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Proof of God

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Sculptor1 » November 7th, 2019, 6:56 pm

Greta wrote:
November 7th, 2019, 5:42 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
November 7th, 2019, 10:48 am


I am as sure that God is a myth as much as any historical fact such as the Norman Invasion of 1066.
If you want to challenge that reality then that is fine by me.
But we are not in the realm of speculation here.
Even if there is a creator; even if there is an almighty being, does not change the fact that "God" is a myth, a fantastic invention.
You are talking about what people claim to exist. Old claims. Claims by ancient people drawing from a vastly smaller body of knowledge. They spoke in metaphors.

The original claims about God would have come from those who had enjoyed peak experiences. I'm not talking about someone having a a jolly fine metaphysical few minutes, but undergoing experiences that resonated and improved their lives from then on.

Have you had such an experience where, if you didn't know better, you'd say you felt God? (yes, there's an easy double entendre there - please take the high road :)
Is this supposed to be a response to my last post? If it is, I can't see what you want me to say.

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Re: Proof of God

Post by Jklint » November 7th, 2019, 7:23 pm

Proof of god, for or against, is an absolute impossibility which no amount of logic can categorically affirm or refute. It would rationally require a god to prove itself as existing. So far no luck. Measured by the probability of there being one amounts to a next to nothing sum since in our entire history it's only 'proven' to be an invention interacting with its inventors. So far god has only manifested itself as a psychological entity applied to all kinds of purposes; but one in particular, the Will to Power.

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Greta
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Greta » November 7th, 2019, 9:32 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
November 7th, 2019, 6:56 pm
Greta wrote:
November 7th, 2019, 5:42 pm

You are talking about what people claim to exist. Old claims. Claims by ancient people drawing from a vastly smaller body of knowledge. They spoke in metaphors.

The original claims about God would have come from those who had enjoyed peak experiences. I'm not talking about someone having a a jolly fine metaphysical few minutes, but undergoing experiences that resonated and improved their lives from then on.

Have you had such an experience where, if you didn't know better, you'd say you felt God? (yes, there's an easy double entendre there - please take the high road :)
Is this supposed to be a response to my last post? If it is, I can't see what you want me to say.
Yes, I'm replying and I would rather you reply naturally than to try to second guess me.

I asked you a question. It's not a trap. No need to draw up the defences. Peak experiences tend to make one wonder about the broader nature of reality. I can understand why ancients experiencing such things would believe something supernatural was at play. Especially when, afterwards, there were lasting benefits.

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Re: Proof of God

Post by Steve3007 » November 8th, 2019, 5:31 am

Greta wrote:Yes, I'm replying and I would rather you reply naturally than to try to second guess me.
It's often surprisingly difficult to get people to do that because they are so often looking for the subtext in the question, reading all sorts of things into the question that aren't there and trying to work out how the questioner is going to trap or trick them in some way.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Sculptor1 » November 8th, 2019, 7:09 pm

Greta wrote:
November 7th, 2019, 9:32 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
November 7th, 2019, 6:56 pm


Is this supposed to be a response to my last post? If it is, I can't see what you want me to say.
Yes, I'm replying and I would rather you reply naturally than to try to second guess me.

I asked you a question. It's not a trap. No need to draw up the defences. Peak experiences tend to make one wonder about the broader nature of reality. I can understand why ancients experiencing such things would believe something supernatural was at play. Especially when, afterwards, there were lasting benefits.
"Have you had such an experience where, if you didn't know better, you'd say you felt God? (yes, there's an easy double entendre there - please take the high road :)"

Yes, when I was a born again christian between the ages of 13-14.
I was simply deluded and drawn to the succor of religion due to an extremely problematic, violent and stressful.

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Greta
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Greta » November 8th, 2019, 11:54 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
November 8th, 2019, 7:09 pm
Greta wrote:
November 7th, 2019, 9:32 pm

Yes, I'm replying and I would rather you reply naturally than to try to second guess me.

