Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Discuss the March 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God’s Plan by Daniel Friedmann.
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Renold vijay
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Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Renold vijay »

At first I thought it was just a waste of time comparing science with scriptures as I ready the title of "Bibilical clock". But after reading few pages the authors have convinced me about different timelines of connecting biblical context to science. I wish to present a honest review once I complete the book. :)
Nick_A
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Nick_A »

Renold vijay wrote: June 5th, 2021, 1:35 pm At first I thought it was just a waste of time comparing science with scriptures as I ready the title of "Bibilical clock". But after reading few pages the authors have convinced me about different timelines of connecting biblical context to science. I wish to present a honest review once I complete the book. :)
Please tell me if the author provides examples of how science verifies religion. It will be a step in the right direction.

Simone Weil wrote:
I believe that one identical thought is to be found—expressed very precisely and with only slight differences of modality—in. . .Pythagoras, Plato, and the Greek Stoics. . .in the Upanishads, and the Bhagavad Gita; in the Chinese Taoist writings and. . .Buddhism. . .in the dogmas of the Christian faith and in the writings of the greatest Christian mystics. . .I believe that this thought is the truth, and that it today requires a modern and Western form of expression. That is to say, it should be expressed through the only approximately good thing we can call our own, namely science. This is all the less difficult because it is itself the origin of science. Simone Weil….Simone Pétrement, Simone Weil: A Life, Random House, 1976, p. 488
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Sculptor1 »

Renold vijay wrote: June 5th, 2021, 1:35 pm At first I thought it was just a waste of time comparing science with scriptures as I ready the title of "Bibilical clock". But after reading few pages the authors have convinced me about different timelines of connecting biblical context to science. I wish to present a honest review once I complete the book. :)
I think you were originally correct that it is indeed a waste of time comparing science with scriptures.
Science and Scripture occupy different magisteria, and any comparisons made are false.
Would you can to share any specific reflections?
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Sushan
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Sushan »

I can agree partially. I am not certain about the accuracy of the details or the connections that the author highlights. But he has written it in a convincing manner, and even I, who never believed in these creation related stories, gave a second thought to the contents in the book. Anyway, we have to keep in mind that all these historical authors were devotees to the God and their so called historical notes ccould have been pretty much biased. So you can read the whole thing but you have to digest it with caution.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Sushan
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Sushan »

Nick_A wrote: June 6th, 2021, 6:01 pm
Renold vijay wrote: June 5th, 2021, 1:35 pm At first I thought it was just a waste of time comparing science with scriptures as I ready the title of "Bibilical clock". But after reading few pages the authors have convinced me about different timelines of connecting biblical context to science. I wish to present a honest review once I complete the book. :)
Please tell me if the author provides examples of how science verifies religion. It will be a step in the right direction.

Simone Weil wrote:
I believe that one identical thought is to be found—expressed very precisely and with only slight differences of modality—in. . .Pythagoras, Plato, and the Greek Stoics. . .in the Upanishads, and the Bhagavad Gita; in the Chinese Taoist writings and. . .Buddhism. . .in the dogmas of the Christian faith and in the writings of the greatest Christian mystics. . .I believe that this thought is the truth, and that it today requires a modern and Western form of expression. That is to say, it should be expressed through the only approximately good thing we can call our own, namely science. This is all the less difficult because it is itself the origin of science. Simone Weil….Simone Pétrement, Simone Weil: A Life, Random House, 1976, p. 488
Yes. I too think each and every religion or the philosophies have more or less similar things in their core that are covered with various myths and beliefs that are unique to those religions or philosophies, which clearly reflect the thoughts and beliefs of the relevant eras and geographical areas. Today with the scientific advancements we see that many of these myths are unbelievable, and so we merely ignore the core values of these teachings as well. I think all these has to be interpreted in a novel and a scientific manner, and then we will be able to apply them and make use of them in the today's world.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Sushan
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Sushan »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 6th, 2021, 6:52 pm
Renold vijay wrote: June 5th, 2021, 1:35 pm At first I thought it was just a waste of time comparing science with scriptures as I ready the title of "Bibilical clock". But after reading few pages the authors have convinced me about different timelines of connecting biblical context to science. I wish to present a honest review once I complete the book. :)
I think you were originally correct that it is indeed a waste of time comparing science with scriptures.
Science and Scripture occupy different magisteria, and any comparisons made are false.
Would you can to share any specific reflections?
That can indeed be a waste of time. But I think such comparisons and related arguments are interesting. They reveal the thinking patterns of philosophers who will either take the side of religion or science. Anyway, there is no result in comparing these two, and it is better to select the valuable facts and theories from each category and utilize them for the betterment of the world.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Sculptor1 »

