Atheism as Purification

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 3866
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Sculptor1 »

Fanman wrote: May 8th, 2021, 4:50 am Tegularius,
In fact many accept the supernatural. Religion and belief depends on it. But testimonies or scriptures offering itself as truth do not have the credibility as actual truth DNA in a manner of speaking. I think we agree that an untruth need not be a lie if it serves a beneficial purpose since nature itself has never made reference to what we acknowledge as true or untrue.
I accept some testimonies with a dose of salt.
So you cherry pick the ones you like and reject the ones you don't like or are too hard to aspire to
I do not believe that what they claim happened is the absolute truth (if there is such a thing), but I believe there is a half-truth to it or a truth to it if you catch my drift – like something in nature that is to our current understanding inexplicable. I agree - Nature does not acknowledge this - It is something our minds impose on it. Nature is. We are trying to make sense of it. And I think that is the absolute of what we can achieve in our desire to establish reality - To have a coherent, consistent understanding. Science is the best method if we're talking about what is empirical, but if you believe that all that can exist is empirical - then the supernatural will be non-existent in your view. I think there is room for both - rightly or wrongly.
So you are happy with the book of nature, not so happy with the so called book of god.
Why reference the Bible at all? Why not see it for what it is?
Fanman
Posts: 3071
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Fanman »

Sculptor1,
So you cherry pick the ones you like and reject the ones you don't like or are too hard to aspire to
No. I accept the testimonies if I perceive them to have any truth value.

I’m not an atheist, in the sense that I don’t have to be able to prove or demonstrate everything that crosses my mind. In my view, if I perceive a reasonable enough foundation for thinking something that is belief-like. I don’t have a problem with it.
So you are happy with the book of nature, not so happy with the so called book of god.
Why reference the Bible at all? Why not see it for what it is?
The Bible is a book as far as I am concerned. I believe that some of the things it claims are true, but much of it is not. I have that freedom of conscience.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder, atheists compute. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Nick_A
Posts: 2673
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Nick_A »

Fanman wrote: May 8th, 2021, 4:50 am Tegularius,
In fact many accept the supernatural. Religion and belief depends on it. But testimonies or scriptures offering itself as truth do not have the credibility as actual truth DNA in a manner of speaking. I think we agree that an untruth need not be a lie if it serves a beneficial purpose since nature itself has never made reference to what we acknowledge as true or untrue.
I accept some testimonies with a dose of salt. I do not believe that what they claim happened is the absolute truth (if there is such a thing), but I believe there is a half-truth to it or a truth to it if you catch my drift – like something in nature that is to our current understanding inexplicable. I agree - Nature does not acknowledge this - It is something our minds impose on it. Nature is. We are trying to make sense of it. And I think that is the absolute of what we can achieve in our desire to establish reality - To have a coherent, consistent understanding. Science is the best method if we're talking about what is empirical, but if you believe that all that can exist is empirical - then the supernatural will be non-existent in your view. I think there is room for both - rightly or wrongly.
Let me ask you a question Fanman. The law of non-contradiction or the Excluded middle is an accepted fact in science. A and not A cannot simultaneously exist. But suppose someone comes along and says that the universe isn't a dualistic reality but rather a triune reality. The law of the Excluded middle or duality only apples to certain specific details but the Law of the Included Middle describes the universe. What would be the emotional opinion of experts? Would it be similar to the reaction given by the experts when it was proposed that the earth isn't flat but round? As much as the idea was ridiculed, someone had to verify it and gradually agree that the earth is round

Could it be the same with the virgin birth? As absurd as it is for modern beliefs, the logic of it may be agreed upon in the future, Positive atheists deny the possibility while negative atheists are more open to it and can ponder the logic behind it when exposed to it. This is the quality of atheism which makes it a purification for religion.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Fanman
Posts: 3071
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Fanman »

