Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Discuss the March 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God’s Plan by Daniel Friedmann.
Tegularius
Posts: 339
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Tegularius »

Nick_A wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 7:20 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 6:47 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 1:18 pm
fionaimmodest wrote: August 13th, 2021, 5:46 am When you let go of individual survival, all of your priorities change because you actually see the entire world as your body. You see the suffering of others as your own suffering and you want to help. What is the actual power of a human being to really benefit the world, when they are able to put the priorities of the whole system in front of themselves, even if that means they have to die in the process? How many of us can do that right now?

What if seven billion of us did that?

Maybe the one thing that keeps us from actually solving all of the other problems in the world is this persistent, flawed thought that we are separate from the world. Maybe it’s time we change our minds.”
Helo Fiona

You seem open to contemplating the essence of religion and philosophy below the psychological surface rather than arguing about Trump. It seems to me that an intelligent rather than an indoctrinated person could put scientific facts into "meaning." Facts are easy to prove but for many what provides meaning is a subjective concept acquired by family, friends, and society. However some believe in objective meaning. This means that meaning is a universal perennial truth that Man can "remember" through conscience. Do you believe that objective meaning is a reality or are we limited to invented subjective expressions of meaning that vanish as Man becomes extinct?
Does that mean that just about any meaning will do, the kind conscience will accept as universal even though there's no such thing??
I

I already know that you deny objective meaning and an objective purpose for our universe. But Fiona's style indicates she has thought deeper on the potential for objective meaning and why it is hidden from Man as he normally is.
Ever think that "thinking deeper" can actually distort objectivity into meaning whatever you want it to mean, thereby forcing it into constraints of what amounts to something deeply personal having no relation to universal truth of any kind. It's the easiest thing in the world to talk about meaning as if it could be absolutely defined by some universal objective without ever once having to qualify it in some manner. It's common for human brains to fill a universe void of meaning by a perennial mythologization of it.

You keep claiming objective meaning and an objective purpose for our universe. Care to give an example which renders it our universe beyond merely stating some vague objectivity?

Universal meaning, compared to any and all human values of meaning, is a bogus variable impossible to qualify except in purely human terms which invariably, through wishful thinking, emphasizes its own conditions of Universality.
Nick_A
Posts: 2961
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Nick_A »

Tegularius wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 8:26 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 7:20 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 6:47 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 1:18 pm

Helo Fiona

You seem open to contemplating the essence of religion and philosophy below the psychological surface rather than arguing about Trump. It seems to me that an intelligent rather than an indoctrinated person could put scientific facts into "meaning." Facts are easy to prove but for many what provides meaning is a subjective concept acquired by family, friends, and society. However some believe in objective meaning. This means that meaning is a universal perennial truth that Man can "remember" through conscience. Do you believe that objective meaning is a reality or are we limited to invented subjective expressions of meaning that vanish as Man becomes extinct?
Does that mean that just about any meaning will do, the kind conscience will accept as universal even though there's no such thing??
I

I already know that you deny objective meaning and an objective purpose for our universe. But Fiona's style indicates she has thought deeper on the potential for objective meaning and why it is hidden from Man as he normally is.
Ever think that "thinking deeper" can actually distort objectivity into meaning whatever you want it to mean, thereby forcing it into constraints of what amounts to something deeply personal having no relation to universal truth of any kind. It's the easiest thing in the world to talk about meaning as if it could be absolutely defined by some universal objective without ever once having to qualify it in some manner. It's common for human brains to fill a universe void of meaning by a perennial mythologization of it.

You keep claiming objective meaning and an objective purpose for our universe. Care to give an example which renders it our universe beyond merely stating some vague objectivity?

Universal meaning, compared to any and all human values of meaning, is a bogus variable impossible to qualify except in purely human terms which invariably, through wishful thinking, emphasizes its own conditions of Universality.
I don't know what you mean by thinking deeper. Is it just fantasizing for you or just adding more thoughts on top of thoughts.

