Why is man supposed to be evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Vijaydevani
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Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

A few theists in the forum are convinced that man is intrinsically evil. They are also convinced that man is made in the image of God. So the question is, why did God make a man in His own image, and make him intrinsically evil, considering that God is intrinsically good? Also, if God is all that is good, how did evil get created? If Satan created evil, who created Satan?
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Ruskin
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Ruskin »

I don't think there is a religion that says man is evil but good yet flawed. In Christianity the flaws/imperfections is called sin.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Ruskin wrote:I don't think there is a religion that says man is evil but good yet flawed. In Christianity the flaws/imperfections is called sin.
Ruskin, I was not referring to imperfections. I was referring to a few theists who say that man is evil. But for you, I would raise a question, why and how would a perfect God create an imperfect being in His own image?
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Ruskin
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Ruskin »

Vijaydevani wrote:
Ruskin, I was not referring to imperfections. I was referring to a few theists who say that man is evil.

In Christianity humans are in Gods image so if we're evil God is evil and Jesus would be a thoroughly evil man. Anyone who says man is evil has the wrong idea.

But for you, I would raise a question, why and how would a perfect God create an imperfect being in His own image?
It's caused by a separation from God which allows for freedom of will that's how I would read the Genesis myth.

"For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5

I see the snake as a mixed blessing you will get freewill but you also get sin and morality therefore evil, suffering and death. But you don't get freewill from God otherwise. So that's essentially what Genesis is saying there I don't think ignorant people just made this up to explain what science doesn't understand there is something behind it.
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Lessentropy
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Lessentropy »

Vijaydevani wrote:A few theists in the forum are convinced that man is intrinsically evil. They are also convinced that man is made in the image of God. So the question is, why did God make a man in His own image, and make him intrinsically evil, considering that God is intrinsically good? Also, if God is all that is good, how did evil get created? If Satan created evil, who created Satan?
Try considering a one-one mapping between evil and selfish and good and helping others/the common good.

So, man is created and born selfish/evil. Man can be brought to God and become one who does God's works - or he can stay the way he is/be led astray into the ways of evil/Satan.

As an engineering proposition were you to have God's power to create human like automata capable of reproducing themselves then would you program them to be born selfish/evil/looking out for number 1 or born co-operative, good, caring for others?

God (evolution) had little choice but to have them look out for number 1 - or their DNA would perish in the melee that is life. Have them born trusting, co-operative, expecting others to be good then they will simply become slaves to whoever gets them first. I have much respect for the author of Pinocchio for summing up the human condition.

However, it appears to me that God/evolution/natural selection has arrived at a smarter solution i.e. have them born/created evil (so that they don't get instantly rubbed out in the competition) but give them the capacity to switch/bond/become religious/become brethren in God should they find 'God' i.e. a group of people with God and power i.e. a group that it is worth joining and which they can trust. I rather think that that is what is going on and that the language that you refer to is associated with that situation. What that means in practice is that the new human would tend, in most cases, to pass through rites of passage to join their own tribe. When that tribe becomes a body of millions then the choices available become less clear - except, perhaps, when there is a major threat e.g. war time.

It takes a good deal of work to create the kingdom of God. We have (had?) a close approximation to that in the U.K. (and many other places). However, you do not need to search very hard to find states in which you might readily conclude that Satan was running the show i.e. you are not safe and will lose what you have unless you can stand up to the gangs that are in power. Good men have to deal with evil (i.e. those who would cheat to feed their own interests) in order to get there. On the other hand the temptations of self-interest (Satan's work) take no such effort to produce. Strip out the religious language and look at it from an engineering perspective and you may get what I am saying.
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Theophane
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Theophane »

Vijaydevani:

You can't honesty say that if you know anything about humanity. This question is perverse.
Della
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Della »

Vijaydevani wrote:A few theists in the forum are convinced that man is intrinsically evil. They are also convinced that man is made in the image of God. So the question is, why did God make a man in His own image, and make him intrinsically evil, considering that God is intrinsically good? Also, if God is all that is good, how did evil get created? If Satan created evil, who created Satan?
As I am not one of the "few theists" I am not sure if my answer is really relevant. However, here goes. Firstly I am not convinced that man is made in the image of god or that man is intrinsically evil. Neither am I convinced that there is such a thing as satan, so I would say that if anyone created the concepts of satan and god then man himself created them. I think you need to define what is evil, what you think of as satan and what you think of as god. Also a definition of evil and also what is meant by good would be useful.
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Neznac
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Neznac »

Ruskin wrote:So that's essentially what Genesis is saying there I don't think ignorant people just made this up to explain what science doesn't understand there is something behind it.
I know as well that ignorant people didn't make this up to explain anything. (I moved the rest of my comment to another thread. It was entirely off topic.)
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Ruskin wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote:

But for you, I would raise a question, why and how would a perfect God create an imperfect being in His own image?
It's caused by a separation from God which allows for freedom of will that's how I would read the Genesis myth.

