Atheism and Free Will

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Leontiskos
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Leontiskos »

Steve3007 wrote: August 4th, 2021, 12:18 pm
Leontiskos wrote: August 4th, 2021, 12:00 pmYou seem to be saying that free will is deterministic but we are not currently able to predict it (or something like that). So it is deterministic in principle but not in practice.
No, not quite. My view is that it is possible for a system to be deterministic while also being fundamentally unpredictable, not merely currently unpredictable. I think that this is where what is possible in practice and what is possible in principle become the same thing.

It's this view that leads me to the view that there is no contradiction between causality and free will. I don't buy what appears to me to be a dualistic distinction between things to which the principle of causality can be meaningfully applied and things to which it can't be applied. I think causality, if it is applicable at all, applies to brains in the same way that it applies to anything else, but I don't see that as contradicting the notion that brains have free will.
Thanks for the clarification. I want to say that this sort of thing doesn't hold water. You could hold that determinism is inaccessible to humans, such that we would never be able to infallibly predict the future even if determinism is true, but this isn't a justification for saying there is no contradiction between causality and free will. This does relate to the ontological/epistemic distinction that has been raised. Just because humans cannot leverage the truth of determinism with respect to their knowledge does not mean that it doesn't contradict free will. Just because prediction is possible neither in principle nor in practice does not mean that free will and determinism are compatible. It seems that you are a compatibilist, but my point is that this isn't a valid argument for compatibilism. Compatibilism and incompatibilism are concerned with the ontological nature of free will and determinism, not with the human ability or inability to predict the future. Even if we agree that humans cannot infallibly predict the future, even in principle, it remains possible that free will and determinism are incompatible. I hope that makes sense.

Granted, there is a common argument against determinism that focuses on epistemology, and I think you successfully avoid that argument, but the ground-level issues persist.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Leontiskos wrote: August 4th, 2021, 12:00 pm I question whether you are a mechanist because you seem to think that a mechanical explanation for free will is inadequate (because you believe that free will is not causally determined). Ergo: If free will is mechanical, then it is causally determined; free will is not causally determined; therefore free will is not mechanical.
Again, on my view, there's no good reason to believe in causal determinism in general. That includes when we're simply talking about automobiles and grandfather clocks. It's not that free will is something "other than 'mechanical.'" It's that "mechanical" stuff is something other than causally deterministic (in the sense that there's always just one possible consequent state given any immediately prior antecedent state).
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Leontiskos wrote:You could hold that determinism is inaccessible to humans, such that we would never be able to infallibly predict the future even if determinism is true...
I guess you could hold that, but that's not what I hold. I'm not talking about what is or is not accessible to humans.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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ManInTheMoon wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 11:40 pm Do you say "free" has no meaning because you don't believe our wills are truly free, or do you think there's some problem with the concept of freedom itself?
The ‘free will’ or not dilemma is whether the will’s product has to be what it is, as fixed and determined by a result from an estimation based on an analysis of scenarios of consequences based on and limited to its current repertoire, or if, well, … I don’t what alternative? Random instead? A mini first cause instead? Consciousness instead?

The ‘free’ part of ‘free will’ is thus not the trivial natural fact that the healthy will is free to operate when there’s no coercion, although the compatibilists think this is the whole deal; case closed.

‘Random’ would produce chaos.

‘Consciousness’ doesn’t will anything. While the brain’s subconscious analysis is quick, this process still takes a bit of time to figure a result, and only right after it finishes can the product get into conscious and get unified, integrated, and stitched to whatever was ongoing, and then presented, which also takes some time.

A mini first cause without access to the brain’s information wouldn’t know anything.

It makes sense that one’s two trillion or so neural connections really get used to narrow down the options and produce an output consistent with what one has become.

The brain’s will is dynamic and so its information continually increases from learning to a better fixed will of another moment, and so it is thus that it might then produce a different output than it did for the same situation in the past.

We can never be free of the fixed will and who would even want to be? The will’s consistency aids survival, in general, and otherwise ever allows us to continue as we’ve become.

Does one want ‘free will’ because on the surface it just seems to be a good thing to have? Is it that being a kind of even a smart robot still seems repulsive?

There seems to be no alternative. Does that bring peace?

