begins to shine only after its creation, so could He create a star that already has rays of light shining forth from it.
Do you agree with this statement?

I am not personally religious and do not believe in an anthropomorphic external god. Nonetheless, I think that statement is both wise and logical. If there is some kind of creator god, be it the Abrahamic God, be it our AI Matrix overlords, or be it a young alien girl creating this world in EA's The Sims 15, it stands to reason that such a god would be capable of creating backstory or otherwise creating a full world already in motion without a physically atomic start. What do you think?
Sure it's possible. Anything is possible, though that is an incredibly low bar for me to jump over, let alone an omnipotent god.

In other words that sort of retrospectively proposed preemptive strike trick would not fly as a valid argument from my 5 year old daughter, never mind the creator of the universe.
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Re: Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

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Scott wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:50 pm Here is an interesting quote from page 120 of The Biblical Clock:
Daniel Friedmann wrote:Just as stars were created, light rays were also created. And just as God could create a star that begins to shine only after its creation, so could He create a star that already has rays of light shining forth from it.
Do you agree with this statement?

I am not personally religious and do not believe in an anthropomorphic external god. Nonetheless, I think that statement is both wise and logical. If there is some kind of creator god, be it the Abrahamic God, be it our AI Matrix overlords, or be it a young alien girl creating this world in EA's The Sims 15, it stands to reason that such a god would be capable of creating backstory or otherwise creating a full world already in motion without a physically atomic start. What do you think?
If we are discussing about a almighty God with infinite power, then we cannot clearly imagine even what can be done. So, such a thing is easily possible.

I remembered a cartoon depicting a similar scenario, in which God creates the world using a computer pprogramme. So he sets it into function amidst his creation. And when he had to go away from the computer for a while, the world has gone into chaos since he already set it in motion. So He had to delete (this deletion was shown as a big splash of water washing away everything - Noah and the Flood) everything and start again. Though it was something hilarious, your opinion reminded me of that, and it is a valid opinion
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Re: Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Post by Count Lucanor »

Scott wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:50 pm Here is an interesting quote from page 120 of The Biblical Clock:
Daniel Friedmann wrote:Just as stars were created, light rays were also created. And just as God could create a star that begins to shine only after its creation, so could He create a star that already has rays of light shining forth from it.
Do you agree with this statement?

I am not personally religious and do not believe in an anthropomorphic external god. Nonetheless, I think that statement is both wise and logical. If there is some kind of creator god, be it the Abrahamic God, be it our AI Matrix overlords, or be it a young alien girl creating this world in EA's The Sims 15, it stands to reason that such a god would be capable of creating backstory or otherwise creating a full world already in motion without a physically atomic start. What do you think?
It is a priori implied in the notion of creation an instance of creation. The absence of an instant of creation would imply having a non-created reality and lacking a creator. Since god itself is required to be a non-created reality, this would amount to having at least two independent realities, none of which has a creator. If god is no creator of these realities and can't create them, what is it god for and why would they call them "god"?
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Re: Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Post by Thomyum2 »

Scott wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:50 pm Here is an interesting quote from page 120 of The Biblical Clock:
Daniel Friedmann wrote:Just as stars were created, light rays were also created. And just as God could create a star that begins to shine only after its creation, so could He create a star that already has rays of light shining forth from it.
Do you agree with this statement?

I am not personally religious and do not believe in an anthropomorphic external god. Nonetheless, I think that statement is both wise and logical. If there is some kind of creator god, be it the Abrahamic God, be it our AI Matrix overlords, or be it a young alien girl creating this world in EA's The Sims 15, it stands to reason that such a god would be capable of creating backstory or otherwise creating a full world already in motion without a physically atomic start. What do you think?
Count Lucanor wrote: March 7th, 2021, 2:52 pm It is a priori implied in the notion of creation an instance of creation. The absence of an instant of creation would imply having a non-created reality and lacking a creator. Since god itself is required to be a non-created reality, this would amount to having at least two independent realities, none of which has a creator. If god is no creator of these realities and can't create them, what is it god for and why would they call them "god"?
I agree with what the author is saying here, but I think both of you make important points. From the human perspective, we think of the act of 'creating' as something that takes place within a framework of time and it is difficult for us to imagine it as something outside of that. But to conceive of God as a being that is confined within time and bound by time and space is contradictory to the very notion of a supreme being. If God created the universe, then God must have created time also, and God's very existence cannot be temporal in nature.

