Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Use this forum to discuss the June 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power by Barbara Galutia Regis PA-C
Belindi
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: June 12th, 2021, 2:16 am
mystery wrote: June 11th, 2021, 5:31 am
LuckyR wrote: June 11th, 2021, 2:09 am
mystery wrote: June 10th, 2021, 2:25 am Hi Lucky, (sorry I messed up the quoting button).

yes Social Security in the US is IMO a decent system and part of the pension for the included members who contribute to it. Maybe some problems, but generally a good system. I also include 401 plans, personal savings, and investments. Anyone that can have/buys a car could easily save and invest if they choose. A guy named Dave Ramsey has a short course available that teaches the basic concepts that anyone could choose to do.

The drug addict's parents should already have been dealt with by the community before that baby. Drugs are a terrible problem, one of the worst. For every drug addict, there is a businessman that is corrupt that should be dealt with. Either law enforcement or in some locations the family or clan of the addict will take care of it. Failure to do that is another topic. I do not allow this problem around me, ever.

It is hard to starve in the US, in other places it happens. often Starving is really eating less fancy food but still with the internet, BMW, and designer clothes, and starbucks. Getting laid off (not fired) is a very difficult thing for a person that has spent a lifetime doing some tasks and perhaps paid well. It happened to me at one time, I know it from the inside. There are always jobs to get, might have to move, might have to sell part of the farm, might have to move the kids to public school.. that list goes on and on.

Unemployment is paid for and earned. Getting that is a right after having paid for it. After it is done, the person should have found a way forward. Perhaps not at the same high pay or luxury they had before if that skill is no longer in demand. But yes if they simply do nothing eventually they starve. For those that can not yet self insure food without employment, private employment insurance can be purchased.
I hate to break it to you but typing the words: dealt with, is not a plan to address kids of drug addicts.

Don't get me wrong, you give good advice, but seem to have a blind spot to the fact that a percentage of folks won't take good advice. Kids of these people are the innocent victims of that fact and I, for one, do not support standing idly by when there are ample resources available to help folks. What are we saving those resources for that is a better use of them?
cool, I respect anyone for taking care of an innocent.

I did mistype, I mean to deal with the drug addict, not the kid. my bad on that. And yes, a drug addiction is a pain all its own with root causes, another great topic. The ones getting rich from that pain need to be addressed or dealt with, and of course, they also have a root cause. The actual addict also needs to be helped or removed. When we trace these things back, the core drivers are only a few. The abuse of a child in a drug house is so bad it is not ok. Being soft on the problem allows it to continue.

I would remove the problem of the kids with drug addict parents by either removing the drugs or the parents before a baby is in the pipe. In some cases, I have personally seen the hardline on drugs make huge improvements. It is at the cost of perceived rights. I know about drugs.. it is a hell all its own. What should the rights be of a businessman that chooses to addict ppl to drugs so as to be wealthy? That money is so big that it can control entire nations.

I know my hard-line ideas are not popular in some circles, I accept that.

I think you're suggesting that it would be ok to take resources from me against my will to give to another in need. I don't agree with that. That is exactly what the current US health care system does. And to make it worse the level of financial corruption with the system is huge so that much of that taking goes to ppl that do not have a need.

If you/we and and others choose to give and help, that is really a good thing. It is very good if you choose to help. It is bad if a person is forced to help.
Ah so. Now I get it. You're all for poor folks getting assistance as long as you (and therefore essentially no one) don't have to pay for it. Magic fairy assistance. Something from nothing.

I wish you (and every other person) to always have higher than average wealth.
The cause of the disease is drugs. So hardline-wise get rid of the disease by policing and bringing to justice the drugs profiteers. True, drugs is a huge question with issues of poverty among third world farmers, international crime organisations, costs to the public purse of policing, social psychology of decriminalising recreational drugs or some of them, and enriching the lives of poor people ( drug taking is largely a psychiatric disease of meaningless living).

