Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Discuss the March 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God’s Plan by Daniel Friedmann.
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 509
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Sushan »

Alias wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 8:50 am
Sushan wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 1:41 am
Buying fame and honor may not be a good way to acquire it, yet it is a very much possible way to do that.
Fame, yes. Honour, NO.
I know a person who helps his community spending a lot of money. So the people love and honor him very much and he has earned a good name.
That's not his honour; those are 'honors' awarded to him; mere trappings of external validation.
But the rumors say that what he has earned has come from drug dealing. But the people in his community does not care about that and I do not see that he has lost any fame or honor.
He may have gained fame, but he threw away his honour in the very first drug deal. He's trying to buy it back, and that's impossible. However, by doing good, he might begin to make amends and eventually redeem his honour.
But he would have to actually, physically go out and help the victims of his drug traffic - not just throw their money around.

You really don't see the difference between honour - integrity, constancy, fairness, veracity, faithfulness - and kudos?
As far as I see, all the words that you mentioned are included in honor. So, if honor is only personal, yes, then the above mentioned fellow might not have any honor. Yet, if it is personal, then you cannot judge one's honor. He might be thinking that he is doing a honorable duty by serving his community. He is constant in his service. He is fair to them. And he is faithful to them. So he has completed your list to have honor, in relation to the service that he is doing to his community.

If he truly believes that he is having honor by doing so, can we judge him and say "no, you do not have any honor"? If we say so, there will not be any difference between fame and honor.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Alias
Posts: 3045
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Alias »

Sushan wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 12:02 am As far as I see, all the words that you mentioned are included in honor. So, if honor is only personal, yes, then the above mentioned fellow might not have any honor.
Yes, there are two meanings: the primary meaning is a personality trait, a part of who you are. The secondary one is 'honours' given by other people, or 'being honoured' by other people: something you're given.
Yet, if it is personal, then you cannot judge one's honor.
You can't judge another person's, no. But you can know what it is in general, and what it takes to retain it or to forfeit it.
He might be thinking that he is doing a honorable duty by serving his community.
By giving it blood-money? Yes, he might think that, but he would be wrong.
He is constant in his service.
Money, especially money you didn't work for, is not 'service', and very far from from 'constant' service, since he only has to take a minute to sign a cheque once in a while, then get back into his heated swimming pool or his expensive mistress's bed.
He is fair to them. And he is faithful to them.
To whom? The teenagers who resorted to prostitution and burglary to support the drug habit he started them on? The addicts who died in the agony of horrible delusion? Many are already dead. Some are in rehabilitation centers funded by taxpayers. Most will never get back the life they would have had without his interference. How was he fair or faithful to them?
So he has completed your list to have honor, in relation to the service that he is doing to his community.
By giving away some of the money he has acquired by making other people miserable?
I don't think so!
If he truly believes that he is having honor by doing so, can we judge him and say "no, you do not have any honor"?
Yes. And so can a court of law. And so can a god, if he has one.
If we say so, there will not be any difference between fame and honor.
Many dishonourable people are famous. Many dishonourable people are not famous. Many hounourable people are not famous. A few honourable people are famous. Fame and honour have no causal or necessary relationship.
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 509
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Sushan »

Alias wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 12:55 am
Sushan wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 12:02 am As far as I see, all the words that you mentioned are included in honor. So, if honor is only personal, yes, then the above mentioned fellow might not have any honor.
Yes, there are two meanings: the primary meaning is a personality trait, a part of who you are. The secondary one is 'honours' given by other people, or 'being honoured' by other people: something you're given.
Yet, if it is personal, then you cannot judge one's honor.
You can't judge another person's, no. But you can know what it is in general, and what it takes to retain it or to forfeit it.
He might be thinking that he is doing a honorable duty by serving his community.
By giving it blood-money? Yes, he might think that, but he would be wrong.
He is constant in his service.
Money, especially money you didn't work for, is not 'service', and very far from from 'constant' service, since he only has to take a minute to sign a cheque once in a while, then get back into his heated swimming pool or his expensive mistress's bed.
He is fair to them. And he is faithful to them.
To whom? The teenagers who resorted to prostitution and burglary to support the drug habit he started them on? The addicts who died in the agony of horrible delusion? Many are already dead. Some are in rehabilitation centers funded by taxpayers. Most will never get back the life they would have had without his interference. How was he fair or faithful to them?
So he has completed your list to have honor, in relation to the service that he is doing to his community.
By giving away some of the money he has acquired by making other people miserable?
I don't think so!
If he truly believes that he is having honor by doing so, can we judge him and say "no, you do not have any honor"?
Yes. And so can a court of law. And so can a god, if he has one.
If we say so, there will not be any difference between fame and honor.
Many dishonourable people are famous. Many dishonourable people are not famous. Many hounourable people are not famous. A few honourable people are famous. Fame and honour have no causal or necessary relationship.
Though this discussion will go a bit off topic, I would like to convey my thoughts on drugs and drug addiction.