All in all, the Universe does us, not the other way around. We become who we are from our genetics and the influences from our surroundings and learning, for which we are never responsible. Both fame and shame cannot be claimed as owned and so they must fall by the wayside.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Terrapin Station wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:09 pm
Leontiskos wrote: August 4th, 2021, 12:00 pm I question whether you are a mechanist because you seem to think that a mechanical explanation for free will is inadequate (because you believe that free will is not causally determined). Ergo: If free will is mechanical, then it is causally determined; free will is not causally determined; therefore free will is not mechanical.
Again, on my view, there's no good reason to believe in causal determinism in general. That includes when we're simply talking about automobiles and grandfather clocks. It's not that free will is something "other than 'mechanical.'" It's that "mechanical" stuff is something other than causally deterministic (in the sense that there's always just one possible consequent state given any immediately prior antecedent state).
Right, I understand that. I didn't mean to claim that the syllogism is limited to free will, but you certainly do apply it to free will (among other things). Obviously your view isn't easy to capture in classic categorizations, but you seem to be rejecting a purely mechanical universe.

----------
Steve3007 wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:18 pm
Leontiskos wrote:You could hold that determinism is inaccessible to humans, such that we would never be able to infallibly predict the future even if determinism is true...
I guess you could hold that, but that's not what I hold. I'm not talking about what is or is not accessible to humans.
Then I'm not really sure what you are talking about, because you keep talking about predictability, and there can be no predictability without minds. Indeed, your inference from predictability to compatibilism isn't altogether different from Britannica's inference from knowledge to determinism (in that both are making use of a concept that requires minds in order to say something about determinism).
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Leontiskos wrote: August 4th, 2021, 5:41 pm Right, I understand that. I didn't mean to claim that the syllogism is limited to free will, but you certainly do apply it to free will (among other things). Obviously your view isn't easy to capture in classic categorizations, but you seem to be rejecting a purely mechanical universe.
I suppose, but that would only be the case if one were to say that "mechanics" are necessarily deterministic, basically so that's part of what one means by "mechanics." But I'd instead say that mechanics aren't deterministic.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Wish I could edit instead of having to write another post. The reason that I'd instead say that mechanics aren't deterministic is this:

It's not that I'm saying there are mechanics (that are deterministic), but what I'm positing is something outside of that. And I don't want to say "we can no longer use the term 'mechanics,' because there is nothing deterministic, so 'mechanics' picks no phenomena in the world out." Hence, instead I'd say that mechanics aren't deterministic.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Steve3007 wrote: August 4th, 2021, 12:18 pm My view is that it is possible for a system to be deterministic while also being fundamentally unpredictable, not merely currently unpredictable.
Things like chaos and complexity, as well as quantum uncertainty and Godellian incompleteness, give the lie to this, it seems. At least in this specifically-physical sense, our universe is not, and cannot be, deterministic. Is that not so?

How this affects "atheism and free will", I'm not sure...
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Terrapin Station wrote: August 5th, 2021, 6:24 am
Leontiskos wrote: August 4th, 2021, 5:41 pm Right, I understand that. I didn't mean to claim that the syllogism is limited to free will, but you certainly do apply it to free will (among other things). Obviously your view isn't easy to capture in classic categorizations, but you seem to be rejecting a purely mechanical universe.
I suppose, but that would only be the case if one were to say that "mechanics" are necessarily deterministic, basically so that's part of what one means by "mechanics." But I'd instead say that mechanics aren't deterministic.
Terrapin Station wrote: August 5th, 2021, 6:27 am Wish I could edit instead of having to write another post. The reason that I'd instead say that mechanics aren't deterministic is this:

