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Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Pastabake
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Pastabake » November 12th, 2013, 8:57 am

So what you've said basically agrees with what OntheHorizon has been saying, the only difference is that you're failing to see the obvious.

Belief in God = Right = Possible Life.

Disbelief in God = Wrong = Certain Death.

You even say as much here -
enegue wrote:It teaches that if a person wants to dwell with God, and be a citizen in a realm in which Jesus rules as sovereign, according to the principles of God, then they will never die.
Of course if there is any doubt as to whether God will just let every unbeliever get on with their mortal lives it is answered by revelation and the end of days.

God will murder every unbeliever, and some believers too, when he decides that the time has come for the final judgement.

Perhaps you haven't gotten to the end of the NT yet?

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 12th, 2013, 9:18 am

Pastabake wrote:Disbelief in God = Wrong = Certain Death.
Don't be a silly sausage, Pastabake. "Disbelief in God" is not the same as "doing something wrong". Doing something wrong is acting contrary to God's principles of life. Not believing in God doesn't mean you act contrary to God's principles of life. It might be that you keep all his principles, but your disbelief will mean that you won't choose to be rescued and will be left behind. God's not going to take you against you will.
Pastabake wrote:Of course if there is any doubt as to whether God will just let every unbeliever get on with their mortal lives it is answered by revelation and the end of days.
God will do precisely what you say. He will most certainly let every unbeliever get on with their mortal lives, but He has to warn them that their own behaviour is what will bring on the end of days. He's on a rescue mission. He wants to save you from yourself.
Pastabake wrote:God will murder every unbeliever, and some believers too, when he decides that the time has come for the final judgement.
You will murder these people, Pastabake, in your attempts to secure your little patch of turf, and to acquire and protect your meagre means of sustenance. There will be many people more powerful than you, who will want what little you have.
Pastabake wrote:Perhaps you haven't gotten to the end of the NT yet?
No. I've definitely been there, and it will be no different to life on the planet before the Deluge, when the thoughts and intents of the hearts of the people where only evil continually. I'm afraid Hell will be of your making, not God's

Enegue. (I just couldn't bring myself to write "Cheers" at the end of such a dismal revelation)
Last edited by enegue on November 12th, 2013, 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

Greatest I am
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Greatest I am » November 12th, 2013, 9:28 am

How strange that a God who can cure as well as kill, always chooses to kill.

Strange that a moral God always makes the immoral choice.

Regards DL

Pastabake
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Pastabake » November 12th, 2013, 10:11 am

enegue wrote:Don't be a silly sausage, Pastabake. "Disbelief in God" is not the same as "doing something wrong".
Funny then that the punishment is the same.
enegue wrote:He has to warn them that their own behaviour is what will bring on the end of days. He's on a rescue mission. He wants to save you from yourself.
Utter tripe, God can do anything so there is no need for a rescue at least not in the petty way that is implied by the end of days.
enegue wrote:You will murder these people, Pastabake, in your attempts to secure your little patch of turf, and to acquire and protect your meagre means of sustenance. There will be many people more powerful than you, who will want what little you have.
No I wont. There are three facts that you've failed to grasp. One - Removing the religious people now would solve most of the worlds problems vis a vis space and resource requirements. Two - According to some people in the know we are at peak child production so the worlds population seems to be either in long term decline or stabilised. Therefore removing all the religious people will only make things more spacious. Three - as technology moves on the requirements for large labour forces and the increased automation means that societies will no longer be so dependent upon human intervention. So the loss of however many people at the end of days will have an increasingly insignificant effect as time goes on.
enegue wrote:No. I've definitely been there, and it will be no different to life on the planet before the Deluge, when the thoughts and intents of the hearts of the people where only evil continually. I'm afraid Hell will be of your making, not God's
Yes the deluge, one of those other occasions where God committed mass murder because he couldn't cope with the majority of the worlds population not believing in him.

You can see why I'm not convinced by your belief that it wont be God that punishes the unbelievers.
enegue wrote:Enegue. (I just couldn't bring myself to write "Cheers" at the end of such a dismal revelation)
Bitter medicine is rarely appreciated. and the messenger is often punished for the message.

