I should say 'living with any individual sovereignty, dignity, or future. There are plenty of places in recent history where that's failed.
Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
- Papus79
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
- Papus79
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
And sometimes a person's environment is just hell-bent on treating them one way or another. The challenge then is not be completely defined in one's reaction to that.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 20th, 2021, 11:20 amDamn! Now I feel small and humbled for not seeing that. And I wish I'd thought of writing it first.chewybrian wrote: ↑June 20th, 2021, 10:54 am It is easier on you if you don't feel the need to judge others and worry about getting your fair share (or an unfair advantage) at all times. It's quite calming to be able to assume the best intentions in others (when it's not obvious that they are trying to stick it to you). If you distrust others, they will sense this and distrust you. Your impression that the world is hostile actually makes the world more hostile! That simple act of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt frees up a lot of mental energy and makes the world seem better. Doing the right thing when nobody is looking allows you to sleep the sleep of the just. It's worth the effort, but hard to see until you embrace it and try it for real.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
Exactly.polargirl wrote: ↑June 20th, 2021, 2:37 pmPattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 20th, 2021, 10:41 amYes, that's about it. If we ask "what is good?", we will soon need to ask "...good for who/what?" And that's the crux of the issue. What's good for me is bad for you, or for insects, or Jeff Bezos, or the environment, or.... Good is relative to the thing it is good for; evil is the same.
As for which is stronger? Given the actual nature and meaning of good and evil, I honestly don't see that it matters. The question (and its answer) are not significant or relevant, I don't think.
Good is indeed relative to the specific person. One's good is another's evil.
If that is to be accepted, then all future philosophical and religious discussion on good vs evil is moot.
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
Russell's position implies that violence is bad, which is an ethical claim. Philosopher, heal thyself.arjand wrote: ↑June 20th, 2021, 12:44 pm Bertrand Russell was opposed ethical claims because, in his view, ethics results in violence. Ethics is essentially a fixative claim to good and bad that legitimizes violence against what is claimed to be "bad" (i.e. 'evil').
According to Bertrand Russell ethical philosophy offers little more than self-serving argument to justify violence. He developed a disgust of all ethical claims.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
Only in fiction (novels and movies). In real life, there is no 'eventually', because real life has no endings, happy or otherwise: it just goes on.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
The reverse is true. Morality is the recognition of evil.
A myth put about by third rate philosophers who have not understood the nature of pain and pleasure.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
Strength may be measured not only by direct competition such as good v evil, but by the value of the results produced by such strength, I.e. by what its power can achieve.
Good, whatever it may be, has the power to provide pleasure, to fulfill the needs for survival and to ensure the propagation of the species, among other benefits.
Evil, although it can produce the same results as good, is self-destructive and involves some kind of pain. More power isn’t necessarily better power. For its negative results, the power of evil is less valuable than that of good.
The more value, the more positive strength. For this reason I agree with those who have said that good is stronger than evil.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
Indeed, most people refer to them as such. As they do with Paradise and Hell. As if they really exist.
So, I believe the question/subject is void of any meaning if these two concepts are not defined. Because I don't see someone questioning their meaning. And using them with various and different meanings doesn't lead to a fruitful and sensible discussion.
So, my own view on Good and Evil --although I don't like to use these terms/concepts-- is that they are manifestations of the being. They have to do with ethics and sanity. The more ethical and sane an individual is, the more good he does to himself and the others, and vice versa.
So, talking about which of them, good or evil, is stronger makes no sense.
Human beings are basically good. They are endowed with the power of logic and they want to survive and live as better as possible, themselves and their fellow human beings. And they can achieve that by being ethical, i.e. behaving for the greater good. However, incidents in life make then deviate from logic and do things that harm themselves or others. Thus they move from "good" to "evil". And, if their mind is not really damaged, they can always --with or without appropriate guidance-- get back to rationality, sanity and ethical behavior, that is, becoming "good" again.
So, how "good" or "evil" is a human being depends on his ethics level, which is supported and maintained by rationality (reason, logic) and personal integrity.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
Morality is both subjective and objective, depending on the point from which we are viewing and considering it. That is, everyone has his own reality of what is moral and what is not, as well the extent to which they are so, but there is also, and most importantly, an objective view, based on the fact that acts and behavior that help and enhance survival for oneself and the others are considered ethical (moral) and the opposite. Criminals have their own reality and view on morality, but they are repulsed by the community. There are extreme cases, where persons cannot see the difference between right and wrong, as is commonly seen by the community at large and are thus considered insane, psychotic or suffering from any other mental illness. If morality were only subjective, most probably we wouldn't be here exchanging views ... Man would have never come out of the jungle or the caves. The human race would have maybe be extinct!