It's not that I'm saying there are (sic) mechanics (that are deterministic), but what I'm positing is something outside of that. And I don't want to say "we can no longer use the term 'mechanics,' because there is nothing deterministic, so 'mechanics' picks no phenomena in the world out." Hence, instead I'd say that mechanics aren't deterministic.
Sure, but in the common tongue "mechanical" implies "deterministic." Your understanding of matter and mechanics is substantially different from the common view, and for that reason it is dubious whether you should be considered a "materialist" or a "mechanist." If you spoke of yourself that way in a philosophical context a great deal of qualification would be needed, such as is happening right now.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Leontiskos wrote: August 5th, 2021, 11:39 am Sure, but in the common tongue "mechanical" implies "deterministic."
I don't actually agree with that, but it's something we'd have to hash out by doing a pretty extensive survey.
Your understanding of matter and mechanics is substantially different from the common view, and for that reason it is dubious whether you should be considered a "materialist" or a "mechanist." If you spoke of yourself that way in a philosophical context a great deal of qualification would be needed, such as is happening right now.
Actually, as someone with a pretty extensive background in academic philosophy, no more qualification has been needed than the norm, where physicalism generally needs some qualification from everyone if we're getting down to the particulars of a physicalist view, since there are maybe as many different varieties of physicalism as there are physicalists.

At any rate, I'm definitely not saying that there exists anything nonphysical/immaterial, as I think the very idea of that is incoherent.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by ManInTheMoon »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 4th, 2021, 7:28 am
ManInTheMoon wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 3:38 pm Imagine that nothing exists that is capable of causing any kind of change, either to itself or to other things. Could any change occur?
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 8:05 am You have pre-defined the only possible answer to your question as you have stated it, so there no point or need for anyone else to comment.
ManInTheMoon wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 9:17 pm It seems like your final sentence contradicts everything you just said about change possibly not requiring a cause. Am I missing something?

???

You wrote (the equivalent of) Imagine that nothing exists that is red. Could red then exist?, and I commented accordingly.
You said "Is change caused by something, or is change just an intrinsic attribute of the universe? I see no obvious answer to this thorny question." I asked if change could occur if there were nothing that could cause change, because it seemed that you'd want to answer "yes", or "possibly", and I don't know if I can comprehend that. I was thinking it's just obvious that change must be caused by something.


Terrapin Station wrote: August 4th, 2021, 7:20 am
ManInTheMoon wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 9:17 pm I was answering the question why would I believe a will could be the kind of thing that requires no explanation. I didn't suggest that other things cannot be in the same category.
If any arbitrary thing could be the "ultimate cause" then how would the issue even arise in the first place?
How could there possibly be any evidence that "wills are something that brains do?"
We observe Joe's expressions of will. Then we observe things like Joe's brain injury or trauma or Joe's death, and we observe how it affects Joe's expressions of will. ALL of the sorts of available evidence we have about wills are in this vein. ALL of the evidence we have shows that wills are something that brains do. There is NO evidence that shows anything other than this.
How could you distinguish between a brain causing a free choice and a brain reacting to a free choice?
We'd need anything that would be evidence of a "free choice" that's not something a brain is doing. What evidence do you have in mind?
Observing expressions of will is not the same as observing will. Don't we all directly experience consciousness and choosing? The way I see it, you're saying that you don't exist, I don't exist, nobody exists; we're all just patterns formed by matter. Maybe there's a good argument against that, but I don't know it. I just know I don't naturally think of myself or other people that way.

At first I was thinking that only conscious things could conceivably cause change, but now I see more options to consider.


Steve3007 wrote: August 4th, 2021, 12:18 pm No, not quite. My view is that it is possible for a system to be deterministic while also being fundamentally unpredictable, not merely currently unpredictable. I think that this is where what is possible in practice and what is possible in principle become the same thing.
How are those not contradictory? How would you define "deterministic" and "fundamentally unpredictable"? I would think "deterministic" means that the future is implied by the present.



PoeticUniverse wrote: August 4th, 2021, 5:15 pm The ‘free will’ or not dilemma is whether the will’s product has to be what it is, as fixed and determined by a result from an estimation based on an analysis of scenarios of consequences based on and limited to its current repertoire, or if, well, … I don’t what alternative? Random instead? A mini first cause instead? Consciousness instead?

The ‘free’ part of ‘free will’ is thus not the trivial natural fact that the healthy will is free to operate when there’s no coercion, although the compatibilists think this is the whole deal; case closed.

‘Random’ would produce chaos.

‘Consciousness’ doesn’t will anything. While the brain’s subconscious analysis is quick, this process still takes a bit of time to figure a result, and only right after it finishes can the product get into conscious and get unified, integrated, and stitched to whatever was ongoing, and then presented, which also takes some time.