Thinking deeper for me requires opening to intuition. Einstein explains. It may be absurd to you but I do like to converse with those not in denial.
1930
"Many people think that the progress of the human race is based on experiences of an empirical, critical nature, but I say that true knowledge is to be had only through a philosophy of deduction. For it is intuition that improves the world, not just following the trodden path of thought. Intuition makes us look at unrelated facts and then think about them until they can all be brought under one law. To look for related facts means holding onto what one has instead of searching for new facts. Intuition is the father of new knowledge, while empiricism is nothing but an accumulation of old knowledge. Intuition, not intellect, is the ‘open sesame’ of yourself." -- Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 16.), conversation March 4, 1930
Thinking deeper doesn't require learning more facts but how they can be brought under one law. The philosophy of deduction as Einstein explains it isn't fantasy but a higher form of intellect
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Tegularius
Posts: 339
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Tegularius »

Nick_A wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 9:42 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 8:26 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 7:20 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 6:47 pm

Does that mean that just about any meaning will do, the kind conscience will accept as universal even though there's no such thing??
I

I already know that you deny objective meaning and an objective purpose for our universe. But Fiona's style indicates she has thought deeper on the potential for objective meaning and why it is hidden from Man as he normally is.
Ever think that "thinking deeper" can actually distort objectivity into meaning whatever you want it to mean, thereby forcing it into constraints of what amounts to something deeply personal having no relation to universal truth of any kind. It's the easiest thing in the world to talk about meaning as if it could be absolutely defined by some universal objective without ever once having to qualify it in some manner. It's common for human brains to fill a universe void of meaning by a perennial mythologization of it.

You keep claiming objective meaning and an objective purpose for our universe. Care to give an example which renders it our universe beyond merely stating some vague objectivity?

Universal meaning, compared to any and all human values of meaning, is a bogus variable impossible to qualify except in purely human terms which invariably, through wishful thinking, emphasizes its own conditions of Universality.
I don't know what you mean by thinking deeper. Is it just fantasizing for you or just adding more thoughts on top of thoughts.

Thinking deeper for me requires opening to intuition. Einstein explains. It may be absurd to you but I do like to converse with those not in denial.
1930
"Many people think that the progress of the human race is based on experiences of an empirical, critical nature, but I say that true knowledge is to be had only through a philosophy of deduction. For it is intuition that improves the world, not just following the trodden path of thought. Intuition makes us look at unrelated facts and then think about them until they can all be brought under one law. To look for related facts means holding onto what one has instead of searching for new facts. Intuition is the father of new knowledge, while empiricism is nothing but an accumulation of old knowledge. Intuition, not intellect, is the ‘open sesame’ of yourself." -- Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 16.), conversation March 4, 1930
Thinking deeper doesn't require learning more facts but how they can be brought under one law. The philosophy of deduction as Einstein explains it isn't fantasy but a higher form of intellect
Intuition has always been paramount in discovering new knowledge. Nothing new here. But you will note that Einstein never espoused any objective purpose for the universe existing as you continually do. You can't even describe, in your own words, even as a playful speculation, what that purpose would be!

From Eratosthenes to Einstein, and all the super geniuses in between, had they I.Q.'s of 1000 none would be able so denote any objective meaning to the universe which is governed solely by the most rigid and impersonal rules of physics. Humans and all life are obviously part of it conforming to the same rules.
Nick_A
Posts: 2961
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Nick_A »

Tegularius, The purpose of our universe is to serve the necessity of the Beath of Brahma.
Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again.
We live in a cyclical universe. Like our bodies, the universe is a machine which is an essential part of our Source much like our bodies are essential to our organism. Exhalation is the creation of our universe while inhalation returns it to its source. One breath is a kalpa

The universe is a necessary part of our Source. Some study the universe by learning how to "Know Thyself" When you know the purpose of your body, you will know the purpose of our universe. You can help the health of your body? Can mankind serve the purpose of the health of creation or the body of God? If true, it is obvious that humanity is unaware of how to serve the universe and demands to be served by the universe. A serious mistake.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Tegularius
Posts: 339
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Tegularius »

Nick_A wrote: August 24th, 2021, 8:20 pm Tegularius, The purpose of our universe is to serve the necessity of the Beath of Brahma.
Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again.
We live in a cyclical universe. Like our bodies, the universe is a machine which is an essential part of our Source much like our bodies are essential to our organism. Exhalation is the creation of our universe while inhalation returns it to its source. One breath is a kalpa

The universe is a necessary part of our Source. Some study the universe by learning how to "Know Thyself" When you know the purpose of your body, you will know the purpose of our universe. You can help the health of your body? Can mankind serve the purpose of the health of creation or the body of God? If true, it is obvious that humanity is unaware of how to serve the universe and demands to be served by the universe. A serious mistake.
I have no idea - and wonder if anyone else does - what this means in relation to a purpose or objective existing in the universe...