Drugs and drug dealers are there for anyone if they are willing to use them. But no one is forcing anyone (even such things are possible in extremely rare situations) to use them. So if somebody is using drugs, we cannot put the whole blame on the drug producers and the dealers, because the buyers have their free will to decide and its their money that are spent on drugs. I am not going to justify the what the drug dealers do, but if someone is using drugs, it is mostly his/her fault and responsibility.

I agree that it is illegal and unethical to earn by selling drugs, but the buyers are at fault too.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Alias
Posts: 3045
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Alias »

Sushan wrote: May 13th, 2021, 4:06 am Drugs and drug dealers are there for anyone if they are willing to use them. But no one is forcing anyone (even such things are possible in extremely rare situations) to use them.
You are very naif.
So if somebody is using drugs, we cannot put the whole blame on the drug producers and the dealers, because the buyers have their free will to decide and its their money that are spent on drugs.
Even if 'the buyers' are children in elementary school who were enticed with free candy?
I am not going to justify the what the drug dealers do, but if someone is using drugs, it is mostly his/her fault and responsibility.
Guilt shared is still guilt.
I agree that it is illegal and unethical to earn by selling drugs, but the buyers are at fault too.
That doesn't give the drug dealer back the honour he has deliberately and knowingly thrown in the garbage - no, not even is he later gives away some of the money he never had a right to.

Blame shifting, even topic shifting changes nothing with regard to fame and honour.
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 509
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Sushan »

Alias wrote: May 13th, 2021, 9:22 am
Sushan wrote: May 13th, 2021, 4:06 am Drugs and drug dealers are there for anyone if they are willing to use them. But no one is forcing anyone (even such things are possible in extremely rare situations) to use them.
You are very naif.
So if somebody is using drugs, we cannot put the whole blame on the drug producers and the dealers, because the buyers have their free will to decide and its their money that are spent on drugs.
Even if 'the buyers' are children in elementary school who were enticed with free candy?
I am not going to justify the what the drug dealers do, but if someone is using drugs, it is mostly his/her fault and responsibility.
Guilt shared is still guilt.
I agree that it is illegal and unethical to earn by selling drugs, but the buyers are at fault too.
That doesn't give the drug dealer back the honour he has deliberately and knowingly thrown in the garbage - no, not even is he later gives away some of the money he never had a right to.

Blame shifting, even topic shifting changes nothing with regard to fame and honour.

I have never seen any drug addict who has been addicted to substance when he/she was not old enough to understand what is happening to them in my clinical training or clinical practice. Even if they are addicted to a substance by mistake, there are abundant ways for them to get help, even without their parents' awareness. If they have no such knowledge, in my country, they can simply come to a hospital and ask for help from a doctor since we have a totally free health care system, and any doctor have access to such help and will guide those who are seeking for help. With all those things, I see that many addicts just go on with their addiction without trying to come out from that.

One can say that it is not that much easy to get out from an addiction. Yes, I agree, but it is not impossible. I have helped a few to get out from their Heroin addiction within several days. But the problem is that, for reasons that I cannot understand or justify, they once again take those drugs and get addicted to.

