Fanman wrote: ↑
January 14th, 2018, 9:35 am
I am claiming there is an ultimate cause that manifest in many proximate causes and many forms of diversified causes.
I understand what you're claiming, but I don't think that you're correct. For reasons that I've already stated.
I believe if you were to ask ALL theists why they believe in God, there will be a variety of reasons and there will be a few main reasons contributing to say 80% and the rest 20%.
How do you differentiate between main and non-main reasons, what's the criteria, how deeply they're embedded in the human psyche? How could you know which is more deeply embedded?
First I have spent years researching on this aspect, so I am not pulling these views from the air. But I agree such a statement is useless without the evidences to support it.
I believe one obvious source of evidence is from the main holy texts of the respective religions.
I am a near-expert on Buddhism and I can declare the central theme of Buddhism is to deal with the existential crisis but relying on a non-theistic approach, i.e. dealing and targeting the psychological elements.
I have done actual research in analyzing all the verses in the Quran and the main theme for Muslims to believe in God is relate to the existential angst.
I have not done detailed research into the Bible and Torah but from the much reading of these holy texts, the indication of it for the believers is the existential angst. Note the central theme of gaining eternal life in paradise and avoiding Hell.
There are other reasons like social, political, economics, cultural and others, but these are merely secondary.
How deeply embedded?
I understand the deep embeddedness of the existential crisis from Buddhism and other Eastern Religions and the depth they have to dig. From this I transposed such knowledge to the Abrahamic and other religions because they all deal with the same core issues psychologically.
For every reasons given by theists why they believe in a God, if we dig deep into the psyche, we will get to the ultimate cause, i.e. the existential crisis. It is not what I think is the ultimate and proximate causes, obviously the reason must be justified thoroughly [ I have details but too complex to get into here].
Why do we need to dig deep into the psyche? If someone states their main or most important reason for believing in God, why not accept that as the answer? You are attempting to prove your hypothesis, but by ignoring the claim in favour of what you think the most important reason is, I think that you're in the remit of confirmation bias. What's the point of asking if you think you already know?
From my knowledge of Buddhism [& other Eastern philosophy] and believers I understand the depth and the need to dig deep into the psyche from the psychological and other knowledge.
I believe it is empirically possible [not impossible] for a pink unicorn to exist on Earth yet to be discovered or somewhere in the Universe albeit the probability is very slim.
Based upon what evidence or hypothesis?
The theory is whatever has empirical elements then it is empirically possible.
The elements, pink, horn, animals are all empirical, thus it is empirical possible for an animal with one pointed horn to exists, albeit slim as human has covered most locations.
Just bring the empirical evidence for testing and verification.
I have demonstrated why God is only possible as a thought supported by brain activities but God is an impossibility within an empirical-rational reality.
In my view, you only think you have.
I have provided the argument [logic-based] why God is an impossibility [in a thread]. Prove my argument wrong.
I have given various evidence [in various post and thread] how the idea of God is linked to empirical activities within the human brain.
The only reason why theists believe in God is purely psychological based on the ultimate, proximate and other psychological causes I mentioned above.
You're insisting. Your reasoning is based upon the “proof” of your own hypothesis.
As above I have provided reasonable empirical evidence which is much credible than no evidence at all from theists.
You tell me, other than an empirical-rational reality and the mental world, what other mode of reality can we justify the existence of anything?
I don't think that we can justify the existence of another mode of reality, but that hasn't stopped people from believing in the possibility rightly or wrongly. I don't think that we can justify (qua knowledge) belief in non-empirical realities, but this does not mean that they cannot exist.
Where is that 'another mode of reality' ??
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
If you cannot even hypothesis and justify a mode of reality other than the one stated, it better to remain silent - a non starter.
Without empirical-rational basis, the other possibility is only the mental mode?
As I had argued, the idea of God [Kantian argument] is similar to thinking of a square-circle which is an obvious impossibility.
If there is any "more" reality to experiences of God, it must be possible to be verified with an empirical-rational reality.
You can't verify something non-empirical with empirical methods of verification. Its an issue of belief.
If it is merely belief, then one has to understand its limitation to be real. Until the belief [even empirical] is justified, it cannot be claimed to be real or knowledge.
In any case, the belief in an idea of God is nothing near anything empirical, thus it is an impossibility as proven.
Can you list down 5 main reasons and assign your respective weightings [verifiable to the holy texts] to them?
I think that people may have main or most important reasons why they believe in God, but psychologically (or subconsciously), I don't think that there are main and non-main reasons for religious belief. I find that claiming an ultimate cause is far reaching, as people believe for many different reasons. Trying to isolate and categorise them seems arbitrary. How many things can we claim that existential crisis is the ultimate cause of?
As pointed out above, we can gather the main reasons from the supposedly holy texts of the all-powerful and all-knowing God, who else is better. Since these are from the holy texts, they are more likely to be the main reasons rather than the ones believed by the believer based on their feels, whims and guesses.
On the topic of God which is very sophisticated and full of psychological elements we cannot trust theists [proper] to give an accurate answer as to the main reasons why they believe in a God.
Some may be theists who marry their theist girlfriend and there are other superficial reasons, but they are not the main reason.
The main reasons of why theism are salvation and soteriological reasons [as supported from the holy texts] which are driven by deep psychological impulses.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.