Clinical care for people who are ill whether from drug taking or any other social or natural disease is a no-brainer. Certainly those of us who can pay money should pay money to take care of ill people. Taking care of others is what civilised people do.
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mystery
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by mystery »

LuckyR wrote: June 12th, 2021, 2:16 am
mystery wrote: June 11th, 2021, 5:31 am
LuckyR wrote: June 11th, 2021, 2:09 am
mystery wrote: June 10th, 2021, 2:25 am Hi Lucky, (sorry I messed up the quoting button).

yes Social Security in the US is IMO a decent system and part of the pension for the included members who contribute to it. Maybe some problems, but generally a good system. I also include 401 plans, personal savings, and investments. Anyone that can have/buys a car could easily save and invest if they choose. A guy named Dave Ramsey has a short course available that teaches the basic concepts that anyone could choose to do.

The drug addict's parents should already have been dealt with by the community before that baby. Drugs are a terrible problem, one of the worst. For every drug addict, there is a businessman that is corrupt that should be dealt with. Either law enforcement or in some locations the family or clan of the addict will take care of it. Failure to do that is another topic. I do not allow this problem around me, ever.

It is hard to starve in the US, in other places it happens. often Starving is really eating less fancy food but still with the internet, BMW, and designer clothes, and starbucks. Getting laid off (not fired) is a very difficult thing for a person that has spent a lifetime doing some tasks and perhaps paid well. It happened to me at one time, I know it from the inside. There are always jobs to get, might have to move, might have to sell part of the farm, might have to move the kids to public school.. that list goes on and on.

Unemployment is paid for and earned. Getting that is a right after having paid for it. After it is done, the person should have found a way forward. Perhaps not at the same high pay or luxury they had before if that skill is no longer in demand. But yes if they simply do nothing eventually they starve. For those that can not yet self insure food without employment, private employment insurance can be purchased.
I hate to break it to you but typing the words: dealt with, is not a plan to address kids of drug addicts.

Don't get me wrong, you give good advice, but seem to have a blind spot to the fact that a percentage of folks won't take good advice. Kids of these people are the innocent victims of that fact and I, for one, do not support standing idly by when there are ample resources available to help folks. What are we saving those resources for that is a better use of them?
cool, I respect anyone for taking care of an innocent.

I did mistype, I mean to deal with the drug addict, not the kid. my bad on that. And yes, a drug addiction is a pain all its own with root causes, another great topic. The ones getting rich from that pain need to be addressed or dealt with, and of course, they also have a root cause. The actual addict also needs to be helped or removed. When we trace these things back, the core drivers are only a few. The abuse of a child in a drug house is so bad it is not ok. Being soft on the problem allows it to continue.

I would remove the problem of the kids with drug addict parents by either removing the drugs or the parents before a baby is in the pipe. In some cases, I have personally seen the hardline on drugs make huge improvements. It is at the cost of perceived rights. I know about drugs.. it is a hell all its own. What should the rights be of a businessman that chooses to addict ppl to drugs so as to be wealthy? That money is so big that it can control entire nations.

I know my hard-line ideas are not popular in some circles, I accept that.

I think you're suggesting that it would be ok to take resources from me against my will to give to another in need. I don't agree with that. That is exactly what the current US health care system does. And to make it worse the level of financial corruption with the system is huge so that much of that taking goes to ppl that do not have a need.

If you/we and and others choose to give and help, that is really a good thing. It is very good if you choose to help. It is bad if a person is forced to help.
Ah so. Now I get it. You're all for poor folks getting assistance as long as you (and therefore essentially no one) don't have to pay for it. Magic fairy assistance. Something from nothing.

I wish you (and every other person) to always have higher than average wealth.
you are partially correct. I do not want anyone to "have to" pay for it. A volunteer is ok and desired. How can we, you, me, everyone create a social fabric that rewards both hard work and generosity. Instead of setting up a dictator to take from the hard-working and give to others.

One way is with leadership instead of management. Go out front and demonstrate by example. Too many tell others but hesitate themself because <insert the neverending list of reasons>.
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mystery
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by mystery »

Belindi wrote: June 12th, 2021, 5:38 am
LuckyR wrote: June 12th, 2021, 2:16 am
mystery wrote: June 11th, 2021, 5:31 am
LuckyR wrote: June 11th, 2021, 2:09 am

I hate to break it to you but typing the words: dealt with, is not a plan to address kids of drug addicts.