A mini first cause without access to the brain’s information wouldn’t know anything.

It makes sense that one’s two trillion or so neural connections really get used to narrow down the options and produce an output consistent with what one has become.
I'd think free will is necessarily connected with consciousness. If my choices are made by my brain before I'm even aware of them, then I don't have free will, even if my choices are not predictable, because I am not making the choice, unless I am my brain.

PoeticUniverse wrote: August 4th, 2021, 5:15 pm The brain’s will is dynamic and so its information continually increases from learning to a better fixed will of another moment, and so it is thus that it might then produce a different output than it did for the same situation in the past.
That's irrelevant, isn't it? What matters is if it could produce a different output from the exact same initial state based on conscious input.

PoeticUniverse wrote: August 4th, 2021, 5:15 pm We can never be free of the fixed will and who would even want to be? The will’s consistency aids survival, in general, and otherwise ever allows us to continue as we’ve become.

Does one want ‘free will’ because on the surface it just seems to be a good thing to have? Is it that being a kind of even a smart robot still seems repulsive?

There seems to be no alternative. Does that bring peace?

All in all, the Universe does us, not the other way around. We become who we are from our genetics and the influences from our surroundings and learning, for which we are never responsible. Both fame and shame cannot be claimed as owned and so they must fall by the wayside.
If there's no free will, is there really anyone to want anything? I appear to myself to exist, and I appear to have free will.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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I don't know if my original question here makes any sense now. I was thinking that interactions between wills, as we experience them, and matter might require some higher level conscious source of change to implement our choices as changes to matter. Now that seems dubious, but I definitely need to think more about all this.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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ManInTheMoon wrote: August 5th, 2021, 9:34 pm I was thinking that interactions between wills, as we experience them, and matter might require some higher level conscious source of change to implement our choices as changes to matter. Now that seems dubious, but I definitely need to think more about all this.
We can at least be sure that interactions between wills, as we experience them, and matter require some higher level UNconscious source of change to implement our choices as changes to matter.

We medium-sized beings - partway between atoms and the cosmic web - are massively subject to the dynamics within this 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tonne lump of complex materials (not just rock, as usually assumed) that holds us tight to its surface, along with the rest of its constituents. And its fate rests solely on the Sun's dynamics.

How free are we? We are controlled by our star, our planet, by physics, by our nations, cultures and subcultures. Our families, our workplaces and so on. So we can at least say with confidence that at various times in our lives, most of us will feel fairly free. People tend to take most of the above limitations for granted and thus discuss freedom within the "sheltered workshop" of human society.

It's not miles from our body cells thinking they are free because they can encode different proteins based on their inputs. If there's such a thing as a higher intelligence (never say never, eh?) I expect it would see us as quaint and cute.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by ManInTheMoon »

Sy Borg wrote: August 5th, 2021, 10:03 pm We can at least be sure that interactions between wills, as we experience them, and matter require some higher level UNconscious source of change to implement our choices as changes to matter.

We medium-sized beings - partway between atoms and the cosmic web - are massively subject to the dynamics within this 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tonne lump of complex materials (not just rock, as usually assumed) that holds us tight to its surface, along with the rest of its constituents. And its fate rests solely on the Sun's dynamics.
That's not really what I meant, but you probably knew that. I wouldn't think of the sun or the earth as sources of change, or as being at a higher level. They're big conglomerations of matter. It would be the fundamental material particles, whatever those are, that might cause change. A higher level source, as I was using the term, would be one that can change not only itself, but lower level sources as well. So I was imagining that there's matter, and minds, and these might be able to change themselves, but not each other, and that would imply something greater than either that can change both. But, as I said, I'm not at all sure about that now.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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ManInTheMoon wrote: August 5th, 2021, 9:24 pm I'd think free will is necessarily connected with consciousness. If my choices are made by my brain before I'm even aware of them, then I don't have free will, even if my choices are not predictable, because I am not making the choice, unless I am my brain.
Your subconscious brain is in charge and it does all the subconscious figuring, plus it is fixed to doing what it has to vote to do. Consciousness serves to make the result globally available in a useful unified way for memory/learning to possibly use it in future subconscious analyses or at the next moment by whatever subconscious brain area gets interested in it.

So, yes, your brain is you.
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