Where's the alternative medicine?

[LuckyR]

Well "marginalized" in the sense that it is ignored. If you can successfully treat your sore muscles with turmeric, why would you go to a doctor?

You're preaching to the choir.

Why should he be an expert in something that you can get at the grocery store? Doctors can write prescriptions for medications that you can't otherwise obtain. So if you can solve your problem with meditation, or yoga, or herbs, or acupuncture that's fantastic. I've never met a Western medicine practitioner who seeks to fill their appointment slots with people whose symptoms can be controlled in the absence of surgery or prescription drugs.

Ah, it's pharma not doctors. The pressure they put on WHO and the FDA. It's their anti-alternative propaganda which they send to different media to highlight problems or hallucinate them related to alternative approaches and they of course use their money to downplay the problems with their approaches.

I'm not familiar with the legislation that you're referring to. Please provide more details about it.

The Codex Alimentarius
In Europe they passed legislation it must be 10 years ago and it was part of driving most of the independent alternative health stores out of the city I live in. So many products could no longer be sold. I could still buy cigarrettes - which are partially an herb, in a nice deadly mixture - alcohol, McDonalds food, products with palm oil, smoked meat and so on, but a number of herbs and other products just could not be purchased anymore, despite no evidence they were as dangerous as any of those other products.

Big Pharma has control of the FDA via funding it and revolving door hiring with it and via lobbying.

That doesn't quite make total sense as the FDA doesn't regulate herbs, supplements etc, so Pharma's interest in the FDA is to promote their products not suppress Alternatives.

As to the Codex, I assume you are aware that following it is voluntary by each signitory nation. So if your home country made certain products unavailable (which I'd appreciate learning any you can name) it did so on it's own.

[Sushan]

I think that that is true for some, but not for all. Some drugs are accidentally found to be effective for some other illness out of the medicine's known and basic focus. Such drugs can be taken as emerging alternative medicine.

I believe "most" is more accurate than "some". Name the first 5 forms of alternative medicine that come to your mind and we'll see.

Here are some that came to my mind as alternative medicine.

1. Aloe vera: a plant that is often used to soothe skin irritations and burns, and may also help to relieve digestive issues such as constipation and acid reflux.

2. Garlic: a natural antimicrobial that may help to boost the immune system and fight off infections, as well as lower blood pressure and cholesterol levels.

3. Peppermint: an herb that may help to relieve digestive issues such as indigestion, gas, and bloating.

4. Turmeric: a spice that contains a powerful anti-inflammatory compound called curcumin, which may help to reduce inflammation and pain associated with conditions such as arthritis and digestive issues.

5. Honey: a natural sweetener that also has antibacterial and anti-inflammatory properties, and is often used to soothe sore throats and coughs.

Exactly my point. 5 out of 5 predate Modern medicine.

You're right, the examples provided indeed predate modern medicine. These forms of alternative medicine have been used for centuries in various cultures, and their long-standing use speaks to their potential effectiveness in treating certain conditions. However, it's important to note that alternative medicine can and does evolve over time, as new discoveries and scientific understanding expand our knowledge of natural remedies and their applications.

While the examples given are traditional forms of alternative medicine, there are also more recent developments in this field. As we continue to study and learn about the potential benefits of various natural substances, we might come across new uses for them or even discover entirely new treatments that can be considered emerging alternative medicine.

[Sushan]

Treehugger,
alternative medicine is a temporal thing, if it proves to be effective it is soon brought into contemporary medicine.

If they can patent it in some way. Otherwise it is not worth the pharmacological company's time to got through expensive research and testing. They do that and then anyone can sell the substance or treatment. So, it gets marginalized. There has also be a wave of legislation to make it harder to get alternative medicine.

You raise a valid point about the challenges faced by alternative medicine in terms of research, testing, and potential incorporation into mainstream medicine. The high costs associated with these processes and the lack of exclusivity for certain natural substances can indeed hinder their adoption by pharmaceutical companies. Additionally, the increased regulatory hurdles can make it more difficult for alternative medicine to gain widespread acceptance.

However, it's also important to recognize that many alternative treatments continue to be studied, and some have already been incorporated into contemporary medicine. As research progresses and our understanding of the mechanisms behind these natural remedies grows, we might see an increase in the integration of alternative medicine into mainstream healthcare.