Don't get me wrong, you give good advice, but seem to have a blind spot to the fact that a percentage of folks won't take good advice. Kids of these people are the innocent victims of that fact and I, for one, do not support standing idly by when there are ample resources available to help folks. What are we saving those resources for that is a better use of them?
cool, I respect anyone for taking care of an innocent.

I did mistype, I mean to deal with the drug addict, not the kid. my bad on that. And yes, a drug addiction is a pain all its own with root causes, another great topic. The ones getting rich from that pain need to be addressed or dealt with, and of course, they also have a root cause. The actual addict also needs to be helped or removed. When we trace these things back, the core drivers are only a few. The abuse of a child in a drug house is so bad it is not ok. Being soft on the problem allows it to continue.

I would remove the problem of the kids with drug addict parents by either removing the drugs or the parents before a baby is in the pipe. In some cases, I have personally seen the hardline on drugs make huge improvements. It is at the cost of perceived rights. I know about drugs.. it is a hell all its own. What should the rights be of a businessman that chooses to addict ppl to drugs so as to be wealthy? That money is so big that it can control entire nations.

I know my hard-line ideas are not popular in some circles, I accept that.

I think you're suggesting that it would be ok to take resources from me against my will to give to another in need. I don't agree with that. That is exactly what the current US health care system does. And to make it worse the level of financial corruption with the system is huge so that much of that taking goes to ppl that do not have a need.

If you/we and and others choose to give and help, that is really a good thing. It is very good if you choose to help. It is bad if a person is forced to help.
Ah so. Now I get it. You're all for poor folks getting assistance as long as you (and therefore essentially no one) don't have to pay for it. Magic fairy assistance. Something from nothing.

I wish you (and every other person) to always have higher than average wealth.
The cause of the disease is drugs. So hardline-wise get rid of the disease by policing and bringing to justice the drugs profiteers. True, drugs is a huge question with issues of poverty among third world farmers, international crime organisations, costs to the public purse of policing, social psychology of decriminalising recreational drugs or some of them, and enriching the lives of poor people ( drug taking is largely a psychiatric disease of meaningless living).

Clinical care for people who are ill whether from drug taking or any other social or natural disease is a no-brainer. Certainly those of us who can pay money should pay money to take care of ill people. Taking care of others is what civilised people do.
I like what you tell, but it does not work. Instead, meet force with force so that a place of peace can exist. Peace through strength. Perhaps the US does not exist without that behavior. WW2 could have gone another way.

Hard triage decisions are sometimes needed. Military commanders know it, emergency room Dr. knows it, anyone with many that they care for knows it.

If there is no clinical care, do we just leave the problem to infect others?

I can still remember being a child and having someone accuses me of not fighting fair. The graveyard is full of ppl that did fight fair. There is no room and zero tolerance for drugs in a community. The root cause is usually a businessman that is greedy. Greed...

If we allow someone to add drugs to almost any young person they will be in trouble in multiple ways very soon.

Men of responsibility make a safe place for children, families, men, and women.

Interesting topic, maybe we are off the topic already but it's ok for me.
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by Belindi »

Nothing " works". The best practical strategy is to withdraw the causes of the disease and also clinically treat the ill people.
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mystery
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by mystery »

Belindi wrote: June 12th, 2021, 9:01 am Nothing " works". The best practical strategy is to withdraw the causes of the disease and also clinically treat the ill people.
I agree.

Remove the drugs and treat the victims.

In a triage situation with limited resources, what action will get more results faster for more ppl? I think it is to get rid of the drugs, that of course leads to the question of priority vs other goals such as happiness for all (including corrupt men and women that are making profits from this issue).

Can not heal the community until the disease is removed.
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LuckyR
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by LuckyR »

mystery wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:03 am
Belindi wrote: June 12th, 2021, 9:01 am Nothing " works". The best practical strategy is to withdraw the causes of the disease and also clinically treat the ill people.
I agree.

Remove the drugs and treat the victims.

