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Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Pastabake
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Pastabake » November 5th, 2013, 9:44 am

Fanman, the quote you posted was from Mysterio448 not me.

I don't really see what point you're trying to make. Are you suggesting that the other cultures sacrifices were not in accordance to their Gods wishes? Seems to me that you might be making the mistake of thinking that your God is real while the others aren't. No amount of pantomime, however it is supposedly ordained, makes a difference to the fundamental logic of the act.

Greatest I am
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Greatest I am » November 5th, 2013, 2:51 pm

Mysterio448

+ 1 so far.

I like to give this following to theists.


I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and here you are preaching for Satan. Shame on you.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning.

He would know that barbaric human sacrifice is immoral.

You do too. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

When you die, Satan will ask you; How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

When you say yes, you become his.


My position is simple. Substitutionary atonement is completely immoral and goes against every moral law that I know of including those in the bible.

Yet Christians will try to line up to have their bit of that sacrifice for their get out of jail free ticket.

They have sold their souls to Satan.

Regards DL

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Fanman
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Fanman » November 5th, 2013, 3:18 pm

Pastabake,
Fanman, the quote you posted was from Mysterio448 not me.
My apologies, I have corrected the error.
I don't really see what point you're trying to make. Are you suggesting that the other cultures sacrifices were not in accordance to their Gods wishes? Seems to me that you might be making the mistake of thinking that your God is real while the others aren't. No amount of pantomime, however it is supposedly ordained, makes a difference to the fundamental logic of the act.
I think that I have covered all the that points you've raised here in my post to Myserio448, which I mistakenly addressed to you.
Once a theist, now agnostic.

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 5th, 2013, 5:04 pm

Misty wrote:enegue said:
God didn't sacrifice his son. He allowed him to choose TO BE the spotless Lamb THAT WE could offer up as a sacrifice

enegue,

I was referring to the above post by you saying "WE" (humans) could offer up as a sacrifice. Then in your last post to me you offered where Jesus laid down his life, which I agree with, but "WE" humans did not offer up Jesus or that negates his will to give up his human life. Are you saying Jesus was not murdered by humans?
Well, I don't what you are doing when you take Holy Communion, but for me, the elements represent the body and blood of the Lamb of God.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
-- John 1:29

The title of "LAMB of God who takes away the SIN of the world", what could it possibly refer to but the sacrificial system in Israel. Now, we have already discussed in this thread that Jesus didn't have his throat cut and his body wasn't flayed and roasted on the altar in Jerusalem, and his blood wasn't sprinkled on and around the altar, so what do you think John was referring to?

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
-- Luke 22:20

Which is the explanation of what Jesus had said before to his disciples:
I am that bread of life.

Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

-- John 6:48-53

"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." is what I am doing when I take part in Holy Communion. This is the spiritual equivalent of what was physically happening in OT Israel. As I said before in this thread:
The spirit of every believer is a priest who takes the Lamb at the door of the Tabernacle, an offering of his mind as an atonement for the sins of his mind and body. The mind places its hand, as it were, upon the head of this lamb, and accepts responsibility for the flaying of its flesh and the shedding of its blood as the necessary protocol that will maintain the life of the believer and his relationship with God.

No-one will do this unless they are convinced that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Cheers,
enegue

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Misty
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Misty » November 5th, 2013, 5:37 pm

enegue wrote:
enegue,

I was referring to the above post by you saying "WE" (humans) could offer up as a sacrifice. Then in your last post to me you offered where Jesus laid down his life, which I agree with, but "WE" humans did not offer up Jesus or that negates his will to give up his human life. Are you saying Jesus was not murdered by humans? (Nested quote removed.)

enegue,

Thanks for another sermon. Now please answer my above comment and question, without preaching.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 5th, 2013, 7:47 pm

Misty wrote:enegue,

I was referring to the above post by you saying "WE" (humans) could offer up as a sacrifice. Then in your last post to me you offered where Jesus laid down his life, which I agree with, but "WE" humans did not offer up Jesus or that negates his will to give up his human life. Are you saying Jesus was not murdered by humans? (Nested quote removed.)

enegue,

Thanks for another sermon. Now please answer my above comment and question, without preaching.
LOL. When did you decide I was preaching? Before you got to this bit:
"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." is what I am doing when I take part in Holy Communion. This is the spiritual equivalent of what was physically happening in OT Israel. As I said before in this thread:
The spirit of every believer is a priest who takes the Lamb at the door of the Tabernacle, an offering of his mind as an atonement for the sins of his mind and body. The mind places its hand, as it were, upon the head of this lamb, and accepts responsibility for the flaying of its flesh and the shedding of its blood as the necessary protocol that will maintain the life of the believer and his relationship with God.