I have no intention to honour the drug dealers, and it is true that they use various means to attract young crowd to their substance. Yet, there are so many ways to avoid such an addiction and also to get out from an addiction. Despite having all that if an addict chooses to continue his/her life as an addict, is it the fault of the drug dealer or him/herself?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Alias
Posts: 3045
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Alias »

Sushan wrote: May 13th, 2021, 10:59 pm I have no intention to honour the drug dealers,
Then stop. Don't equate buying applause with good character.
Yet, there are so many ways to avoid such an addiction and also to get out from an addiction. Despite having all that if an addict chooses to continue his/her life as an addict,
That is completely irrelevant to the drug dealer's honour.
is it the fault of the drug dealer or him/herself?
What they did is their fault. What he did is his fault. He knew it was illegal, wrong, bad, potentially life-destroying, and very profitable. He took people's money in return for doing them harm. Then he turned around and gave some of the money back to the society he had damaged, in return for public 'honours' - that may be less evil, but it's no less despicable.
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 509
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Sushan »

Alias wrote: May 14th, 2021, 12:49 am
Sushan wrote: May 13th, 2021, 10:59 pm I have no intention to honour the drug dealers,
Then stop. Don't equate buying applause with good character.
Yet, there are so many ways to avoid such an addiction and also to get out from an addiction. Despite having all that if an addict chooses to continue his/her life as an addict,
That is completely irrelevant to the drug dealer's honour.
is it the fault of the drug dealer or him/herself?
What they did is their fault. What he did is his fault. He knew it was illegal, wrong, bad, potentially life-destroying, and very profitable. He took people's money in return for doing them harm. Then he turned around and gave some of the money back to the society he had damaged, in return for public 'honours' - that may be less evil, but it's no less despicable.
Quite true. What he did was illegal. He knows it and he continues to do it. And that is bad for the society.

On the other hand he is serving to the society in a way, though what he spends to that is what he earned from a wrong doing. And for that people love him.

Can't we separate his good side from his bad side? no one is either black or white. Why we expect a white character from this fellow?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Alias
Posts: 3045
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Alias »

Sushan wrote: May 14th, 2021, 10:35 pm What he did was illegal. He knows it and he continues to do it. And that is bad for the society.
And therefore, he has no honour.
On the other hand he is serving to the society in a way,
And he cannot buy it back
And for that people love him.
That's their problem.
Can't we separate his good side from his bad side?
Not our job.
Why we expect a white character from this fellow?
I expect nothing from him, except a large part of his waning years spent in prison. Maybe he can learn to do some real good there and earn a little redemption.
I don't know what you expect, as you have not made clear why you brought him up as an example of fame being the same as honour - which it isn't. When one acts honourably, one is honourable and has honour. When one acts dishonourably, he isn't and hasn't. You can't change that by throwing some blood money into Santa's cauldron.
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 509
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Sushan »

Alias wrote: May 15th, 2021, 12:46 am
Sushan wrote: May 14th, 2021, 10:35 pm What he did was illegal. He knows it and he continues to do it. And that is bad for the society.
And therefore, he has no honour.
On the other hand he is serving to the society in a way,
And he cannot buy it back
And for that people love him.
That's their problem.
Can't we separate his good side from his bad side?
Not our job.
Why we expect a white character from this fellow?
I expect nothing from him, except a large part of his waning years spent in prison. Maybe he can learn to do some real good there and earn a little redemption.
I don't know what you expect, as you have not made clear why you brought him up as an example of fame being the same as honour - which it isn't. When one acts honourably, one is honourable and has honour. When one acts dishonourably, he isn't and hasn't. You can't change that by throwing some blood money into Santa's cauldron.
That is true. No one can cover dishonourable acts with money (unless they cover the fact that they did that). I took him as an example because I wanted to counterargue the point that honour is a thing which is limited to one's self. I believe honour too comes to one from the society, or his followers (I am not talking about fame). If one says someone is a very honourable person, then that is a title which is given to that person by the society. Maybe he himself is not feeling the same, but the society does.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Anand_Haqq
Posts: 16
Joined: June 12th, 2021, 9:29 pm

Re: Is fame like gold? (Quote from Page 92 of The Biblical Clock)

Post by Anand_Haqq »

. No ... Exactly the opposute.

. Fame is base metal ...

. Being unknown is Gold ...
Post Reply

Return to “The Biblical Clock by Daniel Friedmann”

Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021