The purpose of our universe is to serve the necessity of the Beath of Brahma??

For at least 50 years, I've known what a Kalpa is including its metaphor. It's not as if I never studied these oriental religions and myths and how the two are blended especially in the East. All-in-all, I must say they are impressive beyond anything in the bible. This includes the Tibetan Book of the Dead which, it is said, C.G. Jung carried around with him wherever he went.

You don't know, and no one 2500 years ago could possibly know how the universe ends. It could indeed be cyclical, but that's only one scenario among a half dozen others according to MODERN COSMOLOGY.

Also note...and this seems to have escaped you, that what is cyclical in nature is THAT WAY according to its underlying rules! NOT because there is an objective or purpose to the universe, as you consistently claim. That which fails to conform, sooner or later, gets annulled without a wimper, which is how the universe recycles failure. Its rules are rigid.
Nick_A
Posts: 2961
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Nick_A »

Tegularius wrote: August 25th, 2021, 5:24 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 24th, 2021, 8:20 pm Tegularius, The purpose of our universe is to serve the necessity of the Beath of Brahma.
Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again.
We live in a cyclical universe. Like our bodies, the universe is a machine which is an essential part of our Source much like our bodies are essential to our organism. Exhalation is the creation of our universe while inhalation returns it to its source. One breath is a kalpa

The universe is a necessary part of our Source. Some study the universe by learning how to "Know Thyself" When you know the purpose of your body, you will know the purpose of our universe. You can help the health of your body? Can mankind serve the purpose of the health of creation or the body of God? If true, it is obvious that humanity is unaware of how to serve the universe and demands to be served by the universe. A serious mistake.
I have no idea - and wonder if anyone else does - what this means in relation to a purpose or objective existing in the universe...

The purpose of our universe is to serve the necessity of the Beath of Brahma??

For at least 50 years, I've known what a Kalpa is including its metaphor. It's not as if I never studied these oriental religions and myths and how the two are blended especially in the East. All-in-all, I must say they are impressive beyond anything in the bible. This includes the Tibetan Book of the Dead which, it is said, C.G. Jung carried around with him wherever he went.

You don't know, and no one 2500 years ago could possibly know how the universe ends. It could indeed be cyclical, but that's only one scenario among a half dozen others according to MODERN COSMOLOGY.

Also note...and this seems to have escaped you, that what is cyclical in nature is THAT WAY according to its underlying rules! NOT because there is an objective or purpose to the universe, as you consistently claim. That which fails to conform, sooner or later, gets annulled without a wimper, which is how the universe recycles failure. Its rules are rigid.
Christianity reveals the inner psychological direction which can answer my questions. The essence of Christianity or esoteric Christianity is a part of the perennial tradition which always was. The laws which sustain it make the universal machine possible. Conscious Man which devolved to become animal Man cannot feel the perennial perspective conscious Man is aware of so the world functions in darkness.

Conscious Man understands universal purpose but such knowledge just gets in the way of the dominant dualistic worldly perspective normal for animal Man. The path leading to conscious Man is far more attractive to those in search of meaning than the battle over dualistic opinions

The essence of the origin of conscious Man is far older than the fallen origin of animal Man so may understand what has been forgotten like the purpose of pyramids
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Papus79
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Papus79 »

While I wouldn't touch the bronze age book shelf on this one (except maybe Tao Te Ching) I do think something interesting is afoot in general.

I listen to stuff of the sort that Donald Hoffman and Chetan Prakash talk about with their sort of universal Darwinism where nature is conscious agents all the way down, I listen to Stephen Wolfram talking about his hypergraph and clarifying that he doesn't think the universe is 'conscious' but that it is 'intelligent' but that he considers consciousness a downgrade from intelligence, I'll hear Karl Friston talk about 'Free Energy Principal' and how life is a set of conditions conscribed by Markov blankets where that disequilibrium system survives by reducing entropy both internally and in the environment ('free' as in unused energy), then I'll listen to the GameB people talk about complex systems and sense making, then catch four hours of Josephine McCarthy on Glitch Bottle talking about her practices and experiences, 2020, the free Quaria course, and really circling back to the very Daoist sort of understanding that it's a current of consciousness that this all seems to be stemming and evolving from.

With every one of those, it's like the pins in a tumbler lining up before a door unlocks and opens.
People aren't fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, we're fundamentally trying to survive. It's the environment and culture which tells us what that's going to be.
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