I asked you a question. It's not a trap. No need to draw up the defences. Peak experiences tend to make one wonder about the broader nature of reality. I can understand why ancients experiencing such things would believe something supernatural was at play. Especially when, afterwards, there were lasting benefits.
"Have you had such an experience where, if you didn't know better, you'd say you felt God? (yes, there's an easy double entendre there - please take the high road :)"

Yes, when I was a born again christian between the ages of 13-14.
I was simply deluded and drawn to the succor of religion due to an extremely problematic, violent and stressful.
What was the experience like?

My experiences were completely spontaneous. No belief was needed. They stemmed from happiness rather than trauma.

Jklint
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Jklint » November 9th, 2019, 5:56 pm

What would any peak experience have to do with god unless, in some manner, it refers to god directly? Why would any such felt metaphysical extension of oneself require a god at the end of it? We still think of such experiences as moving toward god. Could it be that we simply have no other expression to describe such mental dilations except to have it denoted by the most magisterial three letter word in our vocabulary?

What these experiences mostly describe are nothing more than emotions inflated beyond its normal restraints the effects of which may be long-lasting as if having etched a physical groove in the brain to remember it by.

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Greta
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Greta » November 9th, 2019, 8:43 pm

Jklint wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 5:56 pm
What would any peak experience have to do with god unless, in some manner, it refers to god directly? Why would any such felt metaphysical extension of oneself require a god at the end of it? We still think of such experiences as moving toward god. Could it be that we simply have no other expression to describe such mental dilations except to have it denoted by the most magisterial three letter word in our vocabulary?

What these experiences mostly describe are nothing more than emotions inflated beyond its normal restraints the effects of which may be long-lasting as if having etched a physical groove in the brain to remember it by.
For me, it was a matter of feeling the kinds of things that subsequent Googling told me were a lot like the kinds of personal claims attributed to God. However, I have no way of being sure of any aspect of the experience but a dopamine spike, and a subsequent increase in mental and philosophical clarity. Of course it's not proof of anything but the potentials of brains and minds.

I hate to seem exclusivist about this because I feel zero pride in all of this. It was all @rse. My only achievement was managing to get out of my own way for a little while. However, if you have such an experience you will know better what I mean. People say their peak experiences felt more real than their usual mentalities, and I had the same impression, as though I was touching undercurrents of what makes things the way they are. Explaining such things will tend towards gobbledygook so I'll not extrapolate too much.

No doubt some ancient people had peak experiences, and were suddenly overwhelmed by an extraordinary and strange bliss and a sense of unconditional love, as I enjoyed twice. People have asked me who or what was emanating this unconditional love and sense of complete acceptance, but I obviously don't know. It was a general sense, as the cliché goes, like the "universe". It sounds silly but all one can do is report. So it's clear to me that if an ancient person experienced what I did, then they would almost certainly assume something supernatural.

From there, it depends on how picky a culture is about their gods. For pagans, just about anything strong was dubbed a minor god. Trees, crocodiles, etc. So they would perhaps see such an experience as communion with the land in general, which would be their equivalent to God. As you noted above, interpreting peak experiences depends on one's lens.

Those who have never heard of a monotheistic deity obviously won't attribute anything to it. As things stand, old muggins here was raised in a pretty standard white, middle-class Anglo-Christian society (that I fitted into like a cat in a dog pound) and, despite rejecting the Bible's stories as real as a child, I still stuck with my culture's particular distorting lens.

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Re: Proof of God

Post by Sculptor1 » November 10th, 2019, 7:23 am

Greta wrote:
November 8th, 2019, 11:54 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
November 8th, 2019, 7:09 pm

"Have you had such an experience where, if you didn't know better, you'd say you felt God? (yes, there's an easy double entendre there - please take the high road :)"

Yes, when I was a born again christian between the ages of 13-14.
I was simply deluded and drawn to the succor of religion due to an extremely problematic, violent and stressful.
What was the experience like?

My experiences were completely spontaneous. No belief was needed. They stemmed from happiness rather than trauma.
I do not see happiness as "divine".
As for my experience; I was so sure of god that I could not wait to die.