In a triage situation with limited resources, what action will get more results faster for more ppl? I think it is to get rid of the drugs, that of course leads to the question of priority vs other goals such as happiness for all (including corrupt men and women that are making profits from this issue).

Can not heal the community until the disease is removed.
Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do. Though I am open to your suggestions.
"As usual... it depends."
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mystery
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by mystery »

LuckyR wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:50 am
mystery wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:03 am
Belindi wrote: June 12th, 2021, 9:01 am Nothing " works". The best practical strategy is to withdraw the causes of the disease and also clinically treat the ill people.
I agree.

Remove the drugs and treat the victims.

In a triage situation with limited resources, what action will get more results faster for more ppl? I think it is to get rid of the drugs, that of course leads to the question of priority vs other goals such as happiness for all (including corrupt men and women that are making profits from this issue).

Can not heal the community until the disease is removed.
Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do. Though I am open to your suggestions.
I know it is difficult. I have seen personally a very hardline approach to work It's not nice, it's not clean, it's not cool. I know of a a good-sized city that was completely overrun with drugs and drug lords. Daily addicts would rape young children and kill hard-working mothers and fathers all because of drugs. In this case shabu. I have seen others in other locations with cocaine and Herrion due huge damage to communities.

Today the place that had shabu controlling it, is safe, relatively clean, children play sports and play safely. It is now safe to walk the streets and roads at night. Before it was not safe even in the daylight.

As you said, easier said than done. In this place, it was done. Dealers and addicts executed. When it started, the fear of death became stronger than the addiction in some cases, many cases. Blood literally ran in the streets. All but the top/top drug lords are removed, why the top can not get is another story but with content that anyone could guess. No court technicalities, no expensive lawyers, just direct clean-up. Some would call this a blight on human rights, but if those ones saw the little children that had been abused and sometimes killed. If they had, some would accept the hard choices especially if it was a child of their own.

Some innocents also got accused and executed...

It was terrible.. Now the problem is all but gone and it's a clean and growing area, the economy picked up, education picked up, everything followed.

One of the ideas that help is to rotate law enforcement between cities just like the military does for soldiers.

I tell a terrible story. But what would we tell those that are victims of the drugs and drug lords if we do nothing? It is a little like the choice of killing a baby to cure cancer.

I would love to hear other ideas of how to do it. I think any real solutions will step on some perceived human rights. If we treat everyone, who will pay, and what is the success rate of treatment. Do we have the stomach to execute? If we do nothing the problem gets worse. Politics runs on money and drugs have money.
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by Belindi »

mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 5:54 am
LuckyR wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:50 am
mystery wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:03 am
Belindi wrote: June 12th, 2021, 9:01 am Nothing " works". The best practical strategy is to withdraw the causes of the disease and also clinically treat the ill people.
I agree.

Remove the drugs and treat the victims.

In a triage situation with limited resources, what action will get more results faster for more ppl? I think it is to get rid of the drugs, that of course leads to the question of priority vs other goals such as happiness for all (including corrupt men and women that are making profits from this issue).

Can not heal the community until the disease is removed.
Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do. Though I am open to your suggestions.
I know it is difficult. I have seen personally a very hardline approach to work It's not nice, it's not clean, it's not cool. I know of a a good-sized city that was completely overrun with drugs and drug lords. Daily addicts would rape young children and kill hard-working mothers and fathers all because of drugs. In this case shabu. I have seen others in other locations with cocaine and Herrion due huge damage to communities.

Today the place that had shabu controlling it, is safe, relatively clean, children play sports and play safely. It is now safe to walk the streets and roads at night. Before it was not safe even in the daylight.

As you said, easier said than done. In this place, it was done. Dealers and addicts executed. When it started, the fear of death became stronger than the addiction in some cases, many cases. Blood literally ran in the streets. All but the top/top drug lords are removed, why the top can not get is another story but with content that anyone could guess. No court technicalities, no expensive lawyers, just direct clean-up. Some would call this a blight on human rights, but if those ones saw the little children that had been abused and sometimes killed. If they had, some would accept the hard choices especially if it was a child of their own.

Some innocents also got accused and executed...

