Atheism is not Logical

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 20th, 2021, 11:29 am
Sculptor1 wrote: September 19th, 2021, 12:39 pm Humans don't need any sunshine.
Tell my dermatologist that. He says that sunlight is one of the few things that can help to keep psoriasis under control. [The other things are coal-tar and vitamin D creams.] On the whole, I'll go with him rather than you. Sorry.
You can get Vitamin D from a range of other things including artificial light.
Eat a fish!
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

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Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:59 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:00 am I did not say we needed sunshine, that was Newme.
Okay.
You went pretty hard at me while being thoroughly wrong - so certain of your rightness :lol: :lol:

Besides, we are obviously evolved to need sunshine. Any claim to the contrary is just arguing for argument's sake. Aside from Vitamin D, there's benefits to the immune system, the mind, sleep patterns, bones and blood pressure.

BTW, while artificial light can be used to grow healthy plants, it's not ""better" than sunlight, just more consistent.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

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Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:13 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:59 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:00 am I did not say we needed sunshine, that was Newme.
Okay.
You went pretty hard at me while being thoroughly wrong - so certain of your rightness :lol: :lol:

Besides, we are obviously evolved to need sunshine. Any claim to the contrary is just arguing for argument's sake. Aside from Vitamin D, there's benefits to the immune system, the mind, sleep patterns, bones and blood pressure.

BTW, while artificial light can be used to grow healthy plants, it's not ""better" than sunlight, just more consistent.
We are not evolve TO anything.
That's not how evelution works. It's a common enough misconception. Evolution is an effect not a cause.

No there is no benefit beyond vitamin D which can be got from many sources. I suppose some people might rerive socially constructed psychological benefits from sunshine; others prefer to live in caves. All the benefits you mention can be better controlled with artificail light, which can be controlled better.

People can live with zero sunshine; underground; in submarines; in prison; in space.

And artificial light does work better than sunshine since you can control its duration intensity and vary the spectrum to guide different growing needs. Sunlight is chancey.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

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Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:04 pm
Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:13 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:59 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:00 am I did not say we needed sunshine, that was Newme.
Okay.
You went pretty hard at me while being thoroughly wrong - so certain of your rightness :lol: :lol:

Besides, we are obviously evolved to need sunshine. Any claim to the contrary is just arguing for argument's sake. Aside from Vitamin D, there's benefits to the immune system, the mind, sleep patterns, bones and blood pressure.

BTW, while artificial light can be used to grow healthy plants, it's not ""better" than sunlight, just more consistent.
We are not evolve TO anything.
That's not how evelution works. It's a common enough misconception. Evolution is an effect not a cause.

No there is no benefit beyond vitamin D which can be got from many sources. I suppose some people might rerive socially constructed psychological benefits from sunshine; others prefer to live in caves. All the benefits you mention can be better controlled with artificail light, which can be controlled better.

People can live with zero sunshine; underground; in submarines; in prison; in space.

And artificial light does work better than sunshine since you can control its duration intensity and vary the spectrum to guide different growing needs. Sunlight is chancey.
No, animals evolve TO need certain things, and sunlight is one of them. It's about function, not the mistaken assumption you made that the claim was teleological.

The evidence for this is material, found in the fossil records that reveal how extinction events follow major supervolcano eruptions - mainly because it reduces the available sunlight for organisms. There may come a time when humans are forced to adapt to life strictly indoors or underground, but the changes will result in much death, illness and mental illness - because humans have evolved to need sunshine for their health and happiness.

And this is all a digression from the thread topic, the premise of which I reject out of hand. Oerceived ideological foes have been deemed illogical, and worse, for millennia so the OP is just one more piece of ideological polemic.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

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Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:17 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:04 pm
Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:13 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:59 am

Okay.
You went pretty hard at me while being thoroughly wrong - so certain of your rightness :lol: :lol:

Besides, we are obviously evolved to need sunshine. Any claim to the contrary is just arguing for argument's sake. Aside from Vitamin D, there's benefits to the immune system, the mind, sleep patterns, bones and blood pressure.

BTW, while artificial light can be used to grow healthy plants, it's not ""better" than sunlight, just more consistent.
We are not evolve TO anything.
That's not how evelution works. It's a common enough misconception. Evolution is an effect not a cause.

No there is no benefit beyond vitamin D which can be got from many sources. I suppose some people might rerive socially constructed psychological benefits from sunshine; others prefer to live in caves. All the benefits you mention can be better controlled with artificail light, which can be controlled better.

People can live with zero sunshine; underground; in submarines; in prison; in space.

And artificial light does work better than sunshine since you can control its duration intensity and vary the spectrum to guide different growing needs. Sunlight is chancey.
No, animals evolve TO need certain things, and sunlight is one of them. It's about function, not the mistaken assumption you made that the claim was teleological.