Furthermore, there's a growing interest among consumers and healthcare practitioners in exploring alternative treatments and holistic approaches to health. This could potentially lead to more support for research and development in the field of alternative medicine, and eventually, to a broader acceptance and use of these treatments in conjunction with conventional medical practices.

[Sushan]

Treehugger,
alternative medicine is a temporal thing, if it proves to be effective it is soon brought into contemporary medicine.

If they can patent it in some way. Otherwise it is not worth the pharmacological company's time to got through expensive research and testing. They do that and then anyone can sell the substance or treatment. So, it gets marginalized. There has also be a wave of legislation to make it harder to get alternative medicine.

Well "marginalized" in the sense that it is ignored. If you can successfully treat your sore muscles with turmeric, why would you go to a doctor? Why should he be an expert in something that you can get at the grocery store? Doctors can write prescriptions for medications that you can't otherwise obtain. So if you can solve your problem with meditation, or yoga, or herbs, or acupuncture that's fantastic. I've never met a Western medicine practitioner who seeks to fill their appointment slots with people whose symptoms can be controlled in the absence of surgery or prescription drugs.

I'm not familiar with the legislation that you're referring to. Please provide more details about it.

You make a valid point about the role of alternative medicine in addressing various health issues that may not require conventional medical intervention. Indeed, many individuals find relief and effective treatment through alternative methods, such as meditation, yoga, herbs, or acupuncture, without having to visit a doctor for prescription medications or surgery.

As for the legislation related to alternative medicine, the specifics may vary depending on the country or region. In some cases, regulatory bodies seek to ensure the safety and efficacy of alternative treatments by imposing certain restrictions or requirements for their use. This might include licensing and certification for practitioners, labeling requirements for herbal products, or limits on the claims that can be made about the health benefits of certain treatments.

While these regulations are intended to protect consumers and maintain high standards of care, they can also make it more challenging for alternative medicine to gain widespread acceptance and use. However, as public interest in alternative treatments continues to grow, it is possible that we will see changes in the regulatory landscape that promote a more balanced approach to healthcare, combining the best of both conventional and alternative medicine.

[Sushan]

Well "marginalized" in the sense that it is ignored. If you can successfully treat your sore muscles with turmeric, why would you go to a doctor?

You're preaching to the choir.

Why should he be an expert in something that you can get at the grocery store? Doctors can write prescriptions for medications that you can't otherwise obtain. So if you can solve your problem with meditation, or yoga, or herbs, or acupuncture that's fantastic. I've never met a Western medicine practitioner who seeks to fill their appointment slots with people whose symptoms can be controlled in the absence of surgery or prescription drugs.

Ah, it's pharma not doctors. The pressure they put on WHO and the FDA. It's their anti-alternative propaganda which they send to different media to highlight problems or hallucinate them related to alternative approaches and they of course use their money to downplay the problems with their approaches.

I'm not familiar with the legislation that you're referring to. Please provide more details about it.

The Codex Alimentarius
In Europe they passed legislation it must be 10 years ago and it was part of driving most of the independent alternative health stores out of the city I live in. So many products could no longer be sold. I could still buy cigarrettes - which are partially an herb, in a nice deadly mixture - alcohol, McDonalds food, products with palm oil, smoked meat and so on, but a number of herbs and other products just could not be purchased anymore, despite no evidence they were as dangerous as any of those other products.

Big Pharma has control of the FDA via funding it and revolving door hiring with it and via lobbying.

It's true that the pharmaceutical industry wields significant influence over regulatory bodies like the WHO and FDA, and that their interests may sometimes conflict with the promotion of alternative medicine. In some cases, this can lead to negative portrayals of alternative medicine in the media and the implementation of restrictive regulations, such as the Codex Alimentarius in Europe.

However, it's important to recognize that not all doctors or medical professionals are influenced by the pharmaceutical industry's agenda. Many healthcare practitioners genuinely want to help their patients and are open to exploring a variety of treatments, including alternative methods, if they believe it will benefit their patients.

In the interest of public health, it is essential for regulatory bodies to strike a balance between ensuring the safety and efficacy of treatments, and allowing people access to diverse healthcare options that best suit their needs. This includes providing accurate, unbiased information about the benefits and risks of both conventional and alternative therapies, and fostering an environment where people can make informed decisions about their health.