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 12th, 2013, 7:51 pm

Pastabake wrote:enegue said:
Don't be a silly sausage, Pastabake. "Disbelief in God" is not the same as "doing something wrong".

Funny then that the punishment is the same.
Yes, and they are both self-inflicted.
Pastabake wrote:enegue said:
He has to warn them that their own behaviour is what will bring on the end of days. He's on a rescue mission. He wants to save you from yourself.

Utter tripe, God can do anything so there is no need for a rescue at least not in the petty way that is implied by the end of days.
But, He won't trample on your free-will, Pastabake. He could, but to take you kicking and screaming into Paradise would have you existing there in opposition to Him as you are here. Surely you can see the wisdom and love in telling you what to expect in a realm totally devoid of His input, and then leaving the decision about whether you want to be rescued from such a state, in your hands.
Pastabake wrote:enegue said:
You will murder these people, Pastabake, in your attempts to secure your little patch of turf, and to acquire and protect your meagre means of sustenance. There will be many people more powerful than you, who will want what little you have.

... Removing the religious people now would solve most of the worlds problems vis a vis space and resource requirements ...
Let's get this straight, Pastabake. God - the God of the Bible - has opened a door to all those whose hearts desire is to dwell with Him, and to live as a citizen in a realm over which Jesus rules as sovereign, according to God's principles of life. There is no-one standing guard at this doorway to turn people away. There is no need because people have made up their minds about what is on the other side and THEY WILL CHOOSE NOT TO ENTER. You are I can both testify to the truth of this.
Pastabake wrote:enegue said:
No. I've definitely been there, and it will be no different to life on the planet before the Deluge, when the thoughts and intents of the hearts of the people where only evil continually. I'm afraid Hell will be of your making, not God's

Yes the deluge, one of those other occasions where God committed mass murder because he couldn't cope with the majority of the worlds population not believing in him.
This is the great benefit of the "myths" that have come to us, Pastabake. You can choose to sympathise with people whose hearts were utterly and completely corrupt to such an extent that the very existence of humanity was threatened, or you can choose to sympathise with a being who rescued humanity from such a fate so that YOU would get your shot at life.

Please don't go down the path of giving me hypothetical scenarios about people who were not given a choice or the innocent children who weren't given a choice. For you, they aren't real, because the story is not true. If you thought otherwise you would be intimidated by the power of God, which would then remove your freedom to choose. The "myth" makes it safe and possible for you to FREELY choose.

Cheers,
enegue

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OntheHorizon
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by OntheHorizon » November 13th, 2013, 12:06 am

enegue wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

But the Bible doesn't teach this.

It teaches that God is the source of life and being disconnected from Him leads to death.

It teaches that living in this world in accordance with God's principles, leads to blessing and abundant life for our children and our children's children, and not doing so will lead to suffering and death for the same.

It teaches that if you make an error of judgement and act counter to God's principles, then the chain of discontent that will inevitably lead to suffering and death for your children and your children's children, can be averted if you choose to take the prescribed action.

It teaches that if a person wants to dwell with God, and be a citizen in a realm in which Jesus rules as sovereign, according to the principles of God, then they will never die.

Are you beginning to see how mediocre is your understanding of what the Bible teaches?

Cheers,
enegue
No.

Now you are trying to show that what I said is not true, thank you for finally trying.

You have not succeeded, you have not began to establish that sin/wrong does not require death, you pretty well showed that it does, but that such is completely reasonable. I don't agree with that either but that's a different topic.

"The wages of sin is death" Paul
There is no evil and the only reason we ever gave in to believing in it was because we are good.

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 13th, 2013, 12:17 am

OntheHorizon wrote:"The wages of sin is death" Paul
You are only telling half the story, OTH. What is the rest of the quote?

Cheers,
enegue

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OntheHorizon
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by OntheHorizon » November 13th, 2013, 12:27 am

it says the gift of god is life through Christ.

This concerns what Christ provides for those who accept him and allow him to forget their sins, this does not change that all sin requires death, as it specifically states.

You are providing that sin requiring death is reasonable, that is a different topic.
There is no evil and the only reason we ever gave in to believing in it was because we are good.

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 13th, 2013, 7:17 am

OntheHorizon wrote:it says the gift of god is life through Christ.