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
It may be subjective for just yourself or even between you and me. But can you say the same thing for your family? What is good for you may not be good for your family? And what about the company where you work? What is good for you may not be good for your company? And what about your country? What is good for you may not be good for your country?polargirl wrote: ↑June 20th, 2021, 2:37 pmPattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 20th, 2021, 10:41 amYes, that's about it. If we ask "what is good?", we will soon need to ask "...good for who/what?" And that's the crux of the issue. What's good for me is bad for you, or for insects, or Jeff Bezos, or the environment, or.... Good is relative to the thing it is good for; evil is the same.
As for which is stronger? Given the actual nature and meaning of good and evil, I honestly don't see that it matters. The question (and its answer) are not significant or relevant, I don't think.
Good is indeed relative to the specific person. One's good is another's evil.
There is a general rule that covers all that: an action or behavior is more ethical (moral) as it does most good to the majority. And this is objective. It refers to survival and it is based on rationality.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
I get the subjective part.Alkis wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2021, 8:23 amMorality is both subjective and objective, depending on the point from which we are viewing and considering it. That is, everyone has his own reality of what is moral and what is not, as well the extent to which they are so, but there is also, and most importantly, an objective view, based on the fact that acts and behavior that help and enhance survival for oneself and the others are considered ethical (moral) and the opposite. Criminals have their own reality and view on morality, but they are repulsed by the community. There are extreme cases, where persons cannot see the difference between right and wrong, as is commonly seen by the community at large and are thus considered insane, psychotic or suffering from any other mental illness. If morality were only subjective, most probably we wouldn't be here exchanging views ... Man would have never come out of the jungle or the caves. The human race would have maybe be extinct!
For the objective part, it means that if we do something that will help us AND others survive then it is good. If we do something that makes others and us die then it is bad. Do I have it right? Are there any well-known exceptions or special considerations for this?
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
It is an interesting notion. How can one claim that ethical notions are bad when that notion itself is an ethical notion?
The concept judgement that results in an ethical notion is at question and one would need to wonder: can one 'not judge' when examining anything?
The answer is yes because reason does not involve judgement.
Russell mentioned the following:
My lecture was partly inspired by disgust at the universal outburst of righteousness in all nations since the war began. It seems the essence of virtue is persecution, and it has given me a disgust of all ethical notions, which evidently are chiefly useful as an excuse for murder’ The real title of the paper, he explained, was ‘Philosophers and Pigs’.
https://www.academia.edu/5595284/Notes_ ... eta_Ethics
The presumed 'bad people' that commit atrocities towards others based on ethical notions are indicated as pigs.
What does the notion pig imply in contrast with a philosopher?
When philosophy is to be considered a method to derive at reason (wisdom and truth), the term pig in contrast would describe unreason and barbarism.
According to Spinoza, an attempt to escape evil with good results in evil. According to Spinoza, good only follows by reason.
https://ethics.spinozism.org/text.phpSpinoza wrote:He who is led by fear, and does good in order to escape evil, is not led by reason.
...
Corollary.--Under desire which springs from reason, we seek good directly, and shun evil indirectly.
When one makes an ethical claim, one essentially attempts to 'cling on' for hope and as Spinoza has indicated, there can be no hope without fear and to guide one by fear results in evil. This may explain why ethical notions deviate from reason.
It can be an argument that the human should choose wisely (i.e. practice reason) when the human has the capacity to do so. As such, it can be demanded on behalf of human dignity. A lack of reason can become unjust when the potential for it (in an individual) can be made evident.
As Russell indicated, reason (as in wisdom and truth) are essentially 'the same in England, Germany and France'.
https://aeon.co/essays/philosophy-at-wa ... l-analysisBertrand Russell wrote:‘The truth, whatever it may be, is the same in England, France, and Germany … it is in its essence neutral’
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
Yes, I've heard this said before, but I've yet to be convinced.
Morals are our idea of correct behaviour, yes? We choose to say that X is good behaviour and Y is not, and morals are the consensus view of the community as regards such things, yes? I don't mean that such things are decided at random, only that they are decided; chosen, not forced upon us by Nature or the Universe.
Survival, on the other hand, isn't really a choice, it is a necessity. We do what we must, not what we choose, to survive. Survival overrides such trivia as morals, doesn't it? If there is no other food available, we eat each other, even though we would normally consider cannibalism to be morally wrong. Survival trumps morals every time. So, if this is so, survival is no foundation for an objective morality, is it?
By this reasoning, I conclude that there is no objective aspect to morals, none at all.
I'm not attacking you, or your opinions, when I ask this, it's a genuine question: can you explain why I am wrong?
"Who cares, wins"
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?
Do you know where this 'rule' came from, or when it first appeared? I have heard this before as an opinion, and I wonder when it became a 'rule'? Is there evidence or justification for it, or is it just one of those 'rules' that just appears out of thin air?
I don't seek to quarrel with your 'rule' directly. It is the sudden and unjustified leap that connects it to ethics and morality that concerns me. Or are we saying that we define the word "ethical" by saying that "it is that action or behaviour that does most good to the majority"?
"Who cares, wins"
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