[Sushan]

Well "marginalized" in the sense that it is ignored. If you can successfully treat your sore muscles with turmeric, why would you go to a doctor?

You're preaching to the choir.

Why should he be an expert in something that you can get at the grocery store? Doctors can write prescriptions for medications that you can't otherwise obtain. So if you can solve your problem with meditation, or yoga, or herbs, or acupuncture that's fantastic. I've never met a Western medicine practitioner who seeks to fill their appointment slots with people whose symptoms can be controlled in the absence of surgery or prescription drugs.

Ah, it's pharma not doctors. The pressure they put on WHO and the FDA. It's their anti-alternative propaganda which they send to different media to highlight problems or hallucinate them related to alternative approaches and they of course use their money to downplay the problems with their approaches.

I'm not familiar with the legislation that you're referring to. Please provide more details about it.

The Codex Alimentarius
In Europe they passed legislation it must be 10 years ago and it was part of driving most of the independent alternative health stores out of the city I live in. So many products could no longer be sold. I could still buy cigarrettes - which are partially an herb, in a nice deadly mixture - alcohol, McDonalds food, products with palm oil, smoked meat and so on, but a number of herbs and other products just could not be purchased anymore, despite no evidence they were as dangerous as any of those other products.

Big Pharma has control of the FDA via funding it and revolving door hiring with it and via lobbying.

That doesn't quite make total sense as the FDA doesn't regulate herbs, supplements etc, so Pharma's interest in the FDA is to promote their products not suppress Alternatives.

As to the Codex, I assume you are aware that following it is voluntary by each signitory nation. So if your home country made certain products unavailable (which I'd appreciate learning any you can name) it did so on it's own.

You make a valid point that the FDA's primary focus is on regulating pharmaceuticals, and its role in regulating herbs, supplements, and other alternative medicine options is limited. However, the influence of pharmaceutical companies on regulatory bodies can still extend to shaping public perception and policy surrounding alternative medicine, even if it's not a direct suppression of alternatives.

Regarding the Codex Alimentarius, you're correct that it is a voluntary framework and each signatory nation can choose to implement its guidelines to varying degrees. If certain alternative medicine products have become unavailable in a specific country, it is due to that country's implementation of the guidelines, rather than the Codex itself. It is important to recognize the difference between the intentions of the Codex Alimentarius, which aims to protect consumer health and ensure fair trade practices, and the potential misuse of its guidelines by individual countries.

[LuckyR]

Well "marginalized" in the sense that it is ignored. If you can successfully treat your sore muscles with turmeric, why would you go to a doctor?

You're preaching to the choir.

Why should he be an expert in something that you can get at the grocery store? Doctors can write prescriptions for medications that you can't otherwise obtain. So if you can solve your problem with meditation, or yoga, or herbs, or acupuncture that's fantastic. I've never met a Western medicine practitioner who seeks to fill their appointment slots with people whose symptoms can be controlled in the absence of surgery or prescription drugs.

Ah, it's pharma not doctors. The pressure they put on WHO and the FDA. It's their anti-alternative propaganda which they send to different media to highlight problems or hallucinate them related to alternative approaches and they of course use their money to downplay the problems with their approaches.

I'm not familiar with the legislation that you're referring to. Please provide more details about it.

The Codex Alimentarius
In Europe they passed legislation it must be 10 years ago and it was part of driving most of the independent alternative health stores out of the city I live in. So many products could no longer be sold. I could still buy cigarrettes - which are partially an herb, in a nice deadly mixture - alcohol, McDonalds food, products with palm oil, smoked meat and so on, but a number of herbs and other products just could not be purchased anymore, despite no evidence they were as dangerous as any of those other products.

Big Pharma has control of the FDA via funding it and revolving door hiring with it and via lobbying.

That doesn't quite make total sense as the FDA doesn't regulate herbs, supplements etc, so Pharma's interest in the FDA is to promote their products not suppress Alternatives.

As to the Codex, I assume you are aware that following it is voluntary by each signitory nation. So if your home country made certain products unavailable (which I'd appreciate learning any you can name) it did so on it's own.

You make a valid point that the FDA's primary focus is on regulating pharmaceuticals, and its role in regulating herbs, supplements, and other alternative medicine options is limited. However, the influence of pharmaceutical companies on regulatory bodies can still extend to shaping public perception and policy surrounding alternative medicine, even if it's not a direct suppression of alternatives.