This isn't a new idea - in book XI of the Confessions, St. Augustine discussed the notion that time itself, just like space and matter, must also be understood as something created and it can't make sense to talk about God simply as a being who existed in time 'before' creating all there is, i.e. as one who only created things and set them in motion at some beginning point in time. I think it makes more sense to understand God as what I would call a 'spiritual' or 'transcendental' creator; one who brings all into existence - all past, present and future. In that sense, creation is not something that occurred or occurs at a moment in time, but could be thought of as an occurring - as a creation that is happening at every moment and from which all things, and the histories of all things, emanate.
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Re: Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Post by Count Lucanor »

Thomyum2 wrote: March 8th, 2021, 2:15 pm I agree with what the author is saying here, but I think both of you make important points. From the human perspective, we think of the act of 'creating' as something that takes place within a framework of time and it is difficult for us to imagine it as something outside of that. But to conceive of God as a being that is confined within time and bound by time and space is contradictory to the very notion of a supreme being. If God created the universe, then God must have created time also, and God's very existence cannot be temporal in nature.
Yes, you can proceed to deny the supreme being's temporality, but this comes with consequences to the other attributes of this god. One is that it cannot be a personal being with agency, thought, will, etc., because time is intrinsic to all of these things. Secondly, somehow associated with the first one: the supreme being could not act, and there can't be a state of potentiality in its acts, nor a consequence for any of its acts, as all of these imply temporality. Creation as the result of the wilful act of a supreme personal being is then not possible. That includes, of course, the creation of time itself. An instance of creation of time is a contradiction, because time is implied in the concept of creation. So, we are only left with the notion that time is not created either.

At the end, when you combine all the logical consequences, we end up having at least three independent realities (a non-personal god + the universe + time), none of which has a creator, nor a beginning, nor an end. One still wonders why the need for the existence of this god.
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Re: Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Post by Sushan »

Count Lucanor wrote: March 7th, 2021, 2:52 pm
Scott wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:50 pm Here is an interesting quote from page 120 of The Biblical Clock:
Daniel Friedmann wrote:Just as stars were created, light rays were also created. And just as God could create a star that begins to shine only after its creation, so could He create a star that already has rays of light shining forth from it.
Do you agree with this statement?

I am not personally religious and do not believe in an anthropomorphic external god. Nonetheless, I think that statement is both wise and logical. If there is some kind of creator god, be it the Abrahamic God, be it our AI Matrix overlords, or be it a young alien girl creating this world in EA's The Sims 15, it stands to reason that such a god would be capable of creating backstory or otherwise creating a full world already in motion without a physically atomic start. What do you think?
It is a priori implied in the notion of creation an instance of creation. The absence of an instant of creation would imply having a non-created reality and lacking a creator. Since god itself is required to be a non-created reality, this would amount to having at least two independent realities, none of which has a creator. If god is no creator of these realities and can't create them, what is it god for and why would they call them "god"?
If we think of it in that manner, it gives rise to a question like "which one came first, the hen or the egg?". If everything has been created, who created this so called God? If no one created Him, how did He came into existence? If everything were created, why only the God became a non-created creature which existed or appeared somehow on its own?
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Re: Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Post by Sushan »

Thomyum2 wrote: March 8th, 2021, 2:15 pm
Scott wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:50 pm Here is an interesting quote from page 120 of The Biblical Clock:
Daniel Friedmann wrote:Just as stars were created, light rays were also created. And just as God could create a star that begins to shine only after its creation, so could He create a star that already has rays of light shining forth from it.
Do you agree with this statement?