Nick_A,
Could it be the same with the virgin birth? As absurd as it is for modern beliefs, the logic of it may be agreed upon in the future, Positive atheists deny the possibility while negative atheists are more open to it and can ponder the logic behind it when exposed to it. This is the quality of atheism which makes it a purification for religion.
I don’t really believe that virgin birth is possible, but Jesus’ purported capabilities show that he was not an ordinary person. His life acts as a justification for the possibility that his divine origins are true. Because no one who could do what he did can come from the loins of a man.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder, atheists compute. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Nick_A
Posts: 2673
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Nick_A »

Fanman wrote: May 8th, 2021, 10:30 am Nick_A,
Could it be the same with the virgin birth? As absurd as it is for modern beliefs, the logic of it may be agreed upon in the future, Positive atheists deny the possibility while negative atheists are more open to it and can ponder the logic behind it when exposed to it. This is the quality of atheism which makes it a purification for religion.
I don’t really believe that virgin birth is possible, but Jesus’ purported capabilities show that he was not an ordinary person. His life acts as a justification for the possibility that his divine origins are true. Because no one who could do what he did can come from the loins of a man.
You don't believe in the virgin birth which is a good thing. It opposes our normal dualistic thinking. Yet you don't emotionally deny it which is also a good thing. It raises a question that when pondering serves to open the mind.

Blind denial is as bad as blind belief. The question for the philosophic and religious mind, which is a lover of wisdom, requires becoming able to see the light. It begins for a person by experiencing that we live in the darkness of Plato's cave. Is it possible to leave this prison?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Fanman
Posts: 3071
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Fanman »

Nick_A,

Thank you for saying that. That is a good, insightful post. I think the way to do so (leave the prison) is to have a good general understanding of reality. To accept our limitations, but be willing to learn and to have an open mind. We must be able to look past ourselves. Fundamentally, we have to be reasonable. The rest will take of itself. I don’t know about light. Because it is not the same thing for everyone - It seems to show the way out of the cave, but what we perceive may not be light in an absolute sense - therefore not leading to the true exit. We need to consider other people’s paradigms of thinking. I mean, there's no point in climbing out of the cave alone.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder, atheists compute. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 3866
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Sculptor1 »

Fanman wrote: May 8th, 2021, 6:59 am Sculptor1,
So you cherry pick the ones you like and reject the ones you don't like or are too hard to aspire to
No. I accept the testimonies if I perceive them to have any truth value.
That is cherry picking via your own biased sense of morality. Of necessity rejecting the stuff that is too hard for you.

I’m not an atheist, in the sense that I don’t have to be able to prove or demonstrate everything that crosses my mind. In my view, if I perceive a reasonable enough foundation for thinking something that is belief-like. I don’t have a problem with it.
An atheist has nothing to prove. That burder is with the believer.
So you are happy with the book of nature, not so happy with the so called book of god.
Why reference the Bible at all? Why not see it for what it is?
The Bible is a book as far as I am concerned. I believe that some of the things it claims are true, but much of it is not. I have that freedom of conscience.
I told you, you were cherry picking
Tegularius
Posts: 214
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Tegularius »

Fanman wrote: May 8th, 2021, 1:40 am Tegularius,

There’s nothing you say that I wish to contest, as before, I can’t fault your reasoning.
Not really. It must be validated if not by overt proof then by a probability which makes it all but insurmountable at which point it's no-longer supernatural. It's usually the latter which gets validated by testimony which is no better than hearsay.
Some people accept testimonies as the truth. I understand that you believe this to be incorrect because it's hearsay, but that is the state of play. Some people are willing to accept the possibility that the supernatural exists.
What the empirical has already discovered and still will discover is supernatural enough for me. If such a separate reality exists apart from nature I can't imagine what caused it or why. For me the supernatural denotes mysteries which haven't yet yielded to any kind of investigation and continue to exist as unresolved. Once and for a very long time there was only that with very little actually known; so much appeared supernatural then. Words are also the medium upon which every untruth is inscribed and humans have written a hell of a lot of words.