Regarding the Codex Alimentarius, you're correct that it is a voluntary framework and each signatory nation can choose to implement its guidelines to varying degrees. If certain alternative medicine products have become unavailable in a specific country, it is due to that country's implementation of the guidelines, rather than the Codex itself. It is important to recognize the difference between the intentions of the Codex Alimentarius, which aims to protect consumer health and ensure fair trade practices, and the potential misuse of its guidelines by individual countries.

Seems like we are in agreement. I have no particular opinion on alternative vs Western medicine. My interest is in debunking the idea that there is a conspiracy to keep unknown "miracle cures" away from the public by sinister forces specifically for economic reasons. As if these sinister forces could not figure out a way to monetize miracle cures (if they existed).

[Agent Smyth]

Alternative medicine is synonymous with quackery in the eyes of science. It survives debunking efforts only because it exploits the fears and hopes of folks with fatal and incurable illnesses e.g. cancer. Skeptics in the Western world have been highly critical of alternative medicine because it, at the end of the day, amounts to cheating sick people out of their hard-earned money - adding insult to injury as it were.

However, despite the bad rap it suffers from, alternative "medicine" may open new avenues for real medical research if practitioners of this "field" get lucky and do find a cure for (say) cancer.

Too, alternative medicine, its persistence despite its obvious ineffectiveness, serves as a good/constant reminder to mainstream medicine that it needs to get its act together - more effort has to be put in to find real cures for cancer for example.

[LuckyR]

Alternative medicine is synonymous with quackery in the eyes of science. It survives debunking efforts only because it exploits the fears and hopes of folks with fatal and incurable illnesses e.g. cancer. Skeptics in the Western world have been highly critical of alternative medicine because it, at the end of the day, amounts to cheating sick people out of their hard-earned money - adding insult to injury as it were.

However, despite the bad rap it suffers from, alternative "medicine" may open new avenues for real medical research if practitioners of this "field" get lucky and do find a cure for (say) cancer.

Too, alternative medicine, its persistence despite its obvious ineffectiveness, serves as a good/constant reminder to mainstream medicine that it needs to get its act together - more effort has to be put in to find real cures for cancer for example.

Dude, there's a lot more to medicine than cancer. Heck there's a lot more than actual disease. A huge part of medical practice is symptom management in the absence of significant disease, which BTW Western medicine isn't all that successful in treating.

[Stoppelmann]

A long time ago, I had various health problems that were dogging my life and my doctor suggested medicine that I my body didn’t tolerate, and I regularly had all of the side effects. I travelled to Sri Lanka (not for that reason) and spoke to a doctor there who used Ayuvedic cures alongside contemporary medicine, and he said that my problem was that I was taking systemic medicines for local ailments, and that my body was out of balance. He told me to change my diet and gave me a “mysterious” medicine in two bottles from which I was to take one jigger of each in the morning until the bottles were empty. One was sour and the other sweet and after the therapy I went back to my doctor and had my blood taken to compare the results to before the therapy.

When I called the doctor, who was a friend of mine, he jokingly said, “Next time you’ll have to come yourself!” I laughed but asked, “What do you mean?” He said the results were not comparable with the previous results, and all the readings that were pathological were well within the normal limits. He asked what I had done, and I told him, and his reaction was, “Are you crazy or something?” I told him that school medicine hadn’t solved the problems, and his reply was, “We’ll see how long it lasts!”

Since then, the problems I had have not returned, and I have an excellent bill of health. All the same, my story is met with scepsis amongst my peers (I work in a medical environment) although my interest in alternative medicine brought many solutions for our patients, mostly in alleviating their discomfort. Doctors to whom I made my suggestions generally said, “Okay, but it won’t heal them!” But I told them that healing was their task, as a nurse, I was about making the patients comfortable.

[Agent Smyth]

Alternative medicine is synonymous with quackery in the eyes of science. It survives debunking efforts only because it exploits the fears and hopes of folks with fatal and incurable illnesses e.g. cancer. Skeptics in the Western world have been highly critical of alternative medicine because it, at the end of the day, amounts to cheating sick people out of their hard-earned money - adding insult to injury as it were.