No-one will do this unless they are convinced that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Jesus is God's precious thing, like the BEST ox or the BEST lamb, but better because Jesus chose to BE the Lamb that would suffice FOR ALL TIME as the acceptable sacrifice that WE (those who believe) offer up to God in order to maintain our relationship with Him.

Why is it necessary? To keep the cost of MY sin in the forefront of MY thinking. Because every time I act contrary to God principles of life, I set in motion a chain of events that will cause issues for my children and their children, up to the fourth generation after me, which is how far the impact of MY sin extends.

Doing this enables me to walk blameless in God's sight, and allows Him to exercise His great mercy toward me by severing the chain of events that my sin would have set in motion, before it has an impact on anyone but me. I pay the cost, not my children or their children.

I highlighted the essential bits in red so you wouldn't miss them this time.

Cheers,
enegue

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Misty
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Misty » November 6th, 2013, 7:04 am

enegue wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

LOL. When did you decide I was preaching? Before you got to this bit:
"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." is what I am doing when I take part in Holy Communion. This is the spiritual equivalent of what was physically happening in OT Israel. As I said before in this thread:
The spirit of every believer is a priest who takes the Lamb at the door of the Tabernacle, an offering of his mind as an atonement for the sins of his mind and body. The mind places its hand, as it were, upon the head of this lamb, and accepts responsibility for the flaying of its flesh and the shedding of its blood as the necessary protocol that will maintain the life of the believer and his relationship with God.

No-one will do this unless they are convinced that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Jesus is God's precious thing, like the BEST ox or the BEST lamb, but better because Jesus chose to BE the Lamb that would suffice FOR ALL TIME as the acceptable sacrifice that WE (those who believe) offer up to God in order to maintain our relationship with Him.

Why is it necessary? To keep the cost of MY sin in the forefront of MY thinking. Because every time I act contrary to God principles of life, I set in motion a chain of events that will cause issues for my children and their children, up to the fourth generation after me, which is how far the impact of MY sin extends.

Doing this enables me to walk blameless in God's sight, and allows Him to exercise His great mercy toward me by severing the chain of events that my sin would have set in motion, before it has an impact on anyone but me. I pay the cost, not my children or their children.

I highlighted the essential bits in red so you wouldn't miss them this time.

Cheers,
enegue
(Nested quote removed.)

You continue to preach and ignore questions posed to you. Are you afraid to answer the comment and question I posed to you? Enegue, are you trying to convert people to your religious way of thinking? The answer is yes you are. The arrogance in your preaching is a stumbling block for others, and using LOL, which you think gives you the upper hand is a trick of Satan. People have tried to use scripture to prove their own way of thinking since scripture existed. That does not make one right or holy. Oh, no need to highlight enegue, I read it the first time. Can't you see your own arrogance with statements like "I highlighted bits in red so you wouldn't miss them this time." ? Do you really think you will win hearts to Christ this way?
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.

Greatest I am
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Greatest I am » November 6th, 2013, 8:54 pm

Misty

You are way too much of a lady to be hanging around rough shod debaters like you will find here.

I like those like you being here to try to civilize us but you likely belong where fellowship is more prevalent than here.

We are all here to preach, even atheists, and bring minds to our way of thinking whatever that way is.

Some of us try to do it in an intelligent logical and reasoned way but many theist do not have that option as they believe by faith and not logic or reason.

Others, perhaps like you and I, see value in having discussion of God to hone our own view and subject our notions to the heat of debate so that we can purify them.

Theist want to confirm they are right and think that preaching helps them believe. As they do that, they do not recognize that they are allowing others to basically win the argument or debate by default.

From MPOV, this is all good for my side but it is destroying religion all together and to be frank, even as some think otherwise, I am not interested in killing religions. I just want to change them to a more palatable form.

Keep up the good work. Between your soft love and my tough one, we might actual;ly accomplish something worthy.