It was terrible.. Now the problem is all but gone and it's a clean and growing area, the economy picked up, education picked up, everything followed.

One of the ideas that help is to rotate law enforcement between cities just like the military does for soldiers.

I tell a terrible story. But what would we tell those that are victims of the drugs and drug lords if we do nothing? It is a little like the choice of killing a baby to cure cancer.

I would love to hear other ideas of how to do it. I think any real solutions will step on some perceived human rights. If we treat everyone, who will pay, and what is the success rate of treatment. Do we have the stomach to execute? If we do nothing the problem gets worse. Politics runs on money and drugs have money.
If you kill the criminals and not the conditions that cause the crime then the crime has not been dealt with.
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by popeye1945 »

Sam Harris on free will.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sa ... &FORM=VIRE

The illusion of free will underlines Sy Borgs point here. After Dr. Harris's presentation here I think maintaining a concept of free will must have something to do with egocentricity.
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by LuckyR »

mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 5:54 am
LuckyR wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:50 am
mystery wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:03 am
Belindi wrote: June 12th, 2021, 9:01 am Nothing " works". The best practical strategy is to withdraw the causes of the disease and also clinically treat the ill people.
I agree.

Remove the drugs and treat the victims.

In a triage situation with limited resources, what action will get more results faster for more ppl? I think it is to get rid of the drugs, that of course leads to the question of priority vs other goals such as happiness for all (including corrupt men and women that are making profits from this issue).

Can not heal the community until the disease is removed.
Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do. Though I am open to your suggestions.
I know it is difficult. I have seen personally a very hardline approach to work It's not nice, it's not clean, it's not cool. I know of a a good-sized city that was completely overrun with drugs and drug lords. Daily addicts would rape young children and kill hard-working mothers and fathers all because of drugs. In this case shabu. I have seen others in other locations with cocaine and Herrion due huge damage to communities.

Today the place that had shabu controlling it, is safe, relatively clean, children play sports and play safely. It is now safe to walk the streets and roads at night. Before it was not safe even in the daylight.

As you said, easier said than done. In this place, it was done. Dealers and addicts executed. When it started, the fear of death became stronger than the addiction in some cases, many cases. Blood literally ran in the streets. All but the top/top drug lords are removed, why the top can not get is another story but with content that anyone could guess. No court technicalities, no expensive lawyers, just direct clean-up. Some would call this a blight on human rights, but if those ones saw the little children that had been abused and sometimes killed. If they had, some would accept the hard choices especially if it was a child of their own.

Some innocents also got accused and executed...

It was terrible.. Now the problem is all but gone and it's a clean and growing area, the economy picked up, education picked up, everything followed.

One of the ideas that help is to rotate law enforcement between cities just like the military does for soldiers.

I tell a terrible story. But what would we tell those that are victims of the drugs and drug lords if we do nothing? It is a little like the choice of killing a baby to cure cancer.

I would love to hear other ideas of how to do it. I think any real solutions will step on some perceived human rights. If we treat everyone, who will pay, and what is the success rate of treatment. Do we have the stomach to execute? If we do nothing the problem gets worse. Politics runs on money and drugs have money.
Are you talking about the Philippines?

What about regular drug use in a regular city? Folks would never accept a "solution" that is ten times worse than the problem.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by mystery »

LuckyR wrote: June 15th, 2021, 1:46 pm
mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 5:54 am
LuckyR wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:50 am
mystery wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:03 am
I agree.

Remove the drugs and treat the victims.

In a triage situation with limited resources, what action will get more results faster for more ppl? I think it is to get rid of the drugs, that of course leads to the question of priority vs other goals such as happiness for all (including corrupt men and women that are making profits from this issue).

Can not heal the community until the disease is removed.
Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do. Though I am open to your suggestions.
I know it is difficult. I have seen personally a very hardline approach to work It's not nice, it's not clean, it's not cool. I know of a a good-sized city that was completely overrun with drugs and drug lords. Daily addicts would rape young children and kill hard-working mothers and fathers all because of drugs. In this case shabu. I have seen others in other locations with cocaine and Herrion due huge damage to communities.