Sushan wrote: July 19th, 2021, 12:26 am
Sculptor1 wrote: June 6th, 2021, 6:52 pm
Renold vijay wrote: June 5th, 2021, 1:35 pm At first I thought it was just a waste of time comparing science with scriptures as I ready the title of "Bibilical clock". But after reading few pages the authors have convinced me about different timelines of connecting biblical context to science. I wish to present a honest review once I complete the book. :)
I think you were originally correct that it is indeed a waste of time comparing science with scriptures.
Science and Scripture occupy different magisteria, and any comparisons made are false.
Would you can to share any specific reflections?
That can indeed be a waste of time. But I think such comparisons and related arguments are interesting. They reveal the thinking patterns of philosophers who will either take the side of religion or science. Anyway, there is no result in comparing these two, and it is better to select the valuable facts and theories from each category and utilize them for the betterment of the world.
Religion is not involved in the betterment of the world, though it might think that.
Science can be, but that is not its primary focus
It is the job of science to describe the world in ever more detail. This description tends to reveal how things work. There is nothing whatever in religion to compare that.
Religion is an early form of morality and politics. It gives itself credibility by inventing cosmologies. Since science has invalidated those cosmologies, with those awful things called "facts", religion has been undermined. Religon has made many efforts to surpress science. But the failure to censor the truth has just made the efforts of religion absurd.
It is a reflection of he idiocy of humanity that religions persist.
Religion has nothing to offer.
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Robert66 »

Try to imagine a person with average intelligence. I know it is a kind of weird thing to do, but go on. You might think well, I am about average in intelligence - there is a lot of stuff I know, and a lot I don't. Some things are so hard to grasp that you might think no one could even know the answer: is there a God?; the beginning of time; what happens beyond the universe; why does hair grow everywhere except on my head? Even really intelligent people struggle with some questions.

Now remember that half the human population are below average intelligence. Like it or not, these people are in the market for religion. And not surprisingly it is a massive marketplace. Some of the products are not bad. Love thy neighbour, Judge not lest ye be judged ... nothing wrong with that kind of thing. But some of religion's products are the worst kind of evil **** ever invented - worse than Jeeps - and they will destroy you, and cause war, and make life hell.

Thankfully science provides plenty of answers, however when compared to an orange-tinted demagogue urging you to drink bleach, science can seem a bit prosaic even boring, so the problem of what to do with the below average intelligence half of the population will remain. Education could certainly help, but a smarter population would interfere with the plans of the demagogues. So lots of schoolkids even now are taught creationism as if it were factual, and in some parts education is very limited even disallowed if you are female. And despite the human tendency toward destruction including self-destruction, the so-called clever ape still believes he should be in charge So you can thank religion for the sorry mess the world continues to be in.

Then you get otherwise intelligent-seeming people who just have to try and bridge the gap, let's say chasm, between science and religion. For the love of Peanuts I wish they would not bother.
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Nick_A wrote: June 6th, 2021, 6:01 pm Please tell me if the author provides examples of how science verifies religion.
I don't think science has a method or technique that allows for verification. Science uses 'not-yet-falsified' instead. This is science's greatest strength, as well as its greatest weakness, IMO.
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Stoic Spirit »

The science is awesome, but science alone does not give an answer to philosophical and moral issues, nor it is its duty either. Religion on the other hand strives to make representation of morality in transcendental God. It doesn’t matter for the question of whether the God exists or not.

The intention that matters.

SP
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by fionaimmodest »

When you let go of individual survival, all of your priorities change because you actually see the entire world as your body. You see the suffering of others as your own suffering and you want to help. What is the actual power of a human being to really benefit the world, when they are able to put the priorities of the whole system in front of themselves, even if that means they have to die in the process? How many of us can do that right now?

What if seven billion of us did that?