Regards DL

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 6th, 2013, 9:43 pm

Misty wrote:Enegue, are you trying to convert people to your religious way of thinking? The answer is yes you are. The arrogance in your preaching is a stumbling block for others, and using LOL, which you think gives you the upper hand is a trick of Satan. People have tried to use scripture to prove their own way of thinking since scripture existed. That does not make one right or holy. Oh, no need to highlight enegue, I read it the first time. Can't you see your own arrogance with statements like "I highlighted bits in red so you wouldn't miss them this time." ? Do you really think you will win hearts to Christ this way?
I'm just sharing what I know, Misty. This topic was all about sacrifice and how the creator of the topic couldn't see any difference between the various forms of sacrifice. Everything I have contributed has been relevant to showing him that his narrow view of the topic is the reason he couldn't discern any difference.

In regard to the red text, it has nothing to do with arrogance. You said I didn't answer your question, so I had to find a way to show you that I had. Now, you are still protesting that I haven't answered your question. If you are really interested in an answer, can you please be more specific about what it is you want me to address, and I'll do my best.

Cheers,
enegue

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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Misty » November 7th, 2013, 6:24 am

enegue wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

I'm just sharing what I know, Misty. This topic was all about sacrifice and how the creator of the topic couldn't see any difference between the various forms of sacrifice. Everything I have contributed has been relevant to showing him that his narrow view of the topic is the reason he couldn't discern any difference.

In regard to the red text, it has nothing to do with arrogance. You said I didn't answer your question, so I had to find a way to show you that I had. Now, you are still protesting that I haven't answered your question. If you are really interested in an answer, can you please be more specific about what it is you want me to address, and I'll do my best.

Cheers,
enegue
enegue, I know you are sharing what you know. I cannot make my question or comment any more clear than on posts #55 and #59. Misty
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 7th, 2013, 6:38 am

Misty wrote:enegue, I know you are sharing what you know. I cannot make my question or comment any more clear than on posts #55 and #59. Misty
That's not good enough, Misty. You did the same thing to me when you claimed the words in one of my posts were offensive, but you wouldn't highlight for me what the words were. Please write your question specifically, so there is no mistake about what you are asking.

Your feathers have been ruffled in regard to the different ways we see things, and you can't think of anything better than to give me a good ol' tongue lashing. That's ok. Get it off your chest.

Cheers,
enegue

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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Misty » November 7th, 2013, 6:59 am

enegue wrote: That's not good enough, Misty. You did the same thing to me when you claimed the words in one of my posts were offensive, but you wouldn't highlight for me what the words were. Please write your question specifically, so there is no mistake about what you are asking.

Your feathers have been ruffled in regard to the different ways we see things, and you can't think of anything better than to give me a good ol' tongue lashing. That's ok. Get it off your chest.

Cheers,
enegue
enegue, I don't play games with adults. My guess is you are in your 50's + so I treat you like an adult. The post you are speaking of is only a couple of sentences so I did not think you needed direction. I have no feathers, enegue, and seeing things differently is a human condition, inevitable and quite OK. It is OK if you don't want to take responsibility for your posts. I won't press you to be honest. It will come with maturity when you get over your own sense of superiority over others. It is a hard lesson, again shown by Jesus and his encounter with the Pharisees. The good news is you and me and the rest of creation will not be held responsible for our ignorance, we are covered by love.
Last edited by Misty on November 7th, 2013, 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 7th, 2013, 7:16 am

Misty,

Unless you write a specific question and also quote my post with the offensive words highlighted in context so that everyone who is reading these posts can see what you are talking about, then I have nothing further to say to you.

Cheers,
enegue

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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Misty » November 7th, 2013, 7:47 am

enegue wrote:Misty,

Unless you write a specific question and also quote my post with the offensive words highlighted in context so that everyone who is reading these posts can see what you are talking about, then I have nothing further to say to you.

Cheers,
enegue
enegue, I thought as much, you are very predictable. I am here if you ever decide to defend your post. Misty
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.

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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Mysterio448 » November 8th, 2013, 11:57 am

Fanman wrote:Mysterio448,


(Nested quote removed.)


Hmm okay, let us review what I stated:


(Nested quote removed.)