However, despite the bad rap it suffers from, alternative "medicine" may open new avenues for real medical research if practitioners of this "field" get lucky and do find a cure for (say) cancer.

Too, alternative medicine, its persistence despite its obvious ineffectiveness, serves as a good/constant reminder to mainstream medicine that it needs to get its act together - more effort has to be put in to find real cures for cancer for example.

Dude, there's a lot more to medicine than cancer. Heck there's a lot more than actual disease. A huge part of medical practice is symptom management in the absence of significant disease, which BTW Western medicine isn't all that successful in treating.

That may be true of course but I'm convinced we haven't realized the full potential of modern medicine. Even a cursory glance at pharmacological agents and concepts clearly demonstrates the power latent therein and in the hands of a good doctor it manifests in the form of content/satisfied "customers".

Returning to the matter of alternative medicine, cancer is a classic illness for which it's consulted for, as a last desperate measure against certain death. For that simple reason, allopathy has nothing to fear from alternative medicine - impending death renders the patient non compos mentis i.e. only the mad, as skeptics have been trying to communicate, turn to alternative medicine.

[LuckyR]

Alternative medicine is synonymous with quackery in the eyes of science. It survives debunking efforts only because it exploits the fears and hopes of folks with fatal and incurable illnesses e.g. cancer. Skeptics in the Western world have been highly critical of alternative medicine because it, at the end of the day, amounts to cheating sick people out of their hard-earned money - adding insult to injury as it were.

However, despite the bad rap it suffers from, alternative "medicine" may open new avenues for real medical research if practitioners of this "field" get lucky and do find a cure for (say) cancer.

Too, alternative medicine, its persistence despite its obvious ineffectiveness, serves as a good/constant reminder to mainstream medicine that it needs to get its act together - more effort has to be put in to find real cures for cancer for example.

Dude, there's a lot more to medicine than cancer. Heck there's a lot more than actual disease. A huge part of medical practice is symptom management in the absence of significant disease, which BTW Western medicine isn't all that successful in treating.

That may be true of course but I'm convinced we haven't realized the full potential of modern medicine. Even a cursory glance at pharmacological agents and concepts clearly demonstrates the power latent therein and in the hands of a good doctor it manifests in the form of content/satisfied "customers".

Returning to the matter of alternative medicine, cancer is a classic illness for which it's consulted for, as a last desperate measure against certain death. For that simple reason, allopathy has nothing to fear from alternative medicine - impending death renders the patient non compos mentis i.e. only the mad, as skeptics have been trying to communicate, turn to alternative medicine.

I think you're under the impression that alternative medicine is mainly laetrile and coffee enemas. While those exist in the world, most think of herbal supplements, meditation and acupuncture etc. That is, treatments for chronic symptoms without acute disease.

[Agent Smyth]

Alternative medicine is synonymous with quackery in the eyes of science. It survives debunking efforts only because it exploits the fears and hopes of folks with fatal and incurable illnesses e.g. cancer. Skeptics in the Western world have been highly critical of alternative medicine because it, at the end of the day, amounts to cheating sick people out of their hard-earned money - adding insult to injury as it were.

However, despite the bad rap it suffers from, alternative "medicine" may open new avenues for real medical research if practitioners of this "field" get lucky and do find a cure for (say) cancer.

Too, alternative medicine, its persistence despite its obvious ineffectiveness, serves as a good/constant reminder to mainstream medicine that it needs to get its act together - more effort has to be put in to find real cures for cancer for example.

Dude, there's a lot more to medicine than cancer. Heck there's a lot more than actual disease. A huge part of medical practice is symptom management in the absence of significant disease, which BTW Western medicine isn't all that successful in treating.

That may be true of course but I'm convinced we haven't realized the full potential of modern medicine. Even a cursory glance at pharmacological agents and concepts clearly demonstrates the power latent therein and in the hands of a good doctor it manifests in the form of content/satisfied "customers".

Returning to the matter of alternative medicine, cancer is a classic illness for which it's consulted for, as a last desperate measure against certain death. For that simple reason, allopathy has nothing to fear from alternative medicine - impending death renders the patient non compos mentis i.e. only the mad, as skeptics have been trying to communicate, turn to alternative medicine.

I think you're under the impression that alternative medicine is mainly laetrile and coffee enemas. While those exist in the world, most think of herbal supplements, meditation and acupuncture etc. That is, treatments for chronic symptoms without acute disease.