The evidence for this is material, found in the fossil records that reveal how extinction events follow major supervolcano eruptions - mainly because it reduces the available sunlight for organisms. There may come a time when humans are forced to adapt to life strictly indoors or underground, but the changes will result in much death, illness and mental illness - because humans have evolved to need sunshine for their health and happiness.

And this is all a digression from the thread topic, the premise of which I reject out of hand. Oerceived ideological foes have been deemed illogical, and worse, for millennia so the OP is just one more piece of ideological polemic.
No.
Sunlight predates all animals. The existence of sunlight, the earth, and the organic elements that comprise the biolocal scum that exists on the planet thrives within the conditions that pertain.
That is not saying that things evolve TO need. You have it precisely backwards.
The sun is replacable. Humans have no direct need of it.
Everything else that follows your opening gambit is just cake decoration.
If it is a digression, then why are you continuing to quiz me on the subject?
It's not like I brought it up.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 12:00 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 20th, 2021, 11:29 am
Sculptor1 wrote: September 19th, 2021, 12:39 pm Humans don't need any sunshine.
Tell my dermatologist that. He says that sunlight is one of the few things that can help to keep psoriasis under control. [The other things are coal-tar and vitamin D creams.] On the whole, I'll go with him rather than you. Sorry.
You can get Vitamin D from a range of other things including artificial light.
Eat a fish!
Ultra-violet light, with the correct spectrum, and of the correct intensity, is best obtained from sunlight.
Pattern-chaser

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Sculptor1
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 21st, 2021, 12:08 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 12:00 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 20th, 2021, 11:29 am
Sculptor1 wrote: September 19th, 2021, 12:39 pm Humans don't need any sunshine.
Tell my dermatologist that. He says that sunlight is one of the few things that can help to keep psoriasis under control. [The other things are coal-tar and vitamin D creams.] On the whole, I'll go with him rather than you. Sorry.
You can get Vitamin D from a range of other things including artificial light.
Eat a fish!
Ultra-violet light, with the correct spectrum, and of the correct intensity, is best obtained from sunlight.
I do not think so. It's best to avoid the sunlight, even if you have to chance to get enough through the clouds and viccicitudes of day and season.
It's far safer to drop a tab or drink some milk.
Last edited by Sculptor1 on September 21st, 2021, 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sy Borg »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 21st, 2021, 4:11 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:17 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:04 pm
Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:13 pm
You went pretty hard at me while being thoroughly wrong - so certain of your rightness :lol: :lol:

Besides, we are obviously evolved to need sunshine. Any claim to the contrary is just arguing for argument's sake. Aside from Vitamin D, there's benefits to the immune system, the mind, sleep patterns, bones and blood pressure.

BTW, while artificial light can be used to grow healthy plants, it's not ""better" than sunlight, just more consistent.
We are not evolve TO anything.
That's not how evelution works. It's a common enough misconception. Evolution is an effect not a cause.

No there is no benefit beyond vitamin D which can be got from many sources. I suppose some people might rerive socially constructed psychological benefits from sunshine; others prefer to live in caves. All the benefits you mention can be better controlled with artificail light, which can be controlled better.

People can live with zero sunshine; underground; in submarines; in prison; in space.

And artificial light does work better than sunshine since you can control its duration intensity and vary the spectrum to guide different growing needs. Sunlight is chancey.
No, animals evolve TO need certain things, and sunlight is one of them. It's about function, not the mistaken assumption you made that the claim was teleological.

The evidence for this is material, found in the fossil records that reveal how extinction events follow major supervolcano eruptions - mainly because it reduces the available sunlight for organisms. There may come a time when humans are forced to adapt to life strictly indoors or underground, but the changes will result in much death, illness and mental illness - because humans have evolved to need sunshine for their health and happiness.

And this is all a digression from the thread topic, the premise of which I reject out of hand. Perceived ideological foes have been deemed illogical, and worse, for millennia so the OP is just one more piece of ideological polemic.
No.
Sunlight predates all animals. The existence of sunlight, the earth, and the organic elements that comprise the biolocal scum that exists on the planet thrives within the conditions that pertain.
That is not saying that things evolve TO need. You have it precisely backwards.
The sun is replacable. Humans have no direct need of it.
Everything else that follows your opening gambit is just cake decoration.
If it is a digression, then why are you continuing to quiz me on the subject?
It's not like I brought it up.
If you keep arguing and seemingly deliberately misunderstanding my angle, then you obviously push me to reply. You raised the problem, making a big deal out of a one-liner from Newme, which you then used to criticise me.

Whatever, artificial light started its life as sunlight, as is the case for the entire Earth. You can't escape it. The Earth itself is little more than detritus of our star in youth, whose future has been shaped by, you guessed it, the Sun. What of your recommendation to drink milk instead? Milk comes from cows, who eat grass, which have grown by photosynthesising.