Today the place that had shabu controlling it, is safe, relatively clean, children play sports and play safely. It is now safe to walk the streets and roads at night. Before it was not safe even in the daylight.

As you said, easier said than done. In this place, it was done. Dealers and addicts executed. When it started, the fear of death became stronger than the addiction in some cases, many cases. Blood literally ran in the streets. All but the top/top drug lords are removed, why the top can not get is another story but with content that anyone could guess. No court technicalities, no expensive lawyers, just direct clean-up. Some would call this a blight on human rights, but if those ones saw the little children that had been abused and sometimes killed. If they had, some would accept the hard choices especially if it was a child of their own.

Some innocents also got accused and executed...

It was terrible.. Now the problem is all but gone and it's a clean and growing area, the economy picked up, education picked up, everything followed.

One of the ideas that help is to rotate law enforcement between cities just like the military does for soldiers.

I tell a terrible story. But what would we tell those that are victims of the drugs and drug lords if we do nothing? It is a little like the choice of killing a baby to cure cancer.

I would love to hear other ideas of how to do it. I think any real solutions will step on some perceived human rights. If we treat everyone, who will pay, and what is the success rate of treatment. Do we have the stomach to execute? If we do nothing the problem gets worse. Politics runs on money and drugs have money.
Are you talking about the Philippines?

What about regular drug use in a regular city? Folks would never accept a "solution" that is ten times worse than the problem.
Ten times worse is relative. I know most will not accept it, I understand that.

Most big win require big risk and big change.

Many US cities if that is what you call regular, and those not like your city are called not regular.. Those ones perhaps one in 5 houses have some drug problem on average. Go sometime and make friends with the local police, they know. Even in suburbian smaller towns, many meth houses exist. Public schools are full of it. Ever visit a university party.....

If I have to choose between a middle-aged corrupt businessman and a teenager that is just starting to open their mind, I will defend the child. If I do nothing the older one wins. Not perfect solutions for not perfect world.

To be clear, I don't like it but it is what it is.

We are for sure off-topic now :) But this situation is part of the cost of health care.

Is a better solution available, that will work and is more kind? I hope.
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by mystery »

Belindi wrote: June 15th, 2021, 9:09 am
mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 5:54 am
LuckyR wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:50 am
mystery wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:03 am
I agree.

Remove the drugs and treat the victims.

In a triage situation with limited resources, what action will get more results faster for more ppl? I think it is to get rid of the drugs, that of course leads to the question of priority vs other goals such as happiness for all (including corrupt men and women that are making profits from this issue).

Can not heal the community until the disease is removed.
Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do. Though I am open to your suggestions.
I know it is difficult. I have seen personally a very hardline approach to work It's not nice, it's not clean, it's not cool. I know of a a good-sized city that was completely overrun with drugs and drug lords. Daily addicts would rape young children and kill hard-working mothers and fathers all because of drugs. In this case shabu. I have seen others in other locations with cocaine and Herrion due huge damage to communities.

Today the place that had shabu controlling it, is safe, relatively clean, children play sports and play safely. It is now safe to walk the streets and roads at night. Before it was not safe even in the daylight.

As you said, easier said than done. In this place, it was done. Dealers and addicts executed. When it started, the fear of death became stronger than the addiction in some cases, many cases. Blood literally ran in the streets. All but the top/top drug lords are removed, why the top can not get is another story but with content that anyone could guess. No court technicalities, no expensive lawyers, just direct clean-up. Some would call this a blight on human rights, but if those ones saw the little children that had been abused and sometimes killed. If they had, some would accept the hard choices especially if it was a child of their own.

Some innocents also got accused and executed...

It was terrible.. Now the problem is all but gone and it's a clean and growing area, the economy picked up, education picked up, everything followed.

One of the ideas that help is to rotate law enforcement between cities just like the military does for soldiers.

I tell a terrible story. But what would we tell those that are victims of the drugs and drug lords if we do nothing? It is a little like the choice of killing a baby to cure cancer.