[Sushan]

You're preaching to the choir.

Ah, it's pharma not doctors. The pressure they put on WHO and the FDA. It's their anti-alternative propaganda which they send to different media to highlight problems or hallucinate them related to alternative approaches and they of course use their money to downplay the problems with their approaches.


The Codex Alimentarius
In Europe they passed legislation it must be 10 years ago and it was part of driving most of the independent alternative health stores out of the city I live in. So many products could no longer be sold. I could still buy cigarrettes - which are partially an herb, in a nice deadly mixture - alcohol, McDonalds food, products with palm oil, smoked meat and so on, but a number of herbs and other products just could not be purchased anymore, despite no evidence they were as dangerous as any of those other products.

Big Pharma has control of the FDA via funding it and revolving door hiring with it and via lobbying.

That doesn't quite make total sense as the FDA doesn't regulate herbs, supplements etc, so Pharma's interest in the FDA is to promote their products not suppress Alternatives.

As to the Codex, I assume you are aware that following it is voluntary by each signitory nation. So if your home country made certain products unavailable (which I'd appreciate learning any you can name) it did so on it's own.

You make a valid point that the FDA's primary focus is on regulating pharmaceuticals, and its role in regulating herbs, supplements, and other alternative medicine options is limited. However, the influence of pharmaceutical companies on regulatory bodies can still extend to shaping public perception and policy surrounding alternative medicine, even if it's not a direct suppression of alternatives.

Regarding the Codex Alimentarius, you're correct that it is a voluntary framework and each signatory nation can choose to implement its guidelines to varying degrees. If certain alternative medicine products have become unavailable in a specific country, it is due to that country's implementation of the guidelines, rather than the Codex itself. It is important to recognize the difference between the intentions of the Codex Alimentarius, which aims to protect consumer health and ensure fair trade practices, and the potential misuse of its guidelines by individual countries.

Seems like we are in agreement. I have no particular opinion on alternative vs Western medicine. My interest is in debunking the idea that there is a conspiracy to keep unknown "miracle cures" away from the public by sinister forces specifically for economic reasons. As if these sinister forces could not figure out a way to monetize miracle cures (if they existed).

I agree with you that the notion of a widespread conspiracy to suppress "miracle cures" for economic reasons is often unfounded. In most cases, if there were truly effective alternative treatments, pharmaceutical companies would likely find a way to capitalize on them or incorporate them into their product offerings.

It's essential to approach alternative medicine with a balanced perspective, recognizing that while there may be some effective treatments, not all alternative therapies are necessarily "miracle cures." It's crucial for consumers to research and make informed decisions about their healthcare, including evaluating the efficacy and safety of any alternative treatments they may consider.

[Sushan]

Alternative medicine is synonymous with quackery in the eyes of science. It survives debunking efforts only because it exploits the fears and hopes of folks with fatal and incurable illnesses e.g. cancer. Skeptics in the Western world have been highly critical of alternative medicine because it, at the end of the day, amounts to cheating sick people out of their hard-earned money - adding insult to injury as it were.

However, despite the bad rap it suffers from, alternative "medicine" may open new avenues for real medical research if practitioners of this "field" get lucky and do find a cure for (say) cancer.

Too, alternative medicine, its persistence despite its obvious ineffectiveness, serves as a good/constant reminder to mainstream medicine that it needs to get its act together - more effort has to be put in to find real cures for cancer for example.

While it's true that some alternative medicine practices may lack scientific backing and can be considered questionable, it's important not to paint the entire field with a broad brush. There are alternative therapies that have shown effectiveness in certain cases and have even been incorporated into mainstream medical practices. For example, acupuncture and certain herbal remedies have demonstrated therapeutic benefits in some situations.

It's essential to approach alternative medicine with a critical eye and evaluate each therapy on a case-by-case basis. Relying solely on conventional medicine or alternative medicine can be limiting; a more integrative approach that combines the best of both worlds may offer the most effective solutions for many patients.

In the context of the book, it's possible that the author chose not to include information on alternative medicine because it wasn't the primary focus or because they felt it was outside their area of expertise. However, exploring alternative medicine as a complementary approach alongside conventional medical treatments can be worthwhile for those interested in a more holistic approach to health and wellness.