It is obvious that humans need sunlight. Sure, a government could issue everyone with Vitamin D tablets, a set of high powered lamps and counselling for depression (not to mention paying electricity bills) but that would be that would be absurd unless it's too dangerous to go outdoors. So, in the meantime, humans absolutely NEED sunlight. By your logic we don't need to eat or drink either, just spend our lives being fed nutrients on a drip.

Atheism is logical but your stance on sunlight much less so.
Tegularius
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Tegularius »

The sun's full energy spectrum caused and causes everything to grow and exist from day one (whichever day that was). Now after all that and ever since nature's masterpiece appeared on the planet :lol: :lol: :lol:, we no-longer have direct need of sunlight. Plato's cave may be all we need as superior beings who no-longer require anything so trivial as sunlight. Vitamin D and artificial light directly focused - instead of being spread all over the place, like other planets...what a waste! - is so much more efficient. Who needs the sun when we got TECHNOLOGY!! :roll:
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Newme »

Well, sun bathing feels so good - so it must be good for me!
In moderation.

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“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Newme »

Sy Borg wrote: September 20th, 2021, 6:17 pmAnd this is all a digression from the thread topic, the premise of which I reject out of hand. Oerceived ideological foes have been deemed illogical, and worse, for millennia so the OP is just one more piece of ideological polemic.
You & others made appreciated points about the sun. Thanks also for bringing it back on topic.

Atheism - or really, most herd mentalities that can be labeled - are illogical. To even suggest you don’t believe in something that hasn’t even been properly defined, is illogical. To go by that group’s belief package also doesn’t make sense.

Then, there’s the huge strawman which Atheism is based on - picking the easiest definitions of God to refute, while ignoring more difficult ones, like “God is truth.” If God is truth, how or why would any logical person deny that? The Bible lists +800 ideas of God. Taoism, Islam & other religions suggest God/Allah/The Way - cannot be described in words.

Agnosticism is probably most logical. But some belief in God/afterlife is healthy psychologically - like a functional illusion at least - and power of placebo and more - at most.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Terrapin Station »

Newme wrote: September 23rd, 2021, 11:07 am Atheism - or really, most herd mentalities that can be labeled - are illogical. To even suggest you don’t believe in something that hasn’t even been properly defined, is illogical.
The "it's not properly defined" tactic is bs. It reminds me of the stupid "No one is a hipster because you can't define 'hipster'" sort of nonsense that some people are attracted to.

People who believe that there is a God have something in mind that they are referring to in that belief. You can simply use what they're referring to in order to determine whether you believe there is such a thing or not.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Steve3007 »

Newme wrote:Atheism - or really, most herd mentalities that can be labeled - are illogical. To even suggest you don’t believe in something that hasn’t even been properly defined, is illogical. To go by that group’s belief package also doesn’t make sense.

Then, there’s the huge strawman which Atheism is based on - picking the easiest definitions of God to refute, while ignoring more difficult ones, like “God is truth.” If God is truth, how or why would any logical person deny that? The Bible lists +800 ideas of God. Taoism, Islam & other religions suggest God/Allah/The Way - cannot be described in words.
If someone asks me "do you believe that X exists?", if I think I already have a reasonably good idea of what they mean by X, I'll tell them whether I believe that. If not, I'll ask them what they mean by it, and then tell them. I won't suspend [dis]belief just in case there might be some other meaning that someone else uses.

For some reason when the word "belief" is used in the context of God it often seems to get associated with all kinds of other words like "certain", "deny", "reject" and so on. So the statement "I do not believe in God" often gets parsed as "I reject God" or "I am certain that there is no God" or "I deny God" or some such thing.

Also, people who say things like "I don't believe in God" are sometimes told that, in saying that, they're following a herd. They're rarely told that if they say something like "I don't believe it's Friday today". If you were brought up in an environment in which God and religion didn't really feature one way or another, and if you're then introduced to the idea and if you state that the idea, as it's been introduced to you, seems improbable, it's strange to be told that, in saying that, you're following a herd. :D
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Terrapin Station wrote: September 23rd, 2021, 11:22 am People who believe that there is a God have something in mind that they are referring to in that belief. You can simply use what they're referring to in order to determine whether you believe there is such a thing or not.
A ‘Mind’ as the The Existence is dubious since:

— Systems can’t be Fundamental. We look back and see the simple being first.

— We’d have to explain this greater level as just being so all the more than the lesser level that we won’t accept as just being so, and so forth.

— Life continuing on Earth seems precarious, given many near extinctions.

— Achieving life took a very long time: 13.75 billion years.

— Throwing a large asteroid at Earth to provide an opening for us mammals to evolve after the Permian Extinction doesn’t seem intelligent.

— The Big Bang seems to be a big mess, and so not a design.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical

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Sy Borg wrote: September 21st, 2021, 5:43 pm Atheism is logical but your stance on sunlight much less so.
In your opinion.
Oh well
.
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