"For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5

I see the snake as a mixed blessing you will get freewill but you also get sin and morality therefore evil, suffering and death. But you don't get freewill from God otherwise. So that's essentially what Genesis is saying there I don't think ignorant people just made this up to explain what science doesn't understand there is something behind it.
No, I will repeat the question, how did a perfect God create an imperfect human in His own image? Even if there was a separation, we should still have been perfect because God cannot create imperfect things.

Also you seem to be suggesting that it is our imperfections which allow for freewill. Had we been perfect, we would not have freewill. If that is the case, if perfection and freewill are inversely proportionate, God is perfect too so how does He have freewill?

-- Updated May 25th, 2014, 12:06 am to add the following --
Theophane wrote:Vijaydevani:

You can't honesty say that if you know anything about humanity. This question is perverse.
How is the question perverse? I am not questioning humanity here at all. You might believe humanity is intrinsically good or intrinsically evil. But if you believe that humanity is intrinsically evil, and if you believe that God created man in His own image, then the question is definitely justified.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Ruskin
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Ruskin »

Vijaydevani wrote:
No, I will repeat the question, how did a perfect God create an imperfect human in His own image? Even if there was a separation, we should still have been perfect because God cannot create imperfect things.
Why can't God create beings who have the freedom to defy him?


Also you seem to be suggesting that it is our imperfections which allow for freewill. Had we been perfect, we would not have freewill. If that is the case, if perfection and freewill are inversely proportionate, God is perfect too so how does He have freewill?
Freedom to be independent from himself?
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Ruskin wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote:
No, I will repeat the question, how did a perfect God create an imperfect human in His own image? Even if there was a separation, we should still have been perfect because God cannot create imperfect things.
Why can't God create beings who have the freedom to defy him?
God definitely can create beings who would defy Him provided you consider defiance of God as the ONLY imperfection human beings have. But again the question would be, why would the being defy God considering that the being is perfect just like God? Since everyone is perfect, there would be no reason to defy God at all.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
enegue
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by enegue »

Vijaydevani wrote:A few theists in the forum are convinced that man is intrinsically evil. They are also convinced that man is made in the image of God. So the question is, why did God make a man in His own image, and make him intrinsically evil, considering that God is intrinsically good? Also, if God is all that is good, how did evil get created? If Satan created evil, who created Satan?
The word "evil" first occurs in the Bible in reference to the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, where it is a noun that refers to a state of being. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they were instantly aware of a different state of being - they felt afraid and ashamed. Fear and shame were new emotions that they hadn't known before.

God didn't create this state of being, it occurred because Adam and Eve used their God given capacity to determine for themselves what was best, and CHOSE to defy God's instructions. So, evil EMERGED from all that was created "very good", as the state of being a person enters when he/she steps outside the safe-haven of God's instructions.

Man was made in God's image with the same FREEDOM God, Himself, had to determine His own path. The difference is God knows the way that leads to abundant life, and Man doesn't. If we want to find it, then we are compelled to ask God to show us the way. However, we are completely FREE to stumble around trying this and that for as long as it takes to realise what's necessary.

Man was NEVER created evil, but on the contrary was created "very good" and approaches perfection with each step that takes him closer to God.

Cheers,
enegue
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

enegue wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote:A few theists in the forum are convinced that man is intrinsically evil. They are also convinced that man is made in the image of God. So the question is, why did God make a man in His own image, and make him intrinsically evil, considering that God is intrinsically good? Also, if God is all that is good, how did evil get created? If Satan created evil, who created Satan?
The word "evil" first occurs in the Bible in reference to the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, where it is a noun that refers to a state of being. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they were instantly aware of a different state of being - they felt afraid and ashamed. Fear and shame were new emotions that they hadn't known before.

God didn't create this state of being, it occurred because Adam and Eve used their God given capacity to determine for themselves what was best, and CHOSE to defy God's instructions. So, evil EMERGED from all that was created "very good", as the state of being a person enters when he/she steps outside the safe-haven of God's instructions.

Man was made in God's image with the same FREEDOM God, Himself, had to determine His own path. The difference is God knows the way that leads to abundant life, and Man doesn't. If we want to find it, then we are compelled to ask God to show us the way. However, we are completely FREE to stumble around trying this and that for as long as it takes to realise what's necessary.

Man was NEVER created evil, but on the contrary was created "very good" and approaches perfection with each step that takes him closer to God.

Cheers,
enegue
If evil is a state of being and God did not create it, who did?
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Ruskin
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Ruskin »

Vijaydevani wrote:
If evil is a state of being and God did not create it, who did?
The brightest of lights will cast the darkest of shadows or something mystical sounding like that.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Ruskin wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote:
If evil is a state of being and God did not create it, who did?
The brightest of lights will cast the darkest of shadows or something mystical sounding like that.
Sorry, I have no clue what you said. If evil is a state of being and God did not create it, who did?
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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