This concerns what Christ provides for those who accept him and allow him to forget their sins, this does not change that all sin requires death, as it specifically states.

You are providing that sin requiring death is reasonable, that is a different topic.
Then, what do you make of Jesus' words to Martha:
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

-- John 11:25

"Whoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" Believe thou this, OTH?

Cheers,
enegue

Pastabake
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Pastabake » November 13th, 2013, 8:11 am

enegue wrote:Yes, and they are both self-inflicted.
Clearly you don't understand the concept of coercion and constructive responsibility.
enegue wrote:But, He won't trample on your free-will, Pastabake. He could, but to take you kicking and screaming into Paradise would have you existing there in opposition to Him as you are here. Surely you can see the wisdom and love in telling you what to expect in a realm totally devoid of His input, and then leaving the decision about whether you want to be rescued from such a state, in your hands.
A totally selective reading of the Bible - many of the cults believe that you are either chosen or not! Freewill isn't even mentioned in the Bible. Arguably his mere existence is trampling upon my supposedly freewill. Coercion, bribery and threats don't sit well with the idea of free.
enegue wrote:Let's get this straight, Pastabake. God - the God of the Bible - has opened a door to all those whose hearts desire is to dwell with Him, and to live as a citizen in a realm over which Jesus rules as sovereign, according to God's principles of life. There is no-one standing guard at this doorway to turn people away. There is no need because people have made up their minds about what is on the other side and THEY WILL CHOOSE NOT TO ENTER. You are I can both testify to the truth of this.
Seems mighty strange that I have to give up my 'freewill' to gain entry. Or don't you quite grasp the inherent contradiction of "as long as you 'freely' do what I say you will get into heaven".

Either - you are merely following orders, in which case it doesn't say much about the character of such believers.

Or - That is simply the way you would be even without the knowledge of Gods existence.

Unfortunately this leads to a real problem, because in the first case It seems to be the antithesis of free willed. While on the other hand unless my 'nature' is to naturally (unknowingly) act in accordance to Gods wishes I'm domed and heaven is going to have almost no-one there. Funny thing is Jesus said believe in me and you shall be saved, so I don't really need to worry about such things until I'm on my death bed and then I can just play the odds, belief after all is such a tenuous thing.
enegue wrote:This is the great benefit of the "myths" that have come to us, Pastabake. You can choose to sympathise with people whose hearts were utterly and completely corrupt to such an extent that the very existence of humanity was threatened, or you can choose to sympathise with a being who rescued humanity from such a fate so that YOU would get your shot at life.
Yes, because it highly believable that the totality of the present human race came from a few people with Jewish genes. So what you're saying is that we're all descended from the incestuous off-spring of Noah and his crew and that such behaviour was more acceptable to God than the multitudes that he killed because they exercised their freewill in a manner that displeased him. So much for freewill!
enegue wrote:Please don't go down the path of giving me hypothetical scenarios about people who were not given a choice or the innocent children who weren't given a choice. For you, they aren't real, because the story is not true. If you thought otherwise you would be intimidated by the power of God, which would then remove your freedom to choose. The "myth" makes it safe and possible for you to FREELY choose.
Oh how wrong you are. I'm not impressed nor cowed by bullies. If those people were truly evil they would have killed themselves without the need for a flood. That God intervened shows that they weren't going anywhere soon and his ire was not that they were evil but that they had given him the bird.

Lets not forget that as God is all powerful the human race was NEVER under threat, nothing is beyond his capabilities. If God had wanted to be truly impressive he could have made Mars habitable and put Noah and his crew there or visa a versa.

Fundamentally you are playing a game. You know that if we don't do what God wants then we will be killed either by direct action, negligence or inaction on the part of God. Instead of placing the locus of responsibility upon the unreasonable demands of a petty God you twist it to make it the fault of those that don't do as they are told.

Every person any dictator has ever killed died not because the dictator was responsible for killing them but because they freely chose not to do the right thing in the eyes of the dictator. As you have said, they all just killed themselves.

enegue
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue » November 13th, 2013, 7:01 pm

Pastabake wrote:enegue said:
Let's get this straight, Pastabake. God - the God of the Bible - has opened a door to all those whose hearts desire is to dwell with Him, and to live as a citizen in a realm over which Jesus rules as sovereign, according to God's principles of life. There is no-one standing guard at this doorway to turn people away. There is no need because people have made up their minds about what is on the other side and THEY WILL CHOOSE NOT TO ENTER. You are I can both testify to the truth of this.