What others think, feel or imagine is of no concern to me; it's simply a matter of debate.
Fanman
Posts: 3071
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Fanman »

Sculptor1,
That is cherry picking via your own biased sense of morality. Of necessity rejecting the stuff that is too hard for you.
That line of reasoning is too broad, there’s more complexity to it than that. Assessing, analysing, discernment etc.
Fundamentally you have a point, but it strikes me as reductionist.
An atheist has nothing to prove. That burder is with the believer.
Yes, it is, but it is hard to justify religious beliefs or any view outside the scope of empirical science to an atheist.
I told you, you were cherry picking.
How would you define "cherry-picking"?
Theists believe, agnostics ponder, atheists compute. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Fanman
Posts: 3071
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Fanman »

Tegularius,
What the empirical has already discovered and still will discover is supernatural enough for me.
I can relate to that.
If such a separate reality exists apart from nature I can't imagine what caused it or why.
Likewise.
For me the supernatural denotes mysteries which haven't yet yielded to any kind of investigation and continue to exist as unresolved.
Right again. The fact that there are so many different contexts for it, none of which proved beyond testimony, makes this the most rational approach.
Once and for a very long time there was only that with very little actually known; so much appeared supernatural then.
Ditto.
Words are also the medium upon which every untruth is inscribed and humans have written a hell of a lot of words.
Correct.
What others think, feel or imagine is of no concern to me; it's simply a matter of debate.
That’s up to you, but it seems a bit, unaccommodating.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder, atheists compute. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Tegularius
Posts: 214
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Tegularius »

Fanman wrote: May 8th, 2021, 10:30 am I don’t really believe that virgin birth is possible, but Jesus’ purported capabilities show that he was not an ordinary person. His life acts as a justification for the possibility that his divine origins are true. Because no one who could do what he did can come from the loins of a man.
I'm curious because it appears somewhat contradictory. If you think Jesus did all the things reported in the bible why would the virgin birth be doubted when it's completely inline that such as he could not come from the loins of man?

...or maybe I misunderstood something.
Fanman
Posts: 3071
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Fanman »

Tegularius,

I was speaking hypothetically. By the Bible, if he did those things, then virgin birth is possible. But I don’t believe it is possible - That would be difficult to conceptualise. Only faith can accommodate that belief.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder, atheists compute. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Tegularius
Posts: 214
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Tegularius »

Fanman wrote: May 9th, 2021, 1:05 am Tegularius,

I was speaking hypothetically. By the Bible, if he did those things, then virgin birth is possible. But I don’t believe it is possible - That would be difficult to conceptualise. Only faith can accommodate that belief.
Thanks for the reply! This makes it clearer. Faith is indeed required and a lot of it to believe what is outside the range of normal belief which so often resembles hope more than miracles.
Fanman
Posts: 3071
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Fanman »

Tegularius,

Your welcome.
This makes it clearer. Faith is indeed required and a lot of it to believe what is outside the range of normal belief which so often resembles hope more than miracles.
That is very true from the outside looking in. But if you ever perused a religious forum. You would see a neverending tale of "Jesus did this for me!" Not that they are right. But I mean, religious people perceive miracles everywhere. And when positive things don't happen for them, they believe it is because their faith is not strong enough. That is just too archaic.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder, atheists compute. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Nick_A
Posts: 2673
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Atheism as Purification

Post by Nick_A »

Fanman wrote: May 9th, 2021, 1:56 am Tegularius,

Your welcome.
This makes it clearer. Faith is indeed required and a lot of it to believe what is outside the range of normal belief which so often resembles hope more than miracles.
That is very true from the outside looking in. But if you ever perused a religious forum. You would see a neverending tale of "Jesus did this for me!" Not that they are right. But I mean, religious people perceive miracles everywhere. And when positive things don't happen for them, they believe it is because their faith is not strong enough. That is just too archaic.
But that is the idea of atheism being a purification. A lot of what is called religion is fantasy. Yet those ho have experienced noesis know it is very real. The questions atheism brings makes it easier to separate the wheat from the tares and open to the triune reality rather than remaining obsessed with dualism which governs the world.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021