I would love to hear other ideas of how to do it. I think any real solutions will step on some perceived human rights. If we treat everyone, who will pay, and what is the success rate of treatment. Do we have the stomach to execute? If we do nothing the problem gets worse. Politics runs on money and drugs have money.
If you kill the criminals and not the conditions that cause the crime then the crime has not been dealt with.
I agree completely. In this case, it has to do with tolerance of corruption. As long as cash is king corruption is possible. That would cycle us back around to some other threads about the style of government and what is best. It comes down to what will leadership do to achieve leadership and what will they do to ensure peace.

Cause and reaction, your exactly right. and then what is the cause of the cause.. We can tie it all back to family relations and even before. A child without a mommy and daddy does not get a balanced mind. if we go after and solve those problems it will waterfall so many other issues.
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by LuckyR »

mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 8:20 pm
LuckyR wrote: June 15th, 2021, 1:46 pm
mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 5:54 am
LuckyR wrote: June 14th, 2021, 1:50 am

Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do. Though I am open to your suggestions.
I know it is difficult. I have seen personally a very hardline approach to work It's not nice, it's not clean, it's not cool. I know of a a good-sized city that was completely overrun with drugs and drug lords. Daily addicts would rape young children and kill hard-working mothers and fathers all because of drugs. In this case shabu. I have seen others in other locations with cocaine and Herrion due huge damage to communities.

Today the place that had shabu controlling it, is safe, relatively clean, children play sports and play safely. It is now safe to walk the streets and roads at night. Before it was not safe even in the daylight.

As you said, easier said than done. In this place, it was done. Dealers and addicts executed. When it started, the fear of death became stronger than the addiction in some cases, many cases. Blood literally ran in the streets. All but the top/top drug lords are removed, why the top can not get is another story but with content that anyone could guess. No court technicalities, no expensive lawyers, just direct clean-up. Some would call this a blight on human rights, but if those ones saw the little children that had been abused and sometimes killed. If they had, some would accept the hard choices especially if it was a child of their own.

Some innocents also got accused and executed...

It was terrible.. Now the problem is all but gone and it's a clean and growing area, the economy picked up, education picked up, everything followed.

One of the ideas that help is to rotate law enforcement between cities just like the military does for soldiers.

I tell a terrible story. But what would we tell those that are victims of the drugs and drug lords if we do nothing? It is a little like the choice of killing a baby to cure cancer.

I would love to hear other ideas of how to do it. I think any real solutions will step on some perceived human rights. If we treat everyone, who will pay, and what is the success rate of treatment. Do we have the stomach to execute? If we do nothing the problem gets worse. Politics runs on money and drugs have money.
Are you talking about the Philippines?

What about regular drug use in a regular city? Folks would never accept a "solution" that is ten times worse than the problem.
Ten times worse is relative. I know most will not accept it, I understand that.

Most big win require big risk and big change.

Many US cities if that is what you call regular, and those not like your city are called not regular.. Those ones perhaps one in 5 houses have some drug problem on average. Go sometime and make friends with the local police, they know. Even in suburbian smaller towns, many meth houses exist. Public schools are full of it. Ever visit a university party.....

If I have to choose between a middle-aged corrupt businessman and a teenager that is just starting to open their mind, I will defend the child. If I do nothing the older one wins. Not perfect solutions for not perfect world.

To be clear, I don't like it but it is what it is.

We are for sure off-topic now :) But this situation is part of the cost of health care.

Is a better solution available, that will work and is more kind? I hope.
What you are proposing might make some sense if the suppliers created the demand. If that was true, getting rid of the suppliers would decrease the demand thus there would no market for replacement suppliers. Unfortunately that is not true. As long as there is demand, applying pressure to the suppliers without addressing the demand is an endless game of whack-a-mole.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by mystery »

LuckyR wrote: June 16th, 2021, 2:27 am
mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 8:20 pm
LuckyR wrote: June 15th, 2021, 1:46 pm
mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 5:54 am
I know it is difficult. I have seen personally a very hardline approach to work It's not nice, it's not clean, it's not cool. I know of a a good-sized city that was completely overrun with drugs and drug lords. Daily addicts would rape young children and kill hard-working mothers and fathers all because of drugs. In this case shabu. I have seen others in other locations with cocaine and Herrion due huge damage to communities.