Seems mighty strange that I have to give up my 'freewill' to gain entry. Or don't you quite grasp the inherent contradiction of "as long as you 'freely' do what I say you will get into heaven".
Your free-will enables you TO CHOOSE TO ENTER THE DOOR, if that is your desire. You won't go in if you see no profit in doing so.

You want to eat your cake, and keep it. To allow that God would be choosing to infest heaven with the same plague that infests this creation. No. It's better to leave the infestation here and provide a way to get out it for those who want it.
Pastabake wrote:enegue said:
This is the great benefit of the "myths" that have come to us, Pastabake. You can choose to sympathise with people whose hearts were utterly and completely corrupt to such an extent that the very existence of humanity was threatened, or you can choose to sympathise with a being who rescued humanity from such a fate so that YOU would get your shot at life.

So what you're saying is that we're all descended from the incestuous off-spring of Noah and his crew and that such behaviour was more acceptable to God than the multitudes that he killed because they exercised their freewill in a manner that displeased him.
No. Those words came from you. Nothing I have said remotely resembles them.

It was a matter of necessity. The last man who would participate in the rescue of mankind was Noah, and his life would have been in peril without God's protection. You have to understand that God is not going to do anything for Man without his cooperation. The End of Days will be the same as the end of civilisation at the Flood, but there will be no further rescue attempts by God. He will simply let those who want to continue doing what they love to do, do it until they eventually destroy themselves.

It is clear that Noah's family line lived according to the principles of life that God had given, and that they wouldn't have suffered the same genetic corruption as the rest of the people. There would have been sufficient genetic variation within the eight for the husbands and wives to have other children, and for the children to marry their cousins. Genetic corruption is the only reason brothers and sisters shouldn't marry, other than that incest is not an issue.
Pastabake wrote:enegue said:
Please don't go down the path of giving me hypothetical scenarios about people who were not given a choice or the innocent children who weren't given a choice. For you, they aren't real, because the story is not true. If you thought otherwise you would be intimidated by the power of God, which would then remove your freedom to choose. The "myth" makes it safe and possible for you to FREELY choose.

Oh how wrong you are. I'm not impressed nor cowed by bullies. If those people were truly evil they would have killed themselves without the need for a flood. That God intervened shows that they weren't going anywhere soon and his ire was not that they were evil but that they had given him the bird.
That's not what the story tells us. It says the thoughts and intents of the hearts of the people were only evil continually. What evidence do you have that this was not true?
Pastabake wrote:enegue said:
Lets not forget that as God is all powerful the human race was NEVER under threat, nothing is beyond his capabilities. If God had wanted to be truly impressive he could have made Mars habitable and put Noah and his crew there or visa a versa.

Again, I repeat, God is not going to do anything for Man without his cooperation. As soon as the last man who is willing to cooperate, has demonstrated his cooperation, then will come the End of Days.

Pastabake wrote:You know that if we don't do what God wants then we will be killed either by direct action, negligence or inaction on the part of God.

I know that without God's revelation of the destructive nature of my unchecked inclinations, I would be a force for the continued pollution of this planet, just like the people before the flood. I thank God for his Word and His Spirit and all his people who have cooperated in the delivery of His principles of Life to my end of the timeline. I am grateful for my shot at life.

Cheers,
enegue
Last edited by enegue on November 14th, 2013, 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

Greatest I am
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Greatest I am » November 13th, 2013, 7:44 pm

These show my basic thinking on Jesus and his human sacrifice.
This second clip shows an almost perfect scenario of this situartion from a legal view point.

Any who think they can argue for human sacrifice, lets have a go.
Regards DL

Pastabake
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Pastabake » November 13th, 2013, 10:43 pm

enegue wrote:Your free-will enables you TO CHOOSE TO ENTER THE DOOR, if that is your desire. You won't go in if you see no profit in doing so.