I don't think that it is possible for me to have an objective standard or point of reference to judge a sacrifice by, because the basis of my opinions and standards is subjectivity, but if I attempted to do as you ask, I would insist that no human beings were sacrificed, and upon certain animals to be sacrificed, which were not exotic, easily obtainable, not at risk of becoming an endangered species and easy to kill. The quality of the animal would depend upon what it was fed, its age (that it had the chance to experience some life), that it was physically clean and unblemished. In regards to your comparison of one sacrifice to another, you can gather the answer to this question from what I've stated above, in that a poor quality or wrong (morally and actually) sacrifice, so to speak, would be the opposite of everything that I stated. As to your final premise, it is difficult, because it assumes that God exists and that gods exist also. However, according to the Bible, only one God exists, you are arguing from a Biblical perspective, therefore you cannot bring other gods into the equation without your argument becoming nonsensical and breaking-down. You might not feel that specifics / preparations are relevant, but do you not see the fundamental difference between sacrificing human-beings and sacrificing certain types of animals?

You mentioned that an objective standard of quality for a sacrifice is the usage of animals that are not exotic, easily attainable, not an endangered species, and easy to kill. While these factors may be meaningful in an environmental sense, I still don't understand how these factors are related to the overall logic of the act of sacrifice. Say I owe a debtor some money and I can't come up with the money. Instead of paying money, I decide to sacrifice my dog. My dog is a common breed so is not exotic, it is easily attainable, not endangered and is relatively easy to kill. Furthermore, my dog is very dear to me and sacrificing it will not be an easy thing to do (much like God's sacrificing Jesus). So I take my dog upon the altar, slit its throat so that the blood gushes out, I smear the blood upon the horns of the altar and pour the rest of my dog's blood at the bottom of the altar, then I remove all the fat from my dog's body and burn it on the altar, then I burn the rest of my dog's flesh. Would you say that my debtor should accept my sacrifice? Should my debt be absolved? Does this logic make sense to you? If not, then why did it make sense when the Jews did it?

You said that you didn't claim the Jewish animal sacrifice was superior to the Gentile sacrifice, but isn't that kind of a self-contradiction? I mean, if the Jewish sacrifices were not superior to others then what's the point of you praising them the way you do? Isn't that kind of the whole point of this thread? Jesus' crucifixion was significant only inasmuch as the Jewish sacrifice ritual was significant. Otherwise Jesus' crucifixion was no more special than any of the other thousands of unfortunate souls who were crucified by the Romans. It seems to me that if you cannot propose an objective means to prove the superiority of Jewish animal sacrifice, then the fundamental logic of Christianity is suspect.

You say that these are spiritual matters, and I as a godless atheist cannot understand spiritual matters. What do you mean by that? What does "spiritual" mean? Can you provide a meaningful, unambiguous definition of that term? If you cannot, then I would suggest that you leave that term out of this discussion since it only confuses the issue. After reading your comments so far, I interpret the word, as you use it, to just be a clever euphemism for "pointless." To see what I mean, try reading through the following quote while replacing each instance of the word "spiritual" or "celestial" with the word "pointless":
Well you're entitled to you opinions, but you are again superimposing a terrestrial event upon a celestial one, by means of analogy, which does in my opinion, demonstrate a lack of spiritual understanding. If I can perform the mundane task you stipulate, it does not, to my knowledge, have any spiritual implications; whereas sacrificing an innocent life, in order for it to absorb the consequences of one's sins, is huge spiritually. I don't observe any mysteries in the ritual of sacrifice, it is a spiritual transaction. Again, if you don't believe that the ritual has any intrinsic and practical value that's up to you. However, being of a religious ilk, I would argue that the sacrificial protocols are important, because they constitute the nature of the sacrifice, therefore comparison is not pointless.
I can't help but see a certain circular-ness about all this sacrifice business. Jesus' sacrifice did not save you from any kind of imminent danger outside of the wrath of God himself. Mankind is essentially only in danger from God's unshakeable sense of justice; we are born in sin and "the wages of sin is death." But the perfect jurisprudence of God is called into question when you realize that he is basically angry with us because two people ate a piece of fruit thousands of years before we were even born. Does that sound fair to you? Should I demand that you be locked up in prison for all the rapes that Genghis Khan committed against innocent women? The way I see it, your salvation as a Christian is a symbolic consequence of Jesus' sacrifice which was a symbolic imitation of a symbolic ritual that symbolically atones for a symbolic guilt. Am I wrong in this assessment?

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