Today the place that had shabu controlling it, is safe, relatively clean, children play sports and play safely. It is now safe to walk the streets and roads at night. Before it was not safe even in the daylight.

As you said, easier said than done. In this place, it was done. Dealers and addicts executed. When it started, the fear of death became stronger than the addiction in some cases, many cases. Blood literally ran in the streets. All but the top/top drug lords are removed, why the top can not get is another story but with content that anyone could guess. No court technicalities, no expensive lawyers, just direct clean-up. Some would call this a blight on human rights, but if those ones saw the little children that had been abused and sometimes killed. If they had, some would accept the hard choices especially if it was a child of their own.

Some innocents also got accused and executed...

It was terrible.. Now the problem is all but gone and it's a clean and growing area, the economy picked up, education picked up, everything followed.

One of the ideas that help is to rotate law enforcement between cities just like the military does for soldiers.

I tell a terrible story. But what would we tell those that are victims of the drugs and drug lords if we do nothing? It is a little like the choice of killing a baby to cure cancer.

I would love to hear other ideas of how to do it. I think any real solutions will step on some perceived human rights. If we treat everyone, who will pay, and what is the success rate of treatment. Do we have the stomach to execute? If we do nothing the problem gets worse. Politics runs on money and drugs have money.
Are you talking about the Philippines?

What about regular drug use in a regular city? Folks would never accept a "solution" that is ten times worse than the problem.
Ten times worse is relative. I know most will not accept it, I understand that.

Most big win require big risk and big change.

Many US cities if that is what you call regular, and those not like your city are called not regular.. Those ones perhaps one in 5 houses have some drug problem on average. Go sometime and make friends with the local police, they know. Even in suburbian smaller towns, many meth houses exist. Public schools are full of it. Ever visit a university party.....

If I have to choose between a middle-aged corrupt businessman and a teenager that is just starting to open their mind, I will defend the child. If I do nothing the older one wins. Not perfect solutions for not perfect world.

To be clear, I don't like it but it is what it is.

We are for sure off-topic now :) But this situation is part of the cost of health care.

Is a better solution available, that will work and is more kind? I hope.
What you are proposing might make some sense if the suppliers created the demand. If that was true, getting rid of the suppliers would decrease the demand thus there would no market for replacement suppliers. Unfortunately that is not true. As long as there is demand, applying pressure to the suppliers without addressing the demand is an endless game of whack-a-mole.
I know, that's why what I have seen done worked, removal of both. And fear for life that could break an addiction. I have seen it, it worked. The cost is much.
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Re: Healthcare as a Service vs Healthcare as a Business?

Post by Belindi »

mystery wrote: June 16th, 2021, 3:38 am
LuckyR wrote: June 16th, 2021, 2:27 am
mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 8:20 pm
LuckyR wrote: June 15th, 2021, 1:46 pm

Are you talking about the Philippines?

What about regular drug use in a regular city? Folks would never accept a "solution" that is ten times worse than the problem.
Ten times worse is relative. I know most will not accept it, I understand that.

Most big win require big risk and big change.

Many US cities if that is what you call regular, and those not like your city are called not regular.. Those ones perhaps one in 5 houses have some drug problem on average. Go sometime and make friends with the local police, they know. Even in suburbian smaller towns, many meth houses exist. Public schools are full of it. Ever visit a university party.....

If I have to choose between a middle-aged corrupt businessman and a teenager that is just starting to open their mind, I will defend the child. If I do nothing the older one wins. Not perfect solutions for not perfect world.

To be clear, I don't like it but it is what it is.

We are for sure off-topic now :) But this situation is part of the cost of health care.

Is a better solution available, that will work and is more kind? I hope.
What you are proposing might make some sense if the suppliers created the demand. If that was true, getting rid of the suppliers would decrease the demand thus there would no market for replacement suppliers. Unfortunately that is not true. As long as there is demand, applying pressure to the suppliers without addressing the demand is an endless game of whack-a-mole.
I know, that's why what I have seen done worked, removal of both. And fear for life that could break an addiction. I have seen it, it worked. The cost is much.

But how can killing criminals stop desire for illegal activities?
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