I am not personally religious and do not believe in an anthropomorphic external god. Nonetheless, I think that statement is both wise and logical. If there is some kind of creator god, be it the Abrahamic God, be it our AI Matrix overlords, or be it a young alien girl creating this world in EA's The Sims 15, it stands to reason that such a god would be capable of creating backstory or otherwise creating a full world already in motion without a physically atomic start. What do you think?
Count Lucanor wrote: March 7th, 2021, 2:52 pm It is a priori implied in the notion of creation an instance of creation. The absence of an instant of creation would imply having a non-created reality and lacking a creator. Since god itself is required to be a non-created reality, this would amount to having at least two independent realities, none of which has a creator. If god is no creator of these realities and can't create them, what is it god for and why would they call them "god"?
I agree with what the author is saying here, but I think both of you make important points. From the human perspective, we think of the act of 'creating' as something that takes place within a framework of time and it is difficult for us to imagine it as something outside of that. But to conceive of God as a being that is confined within time and bound by time and space is contradictory to the very notion of a supreme being. If God created the universe, then God must have created time also, and God's very existence cannot be temporal in nature.

This isn't a new idea - in book XI of the Confessions, St. Augustine discussed the notion that time itself, just like space and matter, must also be understood as something created and it can't make sense to talk about God simply as a being who existed in time 'before' creating all there is, i.e. as one who only created things and set them in motion at some beginning point in time. I think it makes more sense to understand God as what I would call a 'spiritual' or 'transcendental' creator; one who brings all into existence - all past, present and future. In that sense, creation is not something that occurred or occurs at a moment in time, but could be thought of as an occurring - as a creation that is happening at every moment and from which all things, and the histories of all things, emanate.
Well, it is a fact that is quite difficult to comprehend in that manner. A time without time! How such thing could have existed? What was it like?

According to Einstein time is relative too. If so, is it relative to God? Let's say that God is a spiritual being. does it mean by being spiritual that time is an irrelevant fact for such beings?

Too confusing :shock: :shock: :!: :?:
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Re: Creating a world already in motion with seeming backstory

Post by Sushan »

Count Lucanor wrote: March 8th, 2021, 7:10 pm
Thomyum2 wrote: March 8th, 2021, 2:15 pm I agree with what the author is saying here, but I think both of you make important points. From the human perspective, we think of the act of 'creating' as something that takes place within a framework of time and it is difficult for us to imagine it as something outside of that. But to conceive of God as a being that is confined within time and bound by time and space is contradictory to the very notion of a supreme being. If God created the universe, then God must have created time also, and God's very existence cannot be temporal in nature.
Yes, you can proceed to deny the supreme being's temporality, but this comes with consequences to the other attributes of this god. One is that it cannot be a personal being with agency, thought, will, etc., because time is intrinsic to all of these things. Secondly, somehow associated with the first one: the supreme being could not act, and there can't be a state of potentiality in its acts, nor a consequence for any of its acts, as all of these imply temporality. Creation as the result of the wilful act of a supreme personal being is then not possible. That includes, of course, the creation of time itself. An instance of creation of time is a contradiction, because time is implied in the concept of creation. So, we are only left with the notion that time is not created either.

At the end, when you combine all the logical consequences, we end up having at least three independent realities (a non-personal god + the universe + time), none of which has a creator, nor a beginning, nor an end. One still wonders why the need for the existence of this god.
That is quite insightful. For the creation, a God should have existed. If the bible has not lied, then this whole creation process has a time frame. Yet, nowhere it is mentioned that the time has been created. And if the God created everything, where have been all this universe? Seemingly He has not created the whole universe (as per the bible).

Finally we are left with the question, "What is the need of a God?" :idea:
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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