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Greta
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Greta » November 10th, 2019, 4:17 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
November 10th, 2019, 7:23 am
Greta wrote:
November 8th, 2019, 11:54 pm

What was the experience like?

My experiences were completely spontaneous. No belief was needed. They stemmed from happiness rather than trauma.
I do not see happiness as "divine".
As for my experience; I was so sure of god that I could not wait to die.
Then again, what do you see as divine?

Quite a few people report NDEs where they didn't want to return to life, as if their period in "limbo" was preferable to life.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Sculptor1 » November 10th, 2019, 5:54 pm

Greta wrote:
November 10th, 2019, 4:17 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
November 10th, 2019, 7:23 am

I do not see happiness as "divine".
As for my experience; I was so sure of god that I could not wait to die.
Then again, what do you see as divine?

Quite a few people report NDEs where they didn't want to return to life, as if their period in "limbo" was preferable to life.
Sometimes dreams can be like that. When I was in cancer treatment, my dreams were much better than my waking moments. I was glad of the escape, when my dreams could so easily have been nightmares they gave me a proper rest from the slog of radiation, chemo, starving, and drugs.

What is "divine"?: it's a word without meaning for me.

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Greta
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Greta » November 10th, 2019, 7:34 pm

Great that you managed to get over the cancer. It's tortuous. Yes, no wonder dying people don't want to go back - they are temporarily free from a harsh reality.

I know what you mean about "divine". I tend to associate the word with cheesecake or hot chips.

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Re: Proof of God

Post by NickGaspar » November 11th, 2019, 5:10 am

Jaded Sage wrote:
August 27th, 2015, 10:45 am
1 John 4:8 defines God as love, so God is love.

If love exists, then God exists. Love exists, therefore God exists.

Love ≡ God Love ∴ God


Is the form correct? It's been a long time since I have done logical proofs.
Greek Mythology promotes the idea that: Dias (Zeus) is the Sky and Thunder God.
If the Sky and Thunders exist then Dias(Zeus) Exists. The sky and thunders exist therefore Dias(Zeus)exists.
Sky/Thunders=Sky/Thunder god.

Can you see the problem with logical proofs?

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Re: Proof of God

Post by Jklint » November 11th, 2019, 6:10 am

Greta wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 8:43 pm
I hate to seem exclusivist about this because I feel zero pride in all of this. It was all @rse. My only achievement was managing to get out of my own way for a little while. However, if you have such an experience you will know better what I mean. People say their peak experiences felt more real than their usual mentalities, and I had the same impression, as though I was touching undercurrents of what makes things the way they are. Explaining such things will tend towards gobbledygook so I'll not extrapolate too much.
I think it all devolves to brain physiology and how it metabolizes input from the senses, or more directly and purposely, from the intake of hallucinogens. The 'peak' in peak experience seems to occur when time ceases to flow in its customary sense causing in its wake no dilution, separation or distance between subject and object. It decentralizes the tyranny of ego from forcing every experience into an "I" setting. Time means continuity but when for some reason the mind compresses a single moment into complete stillness the usual distinction between perceiver and perceived fades utterly. The tangibility of separation yields to immanence; the sense of one's existence no-longer that of a singular island localized to some part of the planet. Perhaps these rare unforgettable moments and one's total surrender to them are caused by a momentary dissonance in the brain akin to a mild case of epilepsy before reassembling itself to the usual routines of existence.

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Re: Proof of God

Post by Repoman05 » November 11th, 2019, 6:22 am

Love is not well defined. When discussing a multi faceted definition such as "love" you have to define which aspect and from what perspective you're talking about. Selfishness is bent and twisted in many ways and called many things. "love" is a meaningless word because it's a word for many things including a word to hide what it really is, selfishness for another person that comes from the sacrifices you made to ensure their well being. So it's really just selfishness for your efforts. Their well being is just a measurement by which you gauge the efficacy of your efforts. It's quite ugly once you understand it better.

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