You want to eat your cake, and keep it. To allow that God would be choosing to infest heaven with the same plague that infests this creation. No, it's better to leave the infestation here and provide a way to get out it.
So you don't see the inherent contradiction of the requirement to subsume your freewill in order to be saved?

It's God that wants to eat all the cake, as I've pointed out the Earth would be a far better place without all the religious people. All the problems associated with over population would be gone in a flash, none of the religious people would complain because they would find themselves in heaven and have already shown their cooperation to leave Earth. A win win for all concerned.

You are also implying that this all perfect omni terrific being that made everything is constrained and limited waiting until the last man bows down to surrender his freewill.

I'm also concerned that you think it more appropriate to kill people rather than let them kill themselves/each other. Thinking that killing someone is less of an infringement of their freewill than transporting them to a teraformed Mars is just bizarre.
enegue wrote:No. Those words came from you. Nothing I have said remotely resembles them.

It was a matter of necessity. The last man who would participate in the rescue of mankind was Noah, and his life would have been in peril without God's protection. You have to understand that God is not going to do anything for Man without his cooperation. The End of Days will be the same as the end of civilisation at the Flood, but there will be no further rescue attempts by God. He will simply let those who want to continue doing what they love to do, do it until they eventually destroy themselves.
Considering how badly the last rescue attempt turned out I guess we should all be grateful.
enegue wrote:It is clear that Noah's family line lived according to the principles of life that God had given, and that they wouldn't have suffered the same genetic corruption as the rest of the people. There would have had sufficient genetic variation within the eight for the husbands and wives to have other children, and for the children to marry their cousins. Genetic corruption is the only reason brothers and sisters shouldn't marry, other than that incest is not an issue.
There is nothing clear about this at all. If you knew anything about genetics you'd know that a viable population cannot come from such a small incestuous group. Not to mention that the rules specifically forebodes having sex outside of marriage and sex with your neighbours wife is a definite no no. So however it went down Noah and co were just as much sinners as everyone else.

The flood showed that God could not have cared less about 'freewill' because he sure didn't ask those that he drowned whether they wanted to be killed or not.
enegue wrote:That's not what story tells us. It says the thoughts and intents of their hearts were only evil continually. What evidence do you have that this was not true?
And we're going to take the word of self confessed mass murderer? Whatever Gods opinion of the people, he ignored their supposedly freewilled choice to do what they wanted to do and murdered them in cold blood. He was no better than the worst of the so called sinners.
enegue wrote:Again, I repeat, God is not going to do anything for Man without his cooperation. As soon as the last man who are willing to cooperate, has demonstrated his cooperation, then will come the End of Days.
"Willing to cooperate" that doesn't sound like an exercise in freewill ... God is going to murder everyone that doesn't agree with him. You have a bizarre idea of what "not going to to anything ... without cooperation" means.

I've clearly shown that God does what he wants to do irrespective of what anyone else wants. I'd also point out that no where in the Bible does it specifically state that anyone has freewill. Furthermore, many sensible religious folks absolutely disagree with the idea and they read the same Bible as you.

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Mysterio448
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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Mysterio448 » November 14th, 2013, 3:00 am

The rite of sacrifice was prescribed by the law of Moses, and Jesus gave up his life in accordance with that law. So in order for people to be saved by grace, God used the law of Moses to nullify the law of Moses. The way I understand it, the law of Moses applied to humans and was never specifically meant to be followed by God himself. Why was God following the mandates of the law he invented specifically for human beings to follow in order to nullify the law that he was currently following? Can someone explain to me the logic of this?

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Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Greatest I am » December 26th, 2013, 4:52 pm

Mysterio448 wrote:The rite of sacrifice was prescribed by the law of Moses, and Jesus gave up his life in accordance with that law. So in order for people to be saved by grace, God used the law of Moses to nullify the law of Moses. The way I understand it, the law of Moses applied to humans and was never specifically meant to be followed by God himself. Why was God following the mandates of the law he invented specifically for human beings to follow in order to nullify the law that he was currently following? Can someone explain to me the logic of this?
As above so below.

Are the laws of heaven and earth not prophesied to match in end times? Yes they are. One set of laws only for God and man and for him to say. --- do as I say and not as I do, --- would be a corrupt law.

Regards DL

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