Maybe the one thing that keeps us from actually solving all of the other problems in the world is this persistent, flawed thought that we are separate from the world. Maybe it’s time we change our minds.”
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Fellowmater »

Let us embark on the vaguely inexplicable subjectivity of spirituality, and to conspicuously assume we can engage in discourse over the objectivity of spirituality is folly because each individual blabber their mutually exclusive delusion of grandeur. Now let's exclude religiosity from the equation and embrace spirituality as an independent secular factor, "sounds like a contradiction," but many treat religiosity and spirituality in stark contrast. Spirituality seems to dwell on the non-materialistic attributes of existence, a connection to the intangible being or the nature or essence of a man. A divine sacred embodiment or liturgy connection with the intangible, a meaning to life, one that transcends beyond worldly interest, an intrinsic joy, unity, acceptance, significance, or personal rapport with the universe. Or an external divine intervention that predicates the narratives of life. A complete vaguely inexplicable mumbo-jumbo gibberish that's contingent on the subjectivity of one's delusion.
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Nick_A »

fionaimmodest wrote: August 13th, 2021, 5:46 am When you let go of individual survival, all of your priorities change because you actually see the entire world as your body. You see the suffering of others as your own suffering and you want to help. What is the actual power of a human being to really benefit the world, when they are able to put the priorities of the whole system in front of themselves, even if that means they have to die in the process? How many of us can do that right now?

What if seven billion of us did that?

Maybe the one thing that keeps us from actually solving all of the other problems in the world is this persistent, flawed thought that we are separate from the world. Maybe it’s time we change our minds.”
Helo Fiona

You seem open to contemplating the essence of religion and philosophy below the psychological surface rather than arguing about Trump. It seems to me that an intelligent rather than an indoctrinated person could put scientific facts into "meaning." Facts are easy to prove but for many what provides meaning is a subjective concept acquired by family, friends, and society. However some believe in objective meaning. This means that meaning is a universal perennial truth that Man can "remember" through conscience. Do you believe that objective meaning is a reality or are we limited to invented subjective expressions of meaning that vanish as Man becomes extinct?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Tegularius »

Nick_A wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 1:18 pm
fionaimmodest wrote: August 13th, 2021, 5:46 am When you let go of individual survival, all of your priorities change because you actually see the entire world as your body. You see the suffering of others as your own suffering and you want to help. What is the actual power of a human being to really benefit the world, when they are able to put the priorities of the whole system in front of themselves, even if that means they have to die in the process? How many of us can do that right now?

What if seven billion of us did that?

Maybe the one thing that keeps us from actually solving all of the other problems in the world is this persistent, flawed thought that we are separate from the world. Maybe it’s time we change our minds.”
Helo Fiona

You seem open to contemplating the essence of religion and philosophy below the psychological surface rather than arguing about Trump. It seems to me that an intelligent rather than an indoctrinated person could put scientific facts into "meaning." Facts are easy to prove but for many what provides meaning is a subjective concept acquired by family, friends, and society. However some believe in objective meaning. This means that meaning is a universal perennial truth that Man can "remember" through conscience. Do you believe that objective meaning is a reality or are we limited to invented subjective expressions of meaning that vanish as Man becomes extinct?
Does that mean that just about any meaning will do, the kind conscience will accept as universal even though there's no such thing??
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Nick_A
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Re: Roadmap to scientific spirituality!

Post by Nick_A »

Tegularius wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 6:47 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 1:18 pm
fionaimmodest wrote: August 13th, 2021, 5:46 am When you let go of individual survival, all of your priorities change because you actually see the entire world as your body. You see the suffering of others as your own suffering and you want to help. What is the actual power of a human being to really benefit the world, when they are able to put the priorities of the whole system in front of themselves, even if that means they have to die in the process? How many of us can do that right now?

What if seven billion of us did that?

Maybe the one thing that keeps us from actually solving all of the other problems in the world is this persistent, flawed thought that we are separate from the world. Maybe it’s time we change our minds.”
Helo Fiona

You seem open to contemplating the essence of religion and philosophy below the psychological surface rather than arguing about Trump. It seems to me that an intelligent rather than an indoctrinated person could put scientific facts into "meaning." Facts are easy to prove but for many what provides meaning is a subjective concept acquired by family, friends, and society. However some believe in objective meaning. This means that meaning is a universal perennial truth that Man can "remember" through conscience. Do you believe that objective meaning is a reality or are we limited to invented subjective expressions of meaning that vanish as Man becomes extinct?
Does that mean that just about any meaning will do, the kind conscience will accept as universal even though there's no such thing??
I

I already know that you deny objective meaning and an objective purpose for our universe. But Fiona's style indicates she has thought deeper on the potential for objective meaning and why it is hidden from Man as he normally is